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Sam Smith comes out as non-binary (see staff post for discussion guidelines)
- Thread starter Khaos Prime
- Start date
Perhaps learn the language you're attempting to lecture others on.
Absolutely false. Read some grammar guides, like the most prominent Associated Press guide for example.
Actually no it isnt. For most people 'they' means two or more people.
I didnt mean any offense. Just because you and your bubble are clued up on this doesnt mean everyone is. Infact you probably are in the minority. I learned alot from this thread about non binary people - thats why i said i didnt understand ffs.
Coming into a thread and saying "I don't mean offense, but I don't get it" in relation to someone's identity is offensive. You aren't asking for people to educate you, and you aren't putting in any effort to learn. You're just telling people that identify that way that you see them as strange at best, and not valid at worst. As most of us have experience with people who say that kind of thing word for word and then go on to explicitly say we aren't valid.
How do non-binary people react when they are addressed with the wrong pronoun?
Like, what if Sam Smith get called with a "he" or "him" on Twitter. Do they correct the user every time? Will Sam Smith's fans correct it everytime? What if someone doesn't know.
Not a problem for me mind you, I just wonder.
Are Sam Smith the first celebrities to come out with a preferred pronoun by the way? This is new to me.
Like, what if Sam Smith get called with a "he" or "him" on Twitter. Do they correct the user every time? Will Sam Smith's fans correct it everytime? What if someone doesn't know.
Not a problem for me mind you, I just wonder.
Are Sam Smith the first celebrities to come out with a preferred pronoun by the way? This is new to me.
So, to go off topic a little bit, I'm personally wary of using biology to argue for the validity of trans and enby folks, because on a scientific basis, everything you are is informed by biology (unless you believe in the existence of an immaterial soul), and also because it leads us down some uncomfortable rabbit holes.
On the topic of gender identity and brains, my first issue is that we have trouble even telling cis male and cis female brains apart, and it seems to me that going further to make assertions about trans female vs cis male brains as an exercise in confirmation bias. Just skimming wiki article, there are observational studies done on with sample sizes of like, twenty. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that differences must exist, but I'm not convinced we can show that at the current level of science.
And of course, even assuming that these authors are right and the features of these brains *do* have strong predictive power, what kind of groups are being left out in the study? What about people who identify as trans but *don't* experience dysphoria? What about the enbies?
Going even further, where would this knowledge lead? Are we going to gatekeep people from hormone replacement therapies if their brains aren't trans binary enough? What sort of terrible shit would we do if we could identify transgender brains in the womb?
Also holy fuck that article has waaaay too much Blanchard in it.
There's a level of absurdity regarding the length of discussion on this that I struggle to wrap my head around.
The "they/them" thing would be awkward as hell given that it'd require restructuring of sentences on the fly to get around the non-specificity of using an established pronoun that is typically used to refer to a collective of people in the third person.
"Who are you talking about? The group?"
"No, the individual."
"Oh, his name--
"They-- Their name is _____"
It can be used in place of singular pronouns (as above) but that requires the context to be clear so as for the other to not think they're referring to a thing or collective that lacks a singular identity.
I get not wanting to be pinned down to non-binary terms but this one is just weird and awkward for everyone. Especially as it is more likely to be used in instances when the individual in question is not present.
The "they/them" thing would be awkward as hell given that it'd require restructuring of sentences on the fly to get around the non-specificity of using an established pronoun that is typically used to refer to a collective of people in the third person.
"Who are you talking about? The group?"
"No, the individual."
"Oh, his name--
"They-- Their name is _____"
It can be used in place of singular pronouns (as above) but that requires the context to be clear so as for the other to not think they're referring to a thing or collective that lacks a singular identity.
I get not wanting to be pinned down to non-binary terms but this one is just weird and awkward for everyone. Especially as it is more likely to be used in instances when the individual in question is not present.
Yeah language changes and people adapt to it. It isn't really just a difficult adaptation. People just resist it because people self-concept is too entangled to the idea of gender. Specially men.
In my head its "they" = two or more identities/genders/persons in one body.
In society there are common rules usually to make life easier. Can you imagine a situation whereby every single person had a custom list of pronouns they wanted to be addressed as.
Again:
Understanding anything trans related seems a significant mental leap for you. Perhaps take the time to educate yourself on both the English language and trans issues before reaching inside your ass for more bullshit again.
Oh I can imagine something similar. I'm sure you've heard of the concept of names.
Pronouns aren't being rewritten. It's not like fundamental elements of language are shifting. And, even if they were, they're only shifting to better represent reality.
It's really not that awkward unless you make it that way.
"Who are you talking about?"
"Oh, James"
"Okay, cool. Please continue"
Just like you would do if you were confused who someone was referring to when they used he or him. It already is a singular pronoun, and has been for over 500 years.
The reason that I posted three different sources that all hit on different topics was not to show that we know specifically what makes someone cis and what makes someone trans, but to show that there is a biological component that exists in some way. The twin study on it's own demonstrates that as that is a massive increase between identical twins and not.
The idea that something can be biological does not have to exclude non-binary people either, as they often go through a lot of the same feelings that binary trans people do. I don't feel that dysphoria is a requirement to be trans, but non-binary people are capable of feeling dysphoria, and dysphoria is not what's being tested for in these scenarios, but how the people studied identify later in life.
We aren't going to be anywhere near identifying any brains in the womb any time soon, so I don't really see a point in worrying about that. The point is just to demonstrate to some people out there who don't believe us that no, we are not just making this up. Gender identity is real, and we can demonstrably see that through these studies.
Holy shit I'm so glad to see that someone else has this same line of thinking. It also rubs me the wrong way as a primary argument since it retroactively validates transphobia from before such brain scans existed. I don't wanna derail though because that's both OT and not what KetKat was doing.
It isn't a difficult adaptation? Come on... Expecting everyone else to know and adapt their language usage, something engrained into society over the course of centuries, is absurd.
I'll respect people's wish to be referred to their own choice of pronouns (even an invented one) but at least try to fit it in with established rules of the language you speak.
Sam Smith is setting themselves (even using like this is a little odd) up for a real hard time with this one.
The least offensive thing would be to use their actual pronouns instead of going out of your way to avoid them.
It does not validate transphobia in any way, and I'm not sure how you're reading it like that. We are not capable of brain scans like that right now in present day, and that does not mean that transphobia is valid right now or that it ever has been in the past.
we can tell when people intentionally try to avoid using our pronouns. it sucks. all we want is respect.
Same here, and never heard of Sam Smith either. How am I supposed to remember what pronoun that every random person in the world wants to be used for them?
User Banned (1 Week): Transphobia
My only issue with this shit. Drives me crazy.
I said it can be used in the singular but the context has to be clear. It removes flexibility of the language and limits the vocal expression of the speaker in how they communicate their thoughts.
There's a level of nuance in "they/them" that means this isn't remotely as simple as people would like it to be.
Bullshit. They has existed as a singular third-person pronoun for hundreds of years. You're not the victim here, and you're not arguing in good faith.
it's easy: when someone tells you what their pronouns are, you use them. if you need to ask, do so. why is this such a herculean task for cis people???
Read the thread and appreciate that what the user wrote is patently false.
I don't think they're going to rage or anything everytime they're addressed with the wrong pronoun. They'll understand not everybody knows/remembers about this.
There is a difference between genuine mistakes and lack of respect.
The hard time will not come with making people understand this, but with people who don't want to understand. I think they're used to it, I mean they are homosexual. Won't change much, a branch of people will accept it and move on and another branch will shit on them like they used to do before this.
Now that you know, just try to remember, I guess. It's this simple really.
That's not true. Languages change as dictated through the needs of society as a collective. Gender is biological, that is not an opinion but scientific fact, which is why it became part of language.
They same way humans are capable of remembering a name? It's not hard.
Also, wouldn't the thread title be Sam Smith come out as non-binary? Come instead than comes I mean. Do verbs follow this? Legit question.
Oh look, another nugget of nonsense.
Read the thread if you actually want to educate yourself on anything.
Same way you do for people with gender neutral names / appearances.
No. Gender is social. The moment a men feels like they are not a MEN, they break down and their whole worlds turns appart. That's not a biological phenomena, that's a psychosocial drama. Plus many workplaces already use they as singular, the change is happening.
The important part was "as a primary argument" (which I acknowledge you aren't doing). My line of thinking is that if the main argument against a transphobe is one of science, then the implication is that acceptance of trans identities can be contingent on said science. That's not to say it's not true, but that it doesn't matter. Hope that makes sense, but it would probably be better to take it to PM if you wanna continue this conversation. I got nothing against anything that you've actually posted in this thread.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory Thread Derailment and Hostility Over Multiple Posts in this Thread
Sam Smith seems like they've made this announcement without understanding the nuance of English language. It isn't a surprising thing as many native speakers never have to consciously learn the rules of the language they speak.
As I said before I'd rather they'd use an invented singular pronoun than expect everyone to use an existing easily misinterpreted pronoun.
If "go Google it" dissuades you, you were never interested in being an ally.
you just need to go read like the Associated Press / AP Style Guide or something. Would really help clarify your poor grasp of modern English.