To be clear, I'm not saying it is, I'm saying that people say that key resellers existing are why steam's control of the pc market vs. EGS isn't one. I do think it's a dumb argument (in either direction) but I think it's funny that people are suggesting things that would actually undercut it.
Uh, development costs?
Of course they want a better return. They didn't help fund Shenmue out of the goodness of their hearts.
Compared to other platform changes, it is just another launcher. If Vita or Wii U game backers were simply told they needed to take a couple of extra steps to make their game work I'm sure they'd be elated. I empathize with people who cared that it was on Steam but at the end of the day I don't really buy that it's a significant enough change to warrant a refund.
Borderline is being generous.Lol y'all gotta stop with these bad faith, borderline shitposts
I think Those people would say that that was a small part their argument before EGS entered the market, and now that EGS has entered it, it is inconsequential.
I find it super interesting to see this debate play out though. Its not often that the general public gets to see what the issues are in regulating Markets. Was/is steam a monopoly? Depends on how you define it.
high infrastructural costs and other barriers to entry relative to the size of the market give the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, an overwhelming advantage over potential competitors.
So, never promise Steam codes on Kickstarter again, just "PC" codes, and we could save a lot of heartache in the future.
So simple and yet members keep barging in to complicate things and then sacrifice themselves smhSo, never promise Steam codes on Kickstarter again, just "PC" codes, and we could save a lot of heartache in the future.
So, never promise Steam codes on Kickstarter again, just "PC" codes, and we could save a lot of heartache in the future.
there are no intellectually honest arguments to be made that are pro epic games storeI find it interesting that siding with the epic store is now equated to trolling, even sans misinformed arguments. The tone has shifted dramatically. I'm a fan of that, personally.
I think he's agreeing with the discussion guidelines.there are no intellectually honest arguments to be made that are pro epic games store
so yes you're either ignorant or trolling in my opinion
yes sorry, I'm agreeing with him
This is the EGS version of SteamDB? If so, this doesn't actually disprove that exclusivity wasn't a last minute pre-E3 deal. Deep Silver could easily have decided on a parallel Steam/EGS (and other stores?) release some months ago, updating the build on EGS as they would do on Steam to ensure version parity across both stores. Then decided on an exclusivity deal for some reason at some point before the reveal.
A day later an this whole things still in shambles. Backing off full exclusivity is nice but having some people wait on this loooooooooooong awaited game another full year is garbage. Some people'd snidely say the game was gonna bomb long before any of this an in the end they may be right for completely unexpected an unwarranted circumstances! Good job Ys/Deep Silver, create a problem then "solve" the problem. This minor reversal nor any potential later ones should be giving 'em zero cred.
Steam is one of those things where "market domination" is a better term than monopoly, and this isn't unheard of in the dotcom era. Amazon, for instance, has "market domination" even as it expands to larger and larger market-share. But the fact that both Steam and Amazon have such a grip on their markets isn't inherently negative for the consumer - right now, I'll hasten to add - because neither could be argued to be abusing their position to the detriment of consumers. Amazon leverages its size when it comes to the cut it takes on books, so could be seen as anti-business, but the cost-savings are passed onto the consumer. And Steam does a lot for both developers (though they could do more) and consumers.
It could be argued that both are, to an extent, "natural monopolies" , in that they both forged ahead in the early days of their respective markets, where
But when viewed against Epic, Valve/Steam pales in comparison to a great degree. If Epic wanted to, they could take the slow-and-steady approach, push for as much feature-parity against Steam as is possible, and be a major competitor. They have the money, they have the time (Fortnite may be slowing, but it's not a flash-in-the-pan). Ironically, Epic is behaving more like a monopoly than Valve/Steam, as anti-competitive moves - like exclusivity deals - are the tell-tale sign of a monopoly.
(hope this isn't too off-topic :) )
Yeah, in theory that is possible, but we also know from phoenix point, epic wanted exclusivity straight away. Not unlikely same to be case here or they could've started talks for additional games right after Metro Exodus.
Now bring in the different views on market power between European and US regulators, and you have a very complicated stew of issues.
Uh, you didn't read:
"Update 2: Regarding the original quote on backer refunds, Deep Silver reached out to say this. "Deep Silver joined the project long after the Kickstarter was set up and
therefore isn't in a position to comment on the actions as we are not
involved in that side of the project."
For clarity, we've amended the headline and the original quote below. At this point, no discussion about backer refunds is taking place. Developer Ys Net is closely monitoring Kickstarter feedback.
Update: PR has reached out to add that "All questions regarding the Kickstarter campaign should be directed to [email protected]."
They are passing the buck. So no, Deep Silver ain't doing anything.
Maybe read more than just the url?
Still hoping they'll honor steam keys for backers, at least if the right argument/explanation reaches the devs
Possibly a long shot, but so what
It used to be a much more commonly used phrase, but it still applies today: A Kickstarter pledge is not a pre-order.Ain't that the truth.
I've only KS'd a handful of games. Torment, the 50th Anniversary Nuclear War card game, the glorious Cultist Simulator from Weather Factory, but this has certainly put a damper on any and all enthusiasm I've had for KS as a platform. I was all set to back Weather Factory's sophomore game, "Book of Hours", but now I don't know.
It used to be a much more commonly used phrase, but it still applies today: A Kickstarter pledge is not a pre-order.
It's not some two-way contract that you can rescind if you don't like the way a project is going. It's a donation with a reward. What if you don't get your reward? Sorry, them's the breaks. Kickstarter has no liability, and is really in no position to force creators to refund you or make-good. By the time the bad news arrives, the creator has probably spent all the funding so they probably couldn't give you a refund even if there was a legal basis for you to stand on.
The thing that really blows my mind is that Epic could have gotten something like Destiny 2, something that would have been upsetting for many sure, but totally understandable in the end and something that has clear crossover appeal with the Fortnite generation. They decided to go with the game that no one outside of the fans dared consider funding for over 15 years. Once we are nearing the finish line suddenly Epic cares? Do they legitimately expect the average teen to jump at the chance at getting a sequel to a 20 year old game about asking old people mundane questions and applying for a job at the docks? (the answer is of course they do not)
Look, if I ordered specifically for chicken noodle in a can, and what I get is chicken noddle in a bowl instead, I'll not be willing to pay, even if it's the same chicken noodle instead. Different people have different reasons on why they'd want things. The least a seller could do is actually give the buyer the things they ordered.
"The project might go south" has just always been a risk though, and people have continued to use Kickstarter. EGS is just another wrinkle in the long series of things that can and do go wrong.None of this changes the fact that experiences like this will make people less likely to crowdfund games in the future.
thousands of posts explaining why it's "not just another launcher" and a graveyard full of people who have come before you to try and argue that point, but you think you're going to be the special one who somehow makes that superficial argument coherent and avoid a ban, without ever reading what other people are saying.
Sheesh, have people like you not learned from other shitposters/apologists on this forum who have gotten banned for the same shit earlier?
Read the staff posts.
Look, if I ordered specifically for chicken noodle in a can, and what I get is chicken noddle in a bowl instead, I'll not be willing to pay, even if it's the same chicken noodle instead. Different people have different reasons on why they'd want things. The least a seller could do is actually give the buyer the things they ordered.
I don't see how this can be taken any other way than scummy
Dev: Please give money to fund game
Person: I did it
Dev: OK we'll give you code on whatever you want
Person: Steam pls
Dev: OK
*Years Pass*
Dev: Sorry we're on another thing now
Person: No Steam codes?
Dev: Nope
Person: Well I don't want it, please refund me
Dev: Nope
Person: What the fuck
So, never promise Steam codes on Kickstarter again, just "PC" codes, and we could save a lot of heartache in the future.
I was more happy to splurge $175 on the dream of Shenmue 3, but for reasons I do not understand, installing EGS is too much. I'd rather just not play the game,Most of the people who are passionate enough about a project to spend full price years in advance (sometimes more than full price) are probably not all that concerned about the distribution platform.
Actually, when the backers paid, thats exactly what it said, just PC or PS4 version, there was no store assossiated to the PC. Just later and after the kickstarter campaign had ended, they informed that the PC version would be for Steam.So, never promise Steam codes on Kickstarter again, just "PC" codes, and we could save a lot of heartache in the future.
UuuhhhActually, when the backers paid, thats exactly what it said, just PC or PS4 version, there was no store assossiated to the PC. Just later and after the kickstarter campaign had ended, they informed that the PC version would be for Steam.
So i find these refund requests an overreaction. I understand they changed to a worst store and ppl are upset for that, but they never backed the game on steam, they backed the game for PC.
Official Staff CommunicationShenmue III backers were offered Steam keys in their backer surveys and the fundraiser concluded before the Epic Games Store even existed. There is no reason to argue that backers were not promised a Steam release with part of their pledge. We are not interested in entertaining the conversation to the contrary, so please drop this line of discussion.
It comes down to whether or not we would consider the product defective because of the change. If your chicken noodle kickstarter advertised the product as long-lasting and compact food for the apocalypse that came in can, sure. If it advertised as a delicious soup made by an award-winning chef in a can, that's auxiliary.
Ultimately, opening refunds because "people have different reasons" would be a disaster because it opens up basically anyone to refund for any reason. This boils down to a case of a product being suboptimal but not defective.
I see that point, though I'm not really looking at it from a legal consumer/producer standpoint, just a "that seems like a jerk move" standpoint.Thats the thing with Kickstarter. You can't view it as a buyer/seller relationship in which an order was placed.
Honestly, that sounds really arbitrary. Are there guidelines about this? At what point does a can becomes auxiliary? Is it too much to expect to get something exactly as what a seller tell you're going to get?It comes down to whether or not we would consider the product defective because of the change. If your chicken noodle kickstarter advertised the product as long-lasting and compact food for the apocalypse that came in can, sure. If it advertised as a delicious soup made by an award-winning chef in a can, that's auxiliary.
Ultimately, opening refunds because "people have different reasons" would be a disaster because it opens up basically anyone to refund for any reason. This boils down to a case of a product being suboptimal but not defective.
I see that point, though I'm not really looking at it from a legal consumer/producer standpoint, just a "that seems like a jerk move" standpoint.
THIS IS NOT A PHYSICAL COPY
On this alone they should be getting raked over the coals, even for those handwaving the "different storefront, what's the big dealio?" scenario.
For what it's worth, I specifically asked whether the PC disc would actually be functional or just a glorified download code, and they had this to say last year:
I'm interested in knowing whether they're walking that back or not.
I do not understand why people think EGS is Satan Incarnate like that. Install it, play the game to your heart's content, then uninstall it. Why deprive yourself of something you love over something as trivial as a storefront? Why throw $175 in the trash?
If I spent hundreds on a game I had dreamed about for 15 years I wouldn't care if it came with spyware and a rootkit onboard.
I do not understand why people think EGS is Satan Incarnate like that. Install it, play the game to your heart's content, then uninstall it. Why deprive yourself of something you love over something as trivial as a storefront? Why throw $175 in the trash?I was more happy to splurge $175 on the dream of Shenmue 3, but for reasons I do not understand, installing EGS is too much. I'd rather just not play the game,
Please, read staff postActually, when the backers paid, thats exactly what it said, just PC or PS4 version, there was no store assossiated to the PC. Just later and after the kickstarter campaign had ended, they informed that the PC version would be for Steam.
So i find these refund requests an overreaction. I understand they changed to a worst store and ppl are upset for that, but they never backed the game on steam, they backed the game for PC.
People are not getting what they were sold. Full stop. If Deep Silver were handing refunds, the uproar wouldnt be that much. Heck, a lot of people would appreciate it and maybe consider keep their order. But no, they're not getting what they wanted AND also are being denied a refund. I dont know why that's so hard to understand.I do not understand why people think EGS is Satan Incarnate like that. Install it, play the game to your heart's content, then uninstall it. Why deprive yourself of something you love over something as trivial as a storefront? Why throw $175 in the trash?
If I spent hundreds on a game I had dreamed about for 15 years I wouldn't care if it came with spyware and a rootkit onboard.
If not playing the game could in any way harm Epic/Y's Net/Deep Silver I might get it. But that ship has sailed. Money's been spent, and it ain't coming back. You're effectively trying to boycott a product that you have already bought and paid for.Sorry for having standards, I guess? Turns out I care about more than just mindlessly gobbling down video games regardless of the circumstance. In fact, given that I'm turning my back on SHENMUE III specifically should tell you just how much I care about this issue.
You clearly haven't had to deal with those if you are making that cringe worthy statement.I do not understand why people think EGS is Satan Incarnate like that. Install it, play the game to your heart's content, then uninstall it. Why deprive yourself of something you love over something as trivial as a storefront? Why throw $175 in the trash?
If I spent hundreds on a game I had dreamed about for 15 years I wouldn't care if it came with spyware and a rootkit onboard.
Uh, I would totally reject a much anticipated game if it came with all that.If I spent hundreds on a game I had dreamed about for 15 years I wouldn't care if it came with spyware and a rootkit onboard.
I swear gamers will throw away their life, dignity and security so they can play games. Pathetic.If I spent hundreds on a game I had dreamed about for 15 years I wouldn't care if it came with spyware and a rootkit onboard.