Sajam: "Fighting Games Are Not Inherently Harder to Learn Than Other Competitive Games"

[Keasar]

This post is the perfect example of the things said in the video lol

Click to shrink...

Click to shrink...

Mechanics with weird names like block and parry? You for real? This whole post is so dumb it hurts my brain.

Click to shrink...

And so the cycle continues. These threads always go the same way.

Click to shrink...

Wow @ this galaxy brain post

Click to shrink...

someone call up Sajam again

I need to see his reaction to this

Click to shrink...

Can't say much else than it's what I've felt most of my time sitting down with a fighting game. No other genre gives that sense of dread of a giant wall to climb over in order to do anything useful and not spend 99% of a round being air juggled by your opponent.

 

[Spacejaws]

I just completed the UNIST tutorial (which has like 170 sections or something) and I can see what some posters mean about wierd terminology. Grd bar, TS timer, veil off, chain shifting, vorpal state, EXS, it can be a bit much and this is a game I bought because people said it was easy to learn/hard to master. I've missed some but I think some of these things are normal concepts with wierd names and yea it doesn't help me trying to remember what is what.

After completing the tutorial (fuck 7-14) there's a message saying 'congratulations for completing the expert tutorial but you are still not ready to play players online.' and then...that's it! I think they mean you have to work out combos and chain shifts are important honestly I need to go back and redo them now that I'm a bit familair but I thought that message was kinda funny due to this thread.

 

[skillzilla81]

I do find it a bit funny that the refrain over and over again is to blame the players unable to get over the hump rather than the design of the hump itself. If people fall off fighting games faster than other multiplayer games then there is clearly some kind of reason. If it is not harder in an absolute sense it has an extremely bad progression curve.

Plus, a lot of the language used are things used when people talk about real-world, practical skills, which makes it clear why it's so hard to get to an intermediate level. You're using the language of work to describe a competitive game and people rarely are going to play games that way---that the onboarding process sounds like a commitment is pretty indicative of the effort needed. Everyone has finite time, finite mental energy, and when choosing how to spend that time I'm guessing a lot of people don't want to put in that level work before they start enjoying themselves. If the learning process is just going to consist of constantly losing then you need to find ways to make that process enjoyable or edifying in some way.

I've been playing fighting games off and on for 30 years and though I know the basics of the genre, the learning process is still incredibly rough as compared to shooters because the skills are much, much, much more transferable between them. Obviously there are differences, subtle and not so subtle, but if you know how to aim and how to shoot you can play most games in that genre. Fighting games are different though---there is an enormous movelist which is both different between games and between characters within games. So this is both an issue of memorization and an issue of execution. I played an absolute shitton of KOF against my brother ('98 maybe?) and when playing Kensou I'd still forget the direction of moves and would still whiff basic moves.

I am uniquely bad in some ways. I can accept that. But given that I know of a significant number of the conventions of the genre and have some character knowledge, I can only imagine what it's like to start from absolute zero.

Click to shrink...

I dunno...I've pretty much only just played. I haven't utilized a lot of the resources now available. I just grew up in arcades and played the games. That's how I learned. I didn't need to do any of the stuff I've suggested, or anybody else, because I just wanted to play and get better. I paid attention to what I was getting hit by and learned to block. I learned combos on my own, learned everything. I had to deconstruct my play and the people beating me without the help of Youtube, replays, training mode, or any other modern convenience. I honestly think it helped me be way better and understand games differently. It never felt like work because I was always having fun because I think learning is part of the fun. That's the difference between people who actually manage to get good at fighting games and people who keep making these threads complaining about them. For a lot of us, that learning is literally the reason we play. There's nothing more gratifying in this hobby for me than developing skill in a fighting game.

I could beat a large portion of gamers in any fighting game I play, even if I've never played it, just because of the fundamentals I've built in the genre over the years. All skills 100% do transfer over. From SF to GG to SC to Tekken.

And, again, shooters are hard as fuck. I disagree with anybody saying it's as easy as "point and click." To me, you may as well be saying just punch your opponent until they die in a fighter.

 

[closer]

I do find it a bit funny that the refrain over and over again is to blame the players unable to get over the hump rather than the design of the hump itself. If people fall off fighting games faster than other multiplayer games then there is clearly some kind of reason. If it is not harder in an absolute sense it has an extremely bad progression curve.

Plus, a lot of the language used are things used when people talk about real-world, practical skills, which makes it clear why it's so hard to get to an intermediate level. You're using the language of work to describe a competitive game and people rarely are going to play games that way---that the onboarding process sounds like a commitment is pretty indicative of the effort needed. Everyone has finite time, finite mental energy, and when choosing how to spend that time I'm guessing a lot of people don't want to put in that level work before they start enjoying themselves. If the learning process is just going to consist of constantly losing then you need to find ways to make that process enjoyable or edifying in some way.

I've been playing fighting games off and on for 30 years and though I know the basics of the genre, the learning process is still incredibly rough as compared to shooters because the skills are much, much, much more transferable between them. Obviously there are differences, subtle and not so subtle, but if you know how to aim and how to shoot you can play most games in that genre. Fighting games are different though---there is an enormous movelist which is both different between games and between characters within games. So this is both an issue of memorization and an issue of execution. I played an absolute shitton of KOF against my brother ('98 maybe?) and when playing Kensou I'd still forget the direction of moves and would still whiff basic moves.

I am uniquely bad in some ways. I can accept that. But given that I know of a significant number of the conventions of the genre and have some character knowledge, I can only imagine what it's like to start from absolute zero.

Click to shrink...

the idea tho is that rather than the hump existing as an actual in-practice hump, it is largely a mental hump, which definitely exists imo as we can see from multiple testimonials. I don't agree that there is a fundamental difference in pointing and clicking (which is an oversimplification imo) and playing fighting games at a basic level, but I do agree that it can be more frustrating to play fighting games. but to me, it has less to do with inherent mechanics and more to do with how the game gives you pleasure, and how players deal with this. losing in other games can feel more fun for various reasons (depending on the player ofc).

Can't say much else than it's what I've felt most of my time sitting down with a fighting game. No other genre gives that sense of dread of a giant wall to climb over in order to do anything useful and not spend 99% of a round being air juggled by your opponent.

Click to shrink...

that's valid, but i think that is what sajam is trying to get at, that the wall is more mental than actually being inherently more difficult, that the sense of extra difficulty comes more from the player than the actual game

it ofc varies for different players from different contexts

 

[Alienous]

There are fighting games that have such stats. How many people do you think pay any attention to them though?

Click to shrink...

Well I've played at least a little of every 'mainstream' fighting game in the past decade and that certainly hasn't appeared enough to be noticed.

I'm not talking about a statistics menu - I'm talking about a post-game breakdown of measurable inputs and outputs.

 

[closer]

in the end, there is no tutorial that can make up for what the actual meat of competitive gaming is, which imo is decision making. like think of moba tutorials which teach you the basic concepts of movement and whatever, but then think of what you need to learn to actually be successful in game. like fighting games, for mobas I often have to rely on outside sources of information. can learning how a bomb map in CS works actually prepare me for how each gun's recoil works, or when to pre-fire, or popular patterns of movement and rotations? in general I don't think in-game tutorials can be good enough to help ppl be good at any competitive game.

 

[Ishmae1]

The challenge that fighting games have is unique use of controller. Outside of some platformers, you don't use buttons and the sticks in the same way for a fighting game than you do in most other genres. This adds to the mental hurdles new players have to make in that they can't input like they do in most other games.

Leaving terminology aside, the player not only has to learn the ins and outs of a fighting game's rules on how the game goes back and forth between players, they have to learn a completely new way to input that they've not had to deal with before; a fireball motion, SRK's and 360's aren't something you ever input in that manner in other genres*.

(*I'm aware some platformers like SOTN use these - I can't think of a platformer pre-SF I that did more than "up+button" for some specials on that level however)

 

[skillzilla81]

The challenge that fighting games have is unique use of controller. Outside of some platformers, you don't use buttons and the sticks in the same way for a fighting game than you do in most other genres. This adds to the mental hurdles new players have to make in that they can't input like they do in most other games.

Leaving terminology aside, the player not only has to learn the ins and outs of a fighting game's rules on how the game goes back and forth between players, they have to learn a completely new way to input that they've not had to deal with before; a fireball motion, SRK's and 360's aren't something you ever input in that manner in other genres*.

(*I'm aware some platformers like SOTN use these - I can't think of a platformer pre-SF I that did more than "up+button" for some specials on that level however)

Click to shrink...

There are lots of "platform" fighters out there. None as popular as Smash, of course, but not everything plays like SF or KoF.

 

[closer]

it would for sure be interesting to see achievements in fighting games that are just like "do a hadoken!", and get a better sense of how many ppl are buying these games but can't do special inputs. like I do think that ppl who can do the inputs have a hard time understanding how difficult it is for ppl who cant do it no matter how hard they try. but at the same time, I'm having a hard time conceiving of ppl who, say, are able to do a lee sin ward hop kick in league, or who can buy items really quickly in CS, but can't do a hadoken in sf, like in a fundamental way it is just a series of inputs.

for the lee sin kick I have to press: 2 click / w click/ q aim click/ move for angle if necessary r click/ q
for buying in CS I have to: b 4 1 2
for hadoken in keyboard equivalent I have to: s sd d punch

I don't think there is such a big difference, I guess maybe the timing/buffering window?

 

[Mr. X]

There are lots of "platform" fighters out there. None as popular as Smash, of course, but not everything plays like SF or KoF.

Click to shrink...

You gotta remember fighting games were popular after beat em ups were popular. People were use the 2D movement and mashing/combos and the button layouts, etc. Beat em ups are more niche than fighting games nowadays.

 

[Mesoian]

I just completed the UNIST tutorial (which has like 170 sections or something) and I can see what some posters mean about wierd terminology. Grd bar, TS timer, veil off, chain shifting, vorpal state, EXS, it can be a bit much and this is a game I bought because people said it was easy to learn/hard to master. I've missed some but I think some of these things are normal concepts with wierd names and yea it doesn't help me trying to remember what is what.

After completing the tutorial (fuck 7-14) there's a message saying 'congratulations for completing the expert tutorial but you are still not ready to play players online.' and then...that's it! I think they mean you have to work out combos and chain shifts are important honestly I need to go back and redo them now that I'm a bit familair but I thought that message was kinda funny due to this thread.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, that stuff is unique to UNIST and is a bit much.

 

[Spacejaws]

To be fair, that stuff is unique to UNIST and is a bit much.

Click to shrink...

Yup I agree! Most fighting games have terminolgy that fits with each other like a super move and a rage mode. UNIST is a bit like peoples worst fears for this sort of stuff.

 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

At our smash local we see it every week when a new player gets bodied. 1v1 can be crushing for people and it is hard to sit down and then put in a shit ton of work to learn what went wrong.

I definitely had an easier time introducing people to Dota since it is easy to find metrics to show support no matter how small.

 

[Lumination]

for the lee sin kick I have to press: 2 click / w click/ q aim click/ move for angle if necessary r click/ q
for buying in CS I have to: b 4 1 2
for hadoken in keyboard equivalent I have to: s sd d punch

I don't think there is such a big difference, I guess maybe the timing/buffering window?

Click to shrink...

And honestly, to throw a fireball, you can just ride the gate of the dpad and get it done. The leniency in modern fighting games is insane. The insec is way harder to do and it requires aiming through most of it.

 

[Mesoian]

And, again, shooters are hard as fuck. I disagree with anybody saying it's as easy as "point and click." To me, you may as well be saying just punch your opponent until they die in a fighter.

Click to shrink...

Right, and even then it depends on what shooter your playing. Plenty of people out there will, for example, go .500 in any given match of COD and feel accomplished because "hey, I still did something". You can be getting completely dominated the entire game by 1 person, but never really feel that dominance due to the nature of the game, especially in DM and TDM where there are so many moving parts at any given time. With something like PUBG or Fortnite or Epic, you feel those losses a lot more, BR fights being a lot more akin to fighting games, often devolving into awkward 1 on 1's in weird terrain. I see people get just as disillusioned and frustated with Apex as I do in SF5 or Tekken.

 

[Crayon]

I somewhat agree with Sajam but the lack of guidance and pedagogy is the biggest issue in fighting games that does make them significantly harder.

This is a popular Tekken meme, beginners does that often but that's because they have absolutely no guidance. Combos are the only thing they know through osmosis, and they have not even a single idea of what is before combos. They do not even know it exist even if they watch tournaments. Maybe some will understand these but still don't know how to approach it. A beginner could do a korean backdash but not know how to make it useful. They know the movement because they saw it, heard it, find it cool, but they don't know that movement is about keeping a distance and creating situations that are beneficial to you through whiff punishes, poking or other things.

Mobas have stronger osmosis even if they don't have a good tutorial system. They get to understand how the system plays. They need to do a last hit on creeps, they need to earn money, they need to keep their distance. They will get their ass kicked, but I definitely think there is a good learning experience from matches that you will not get in a fighting game to the same extent.

They understand things easily because the tutorial system is the game itself and they can see people in their team doing things they can replicate step by step. The game design promotes a learning curve that is interesting. Playing randoms online in fighting games will not deliver this same amount of learning because it is more intricate. Someone jumping on you constantly will not make people connect their brain cells that they have to use anti-airs. They don't have replays to see what they did wrong, even if they have replays they don't have a structure that makes them understand where their failings are. Fundamentally, I think you do not really learn from your mistakes unless you have a great mindset from the get-go, but this is not the fault of the person itself. It's like people claiming to be bad at maths, it's because they haven't been taught to have a mindset to break problems in smaller problems. They don't even know that there are steps to break them down in the first place. They see weird algebra shit and they give up. I know I did.

There is this lack of pedagogy that makes them harder than they could be even if fighting games are not as hard as you think it is. I admit I don't have a learning attitude, I like to spend time in practice mode and I have learned it doesn't offer me as much benefits as I would have liked than just fighting people. I do learn things and I think there are things that I would have learned much easier if there was some kind of pedagogy associated with the game that is so far removed from making the game easier through easier inputs or the like. It's about something more than simplifying a game.

It's about guiding the player to a direction that promotes a learning environment that isn't present in as many fighting games as you would expect. It's a huge part of game design that should not be ignored. To just teach a player that a fighting game is about learning situations and creating new situations is such a game changer that can change the whole outlook of a player's philosophy towards fighting games and make them better despite not doing anything. Just that can change everything.

I think it is missing and it is something that even video guides will not teach if it's not built into the game itself. Remove the aimlessness that they feel, promote players to have a focus, a goal to meet that is not just about combos but about the entire philosophy of a fighting game and I'm entirely sure it can push beginners to go as far as they want to be. Shooters can deliver that, MOBAs can deliver that. Fighting games can deliver that far easier than these other genres can provide. There is a ceiling that can only be broken when fighting games will be able to teach a mindset.

Click to shrink...

Oh wow. The situation largely down to this. Good post.

 

[JusDoIt]

I'm black belt rank, top 500 in SF30th 3rd Strike on PS4 and I can barely parry two hit fireballs.

I'm Super Diamond in SFV and I can't tech throws to save my life.

Just play the damn game. I'm the laziest player ever. I never lab because all I wanna do is play like five matches after work and then watch The Deuce on HBO. I just hop on ranked and get bopped 53% of the time. I win the other 47% tho.

 

[lucebuce]

and then watch The Deuce on HBO.

Click to shrink...

I wish more people would.

 

[JusDoIt]

I wish more people would.

Click to shrink...

It's the best.

 

[Deleted member 17658]

I'm black belt rank, top 500 in SF30th 3rd Strike on PS4 and I can barely parry two hit fireballs.

I'm Super Diamond in SFV and I can't tech throws to save my life.

Just play the damn game. I'm the laziest player ever. I never lab because all I wanna do is play like five matches after work and then watch The Deuce on HBO. I just hop on ranked and get bopped 53% of the time. I win the other 47% tho.

Click to shrink...

 

[Ternary]

And honestly, to throw a fireball, you can just ride the gate of the dpad and get it done. The leniency in modern fighting games is insane. The insec is way harder to do and it requires aiming through most of it.

Click to shrink...

fireballs aren't bad but whether on a controller or arcade stick i have never been able to reliably pull off a shoryuken input to save my life

i spent ages practicing it specifically and i'll still flub it fairly regularly in matches

 

[Ferrio]

fireballs aren't bad but whether on a controller or arcade stick i have never been able to reliably pull off a shoryuken input to save my life

Click to shrink...

Then you should have no problem with a shoruken. It's just a fireball but you press forward before doing the fireball. Some games it's gotten so easy all you have to do is F, DF+Punch.

 

[Sou Da]

fireballs aren't bad but whether on a controller or arcade stick i have never been able to reliably pull off a shoryuken input to save my life

Click to shrink...

Slightly unrelated but they really need to teach people to make a 'Z', every other description of the motion sucks imo

 

[Deleted member 17658]

To have a good time in shooters:
Move mouse over enemy consistently and click.

To have a good time in fighters:
Okay so you better learn this 72 button input combination that have to be done at a specific timing with 0.21 seconds intervals, you do not wanna go above or below that cause if you do you will either whiff the attack or your opponent will recover from the combo and be able to block again making the rest of the combination completely irrelevant. Also at certain points during the combo you will have to take into account the size of your opponents character and change up the combo about 50 button presses in cause if you don't you will likely aim too high or too low and miss the attack. Oh and if you fail this combination at any point, your opponent will do his and you will loose. And while all this is happening we throw at you like a hundred different mechanics with weird names like Bursts, Block, Parry, Parry Blocks, Cancels, Roman Cancels, Gazpacho Cancels and you also have to keep track of 3 meters placed around the screen. If you don't you will not know what you're able to do at that millisecond of open time while your opponent is barrelling towards you to lock you in another 30 second long combo where you get to do nothing.

At least, that's my experience of it.

Click to shrink...

is this false equivalence? cause this looks like false equivalence...

 

[JusDoIt]

Click to shrink...

It's a lifestyle.

 

[Mr. X]

fireballs aren't bad but whether on a controller or arcade stick i have never been able to reliably pull off a shoryuken input to save my life

i spent ages practicing it specifically and i'll still flub it fairly regularly in matches

Click to shrink...

Everyone I've taught seems to get it when i say forward, then fireball

 

[Actinium]

Fighting games just live in a weird space where they aren't very fun if they're boiled down to the basics but the complex stuff is difficult to learn. Like, ideally a simple double dragon vs fight where there is only like 3 attacks and movement is something everyone can and did learn in the era of beat em ups, no one felt like they couldn't fundamentally express themselves through the controls there, but you throw someone in a modern fighting game where they have like 30 moves and they get blown up for pushing a button and then blown up for blocking and then blown up trying to do exactly the same punish that just blew them up and it's like trying to learn a foreign language without any frame of reference for what's being said. There's nothing on the screen to really help unravel any of it and they have to not only learn it all but then keep applying it to evolving situations at split second speeds over and over for hours and days and weeks and months. It's hard.

 

[J-Tier]

My thumbs are janked, despite that I agree that they aren't inherently harder to learn. They're just inherently harder to teach.

 

[JusDoIt]

Fighting games just live in a weird space where they aren't very fun if they're boiled down to the basics but the complex stuff is difficult to learn.

Click to shrink...

Play Super Turbo. Pick O. Sagat. Throw low tiger shots from full screen and press standing hard kick when they jump.

Nothing is more fun.

 

[Sanox]

fireballs aren't bad but whether on a controller or arcade stick i have never been able to reliably pull off a shoryuken input to save my life

Click to shrink...

Don't try and do any weird stuff like pressing forward then dragging your thumb to down then downforward as if all of it was some weird single motion.

As others already said. Tap forward then just do a qcf motion. Get used to this sequence and just do it faster and faster until its fast enough for the game to register the srk

 

[dancingphlower]

iirc SFIV and SFV let you do down-forward twice to get a shoryuken input

 

[JusDoIt]

iirc SFIV and SFV let you do down-forward twice to get a shoryuken input

Click to shrink...

It's harder NOT to get a shoryuken in SFIV and SFV than to get one.

 

[Ternary]

oh thanks y'all for the advice, that works way better than all the garbage i've seen on online guides in the past. kind of want to challenge my friends to something now

 

[selfReg]

it's funny reading this thread, and I may be in the minority but fighting games are the only sort of multiplayer game that I've EVER cared about. Even when I had no fundamentals, it was the most fun I could get out of gaming, period. Beat downs come with the territory, but eventually you hand them out too.

 

[alexiswrite]

Street Fighter V tells you how successful you are with both attack moves (shown below) and defensive moves ("Defense Data: Defense Rate"). This info is part of your profile.

MK11 is not quite as in depth, but this appears after playing against an opponent and can be useful because looking at your side shows how successful your attacking strategy was, while looking at the opponent side can tell you where you need to do better defensively.

Click to shrink...

That's dope. Thanks for highlighting it. I think an issue is that for casuals like me and others in this thread, this stuff isn't really presented to potential customers as a notable feature. I followed the MK 11 media cycle pretty closely and I had no idea that existed.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

For people complaining about going online and getting blown up by 30+ combos or whatever. Try practicing the most important fighting game fundamental: blocking. And I'm not being condescending by saying that, I'm serious. Play a match and just block. If you're still getting hit, well there just be a reason right? You were blocking after all.

Watch the replay. Go back to the beginning of the "30+ combo" sequence. How did they get the first hit? Did they hit low but you blocked high? Was it an overhead? Throw? This is how you learn and figure things out.

 

[myco666]

I'm black belt rank, top 500 in SF30th 3rd Strike on PS4 and I can barely parry two hit fireballs.

I'm Super Diamond in SFV and I can't tech throws to save my life.

Just play the damn game. I'm the laziest player ever. I never lab because all I wanna do is play like five matches after work and then watch The Deuce on HBO. I just hop on ranked and get bopped 53% of the time. I win the other 47% tho.

Click to shrink...

There are more than 500 3rd strike players?

 

[JusDoIt]

There are more than 500 3rd strike players?

Click to shrink...

501. I'm 499.

 

[Spacejaws]

Don't try and do any weird stuff like pressing forward then dragging your thumb to down then downforward as if all of it was some weird single motion.

As others already said. Tap forward then just do a qcf motion. Get used to this sequence and just do it faster and faster until its fast enough for the game to register the srk

Click to shrink...

That's wierd. I do the drag motion all the time and it works great for me. Forward then kinda like doing a C motion from the top point of the C, circling anti clockwise and I get motion reliably. If I have to take my finger off foward I either can't do it fast enough or extremly unreliably, especially for special cancels.

 

[gozu]

It's not that fighting games are hard to learn, it's that they're daunting.

It's hardcore brutal 1v1. There's no one else to blame -- not other players and not AI. It's not like in a game where you can get outnumbered by other players and just say it was bad luck. Or you had a shitty teammate. Or that the AI cheated.

Straight on someone else is obviously better than you and it's a zero sum game.

Click to shrink...

I agree.

I am a Street Fighter vet. I've played it since Street Fighter 1. I kicked the butts of many older kids and had my arcade machine turned off on me in anger for "cheesy" play or just for challenging them and ending their CPU run. I've played every single SF game since then. I have won and lost at fighting game tens of thousands of times.

And even today, I have trouble handling ranked losses.

In theory matchmaking should pit you against somebody incredibly close to your skill, so that you have a 50% win/loss with them. And when this happens, it's magic to have a rival. Unfortunately, there are usually not enough players playing to guarantee this. Furthermore, channel live chat is discouraged or prohibited which limits emotional engagement and the social aspect. I had way more fun playing SF4 because of this. I made game friends and we played together often.

People prefer squad games and 8-player races where 7 out of 8 people "win" by not being last in the rankings.

 

[TimeFire]

oh thanks y'all for the advice, that works way better than all the garbage i've seen on online guides in the past. kind of want to challenge my friends to something now

Click to shrink...

Bop them with your newfound knowledge and sink deeper into fighting game addiction!

Seriously, though. What you're feeling right now is what compels us to play fighting games. "Oh, so that's how you do that. Huh. I'll body my friends/people online with this now!"

You win and then you lose
Then you want to learn something new to cover your bases
x100

 

[Mesoian]

For people complaining about going online and getting blown up by 30+ combos or whatever. Try practicing the most important fighting game fundamental: blocking. And I'm not being condescending by saying that, I'm serious. Play a match and just block. If you're still getting hit, well there just be a reason right? You were blocking after all.

Watch the replay. Go back to the beginning of the "30+ combo" sequence. How did they get the first hit? Did they hit low but you blocked high? Was it an overhead? Throw? This is how you learn and figure things out.

Click to shrink...

Totally.

I feel like in most fighting games, learning how to get in is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more important than learning how to optimize damage.

I don't think I was ever successful with it, but trying to learn Menat built up a lot of good fundamentals for me because her combos were so challenging for me to pull off reliably. If you don't think you're going to be able to get her 15 hit 60% combo, you spend a lot more time making sure you have enough options down to continually do 20-30%.

It's just like football, 3 yards every down will get you a touchdown.

 

[Ferrio]

I agree.

I am a Street Fighter vet. I've played it since Street Fighter 1. I kicked the butts of many older kids and had my arcade machine turned off on me in anger for "cheesy" play or just for challenging them and ending their CPU run. I've played every single SF game since then. I have won and lost at fighting game tens of thousands of times.

And even today, I have trouble handling ranked losses.

In theory matchmaking should pit you against somebody incredibly close to your skill, so that you have a 50% win/loss with them. And when this happens, it's magic to have a rival. Unfortunately, there are usually not enough players playing to guarantee this. Furthermore, channel live chat is discouraged or prohibited which limits emotional engagement and the social aspect. I had way more fun playing SF4 because of this. I made game friends and we played together often.

People prefer squad games and 8-player races where 7 out of 8 people "win" by not being last in the rankings.

Click to shrink...

No in theory you should have a 50% across all matches in your level (once you reach your stabilized level). Expecting to go 50/50 with every individual you meet is impossible, no one would ever move up or down in rankings.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

For people complaining about going online and getting blown up by 30+ combos or whatever. Try practicing the most important fighting game fundamental: blocking. And I'm not being condescending by saying that, I'm serious. Play a match and just block. If you're still getting hit, well there just be a reason right? You were blocking after all.

Watch the replay. Go back to the beginning of the "30+ combo" sequence. How did they get the first hit? Did they hit low but you blocked high? Was it an overhead? Throw? This is how you learn and figure things out.

Click to shrink...

Man. People hate hearing this, but they never do it.

People love to hit buttons. They hate to block. Since the beginning of time, lol.

Why am I getting counter-hit all time? My mans, stop hitting buttons for 5 seconds, haha.

 

[Professor Beef]

I'm black belt rank, top 500 in SF30th 3rd Strike on PS4 and I can barely parry two hit fireballs.

I'm Super Diamond in SFV and I can't tech throws to save my life.

Just play the damn game. I'm the laziest player ever. I never lab because all I wanna do is play like five matches after work and then watch The Deuce on HBO. I just hop on ranked and get bopped 53% of the time. I win the other 47% tho.

Click to shrink...

the laura choice makes so much sense now :P

oh thanks y'all for the advice, that works way better than all the garbage i've seen on online guides in the past. kind of want to challenge my friends to something now

Click to shrink...

one of the best ways to level yourself up is to get a "rival," so to speak. someone who you can train with so you have a much easier way to tell when you both are improving. someone will likely win more than the other person, but the skill level will be close. then, when you finally eke out that win in a first to 10 or whatever, you'll feel like you just climbed Everest.

 

[Deleted member 17658]

"If I'm not pressing enough buttons, how can I have fun?"

 

[Sanox]

That's wierd. I do the drag motion all the time and it works great for me. Forward then kinda like doing a C motion from the top point of the C, circling anti clockwise and I get motion reliably. If I have to take my finger off foward I either can't do it fast enough or extremly unreliably, especially for special cancels.

Click to shrink...

Obviously not saying you can't do it any other way just that getting hung up on trying to do anything like a Z motion might not work for some or you get the situation of can do it on P1/P2 side but not the other side

 

[hey it's that dog]

That's dope. Thanks for highlighting it. I think an issue is that for casuals like me and others in this thread, this stuff isn't really presented to potential customers as a notable feature. I followed the MK 11 media cycle pretty closely and I had no idea that existed.

Click to shrink...

I've been playing SFV regularly since launch and I had no idea at what point they started presenting all those stats. (I don't think it was from the start, but if it was, lord help me in my ignorance). They could definitely do a better job packaging and presenting these numbers in meaningful ways. I think it's unlikely we'll see that happen with SFV, but if this is all groundwork for SF6, then I hope to see this data used to present helpful tips at the very least ("60% of your KOs in the last week have been due to projectiles," "you took 40% of your total damage in that match due to jumping attacks," etc), if not something much more complicated.

 

[Sanox]

"If I'm not pressing enough buttons, how can I have fun?"

Click to shrink...

People like that should play Melty Blood where they can time button presses when getting comboed to lower the damage

 

[JusDoIt]

the laura choice makes so much sense now :P

Click to shrink...

Why learn how to play fighting games when you can just learn mixups?