Fuck Religion. And fuck people victim blaming in here. "But That CaRToon oFfEnDeD the KillerS..." wt actual f.
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Reuters: Three dead in knife attack in French church, woman beheaded
- Thread starter It’s Time To Go
- Start date
Except the first beheading was explicitly about the attacker being offended at a fucking cartoon. And the calls to violence from religious extremists we're seeing on social media and elsewhere also make explicit reference to the cartoons.
No need to try to intellectualize these deplorable attacks.
I can't say I understand the internal politics of France, nor how it deals with its citizens as I've only been to the country once. But the necessity to curb religious extremism and right wing fundamentalism has never been greater than at this time. It threatens societies all over the world. I think of the families that have to deal with their loved ones taken from them in a tragedy like this and I just shake my head at how it just doesn't have to be this way.
Yup. Victim blaming is tolerated surprisingly much in the other thread and also in this one.
The amount of hoops people go through to justify killing a person is absolutely insane.
I agree about the French treatment of Muslims, but the impression I get (and the reporting was a bit confusing so I might be way off) is that the protests and calls for boycotts are just another one of those blasphemy rows that have flare up every now and then. In this particular case fueled by Macron refusing to condemn some cartoons, which is a particularly weird thing to expect in the wake of a religiously motivated murder.
Alternatively, Macron's refusal to remove free speech unlike what some want.
I'm no longer religious, but when I was a Jehovah's Witness I was encouraged to hate others who weren't JWs also. I was told that only we would enter heaven and that people who committed sins were doing it to stop us from getting eternal life and happiness. I am hoping that similar things are not taught in Islam or any other religion, because it can have an effect on others. Being told that someone is against you or you have an enemy. I don't think religion will ever "go away", but I do wish for it to be reformed or used better. We can't live as a society where we are "othering" everyone. Church groups, Mosques and other groups should not condone any sort of anti-social, anti-progress, negative or extreme behaviour before it happens. Have your religion, that's fine, but make sure that nothing is misunderstood and that humanity, life and other people come first. Respect and understanding that we all have differences wether it is race, religion, ethnicy or sex. We're all stuck on this planet, we're all human beings and no one has the right to take another life in any form for any reason.
Funny how Twitter is ok with this tweet. There are lots of deleted (for violating Twitter rules) comments to this tweet, so surely Twitter employees saw it.
I guess you can openly call for the killing of a whole nationality on Twitter now.
I read this clown's thread on Twitter. At times it seemed like he was taking a more moderate stance and that #12 was taken out of context, but nope he vacillates back and forth regularly and demonstrates that he is a piece of shit that the world would be better off without. I reported the tweet and would encourage others to do so as well. People advocating for genocide can do so with fellow nuts face to face, but shouldn't have such a major platform to assist them.
To be clear, this is a tragedy and the people who'd kill others over just cartoons are nuts. But it also seems that people don't want to acknowledge France's persistent Islamophobia beyond the pictures that, especially, French Muslims have to struggle with. That creates and maintains tension.
IMO it's probably just an excuse for leaders like Erdogan to talk tough. If any individual wants to boycott France for any reason I'd support that, but I wouldn't take what any leader says at face value.
IMO it's probably just an excuse for leaders like Erdogan to talk tough. If any individual wants to boycott France for any reason I'd support that, but I wouldn't take what any leader says at face value.
Wow, this is insane. RIP to the victims but I only see this entire situation getting worse and stuck in an unendless loop at this point.
Just think of the type of person who beheads someone.....wow literally sit and think about that.
over a fucking cartoon insanity.
over a fucking cartoon insanity.
I will never understand this. The president of Pakistan compares drawings of Mohammed to the holocaust... yet he is allied with China.
"In western society, the holocaust is treated with sensitivity because it hurts the Jewish community. So that's the same respect we ask for; do not hurt our sentiments by maligning our Holy Prophet. That is all we ask."Pakistani Prime Minister's letter comes in the wake of French President Emmanuel Macron remarks after a French teacher was beheaded in Paris after he had shown cartoons of the Prophet during a class he was leading on free speech.
The outrage should be directed at the Chinese government and sycophantic leaders who are silent and indifferent to the suffering of the Uighurs.
what is free speech to Macron's or to French cuz there is always some red line no one should cross them.
Anti-Israel Activism Criminalized in the Land of Charlie Hebdo and “Free Speech”
Many who wrapped themselves in the 'free speech' banner earlier this year have no genuine belief in that right, writes Glenn Greenwald.
theintercept.com
Court Rules Against French Comedian Dieudonné in Free-Speech Case (Published 2015)
Europe’s human rights court rejected an appeal by Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala, saying laws on freedom of expression do not protect anti-Semitic comments or Holocaust denial.
Because at the end of the day it's not about religion, it's about politics and getting votes. Pakistan needs China - China is building the new silk road and infrastructure out there and most probably Pakistan is in debt to China. Can't scold China. But Imran Khan can scold France over this and get a few votes from the religious right.
Comparing blasphemy to Holocaust denial is a really shitty whatabout to bring up here. This isn't it.Court Rules Against French Comedian Dieudonné in Free-Speech Case (Published 2015)
Europe’s human rights court rejected an appeal by Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala, saying laws on freedom of expression do not protect anti-Semitic comments or Holocaust denial.www.nytimes.com
Dayum, my Malaysian friend is always bitching about how fucked his country is because of the islamic goverment but... God damn.
what is free speech to Macron's or to French cuz there is always some red line no one should cross them.
orAnti-Israel Activism Criminalized in the Land of Charlie Hebdo and “Free Speech”
Many who wrapped themselves in the 'free speech' banner earlier this year have no genuine belief in that right, writes Glenn Greenwald.
Court Rules Against French Comedian Dieudonné in Free-Speech Case (Published 2015)
Europe’s human rights court rejected an appeal by Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala, saying laws on freedom of expression do not protect anti-Semitic comments or Holocaust denial.
Precisely, it seems free-speech is floaty concept. The French love talking about, but it is not always true.
Still, I do believe that Islam or the prophet is not defined by a shitty cartoon in a magazine. But we live in a world where most Muslims, more internally than externally , seem to be let themselves be defined by what whatever shit is drawn or written.
But what the hell does that even mean?
First off this is super fucked up and sad.
Now let's address this continued anti- religious, im not islamophobic but I hate all equally nonsense.
In the west, continued targeting of religious minorities happens. And your statement reads like an equivocation that denies the unique experiences of muslims and christians. You've also generalized the incredibly diverse theologies, cultures, and belief systems of over 4 billion people. You have claimed "religion" is in a crisis - which is nonsense. Religion is a symbolic system of control and guidelines that is constantly changed by it's adherents. It's a tool, a sociological structure. Not only that, Islam has many variations despite what a wikipedia binge would tell you. So what Islam is in crisis? What christianity for that matter? It's a nonsense statment. Your post reads like an "all lives matter" type of equivocation that denies the unique experiences and power heirarchies and privileges that people of dominant faiths enjoy in the west.
Also - I really don't think this site has an an ounce of understanding of religion vs religiosity. Around the world exists a litany of people's lives experiences with their faith. To blame a faith is meaningless. People, opportunists, are to blame. They use a peoples way of life as a tool of oppression to manipulate them. They create black and white realities when even Islam acknowledged a lot more then that in it's beliefs.
The people calling for Muslims to denounce this shit is abhorrent. Idc if you're a muslim who believes thats important. Fine - but that's some shit. To demand that a group as a whole, with as much divisions and sects as a faith must bare that burden of ownership of the violence and extremism employed by radicals who have been manipulated by disgusting opportunists seeking power and control by utilizing ones religion against them is illogical and only enables them further.
Im an atheist - and obviously extremism has no place for discussion. What's happening in france is fucked up and I hope the perpetrators will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. But none of this excuses this whole "fuck religion", or "fuck these outdated beliefs" attitudes that are here. We're frustrated - and I understand and empathise. I have been there. But it is a prejudiced attitude that builds social walls, belittles and degrades, and presupposes some higher understanding elitist mindset.
blasphemy !!! I am comparing Free speech ppl keep saying.... which is BS
first article about how French criminalize any activity against Israel like BDS or going after the Israel gov and was after the post-Charlie Hebdo "free speech" march in Paris.
sec one is about racist guy who use his Free speech right to mock
which lead to convicted of hate crime.
Agreed.
A more apt comparison would be the fact that it's a crime to desecrate the French flag and to disrespect the national anthem. It absolutely is hypocritical.
The BDS thing is 100% bullshit, I agree, hence the fact I didn't mention it.
But Dieudonne getting condemned for being an antisemitic piece of shit? Yeah, miss me, no tears here.
Exactly.
Fuck religion doesnt have to be controversial tho, especially when it motivates attacks like these
Yeah, you can get beheaded for disrepecting the French flag too, complete hypocrisy.
Saying that Islam is not any less backwards than other major religions is akin to saying "all lives matter"? What the fuck is this nonsense?
Islam and Christianity both promote anti-LGBT sentiment, misogyny, and other forms anti-progressive sentiment incompatible with modern society as a matter of dogma. I'm not entirely sure what is so controversial about acknowledging that reality.
Rang true two weeks ago, and still does after reading multi takes in this thread.One of the top comments is from Matt Dillahunty (the atheist experience) and he seems to have a pretty good take on it without shitting on Islam specifically:
French police have arrested someone in Lyon that seemed to be preparing another attack.
So you think blasphemy should become limited as well because it isn't legal to discriminate?
Yes, it is hypocritical. But what you are leading to with this is... what? That depictions of the Muhammad and other forms of "blasphemy" should likewise be punishable by law?
Confirmed that there was an attack in Avignon. The assaillant has been killed, but they're not saying it's of an islamist extremist nature.
Got to say this is a very well thought out post
Not at all what I expected on this site. Especially the bolded. Very good show sir.
I'm sure some of the posts or comments here and elsewhere want every Muslim to denounce the attacks but I suspect the large majority aren't calling out and expecting every single Muslim to do so. They want people that are leaders of the community, politicians, and religious leaders to do so. I'd ask why is that something for them to be avoiding just because it isn't the majority of people believing or committing these attacks? Leaders can have an effect on how people view these attacks and can push people away that were inching closer towards extremism ideology.
I'm not religious anymore but when I was I didn't feel personally responsible for whatever people were condemning Christianity for. I knew those people didn't expect me personally to condemn Christian fundamentalism or terrorism but the church and its many leaders. When people call out Canada for not speaking out against injustices in the world I don't assume they are directly asking me as a Canadian to do so. I'll add I was in a country where I wasn't a minority so maybe my views would be different had I been.
I guess what I am wondering is why shouldn't these attacks be condemned by Muslim leaders? Who else but people in positions of influence could actually reach those who might be going down the path of extremism. I'd argue that if just one person is swayed or made less susceptible to falling into the extremism ideology by having leaders of any religion or country condemning such actions then shouldn't we want them to do so even if it makes people feel responsible that in no way are?
User banned (2 weeks): Inflammatory generalizations. Drive by posting.
When it comes to being terrible, Christian fundamentalists have dominated the past few years.
Looks like Islamists are trying to catch now.
Looks like Islamists are trying to catch now.
Precisely. It is wrong to expect individual Muslims to go out of their way to denounce these attacks, but it's entirely reasonable to expect Muslim leaders to do so, especially when you know that this sort of extremism is being preached in some mosques as we speak.
Faith as a concept is extremely problematic in its own right and our continued insistance on making it a noble trait/thing to have is fundamentally part of the problem. Beliefs without evidentiary warrant is corrosive to democracies, and as sure as "race realism" is unreasonable garbage so are any holy books.
If acknowledging that the very content of most holy books are relics from a primitive time that ... again it bears repeating in case people want to ignore it ... treat women as chattel and endorses slavery, the killing of homosexuals, people working on the sabbath, children disrespecting their parents ...etc, is now considered "elitist mindset" the bar has fallen so much it's not even funny. If the only argument is that they only got here because of a litteral reading of those texts it's not an argument for it's an indictement against those religions. And no amount of tap dancing about hermeneutics will do at this point. These are outdated beliefs but worse they are unwarranted beliefs based on texts that thrive on othering people, they are the chosen by god, the rest are sinners, they have access to truths denied to the rest of us and their unconscionable version of morality is handed down from god himself. Religious people can give me as much "we hate the sin but love the sinners" as they want that shit won't fly.
I am with u... but not everything is "antisemitic", With the way the government of Israel tries to link any kind of accountability or criticism with being anti-Semitic is to downplay of its importance.
But do not forget that the extreme right wing in France will use this and freedom of expression to increase there racist and Islamophobia attacks against muslims.
The muslim community historically/routinely speaks out against beheadings. What is the major headline you're expecting? What decent person doesn't decry these things? Its the most observed religion in the world. Everyone isn't on board with this. The rebuttal is "yeah but these other guys over here are all for it!" always.
Its like taking the MegaCHurches of america or white supremacists christians as the spokes people of Christianity. They aren't seen as a monolith when the extremists shoot up a church. They're one offs. When a muslim beheads someone, its every sect of islam worship responsible for it, seemingly. We blew up the wrong country over 911 because of this sort of attitude. Didn't matter what muslims we were killing. Hate and extremism is happening in all sorts of areas in the world, including some mosques. Shut the individual ones down for doing so if thats what the laws allow you to do. Laws exist and need to be enforced to protect others. They always get a heavy hand and group punishment/shame/intimidation it seems. Hell, I even remember sikhs being beaten up over 911.
But discrimination is already legal in France. Against muslims, that is.
Also I don't get why the thread devolved into the supposed hypocrisy of not being a free speech absolutist? We have limits on free speech to protect minorities from hate speech, those will be used for good or bad reasons by various governments but I'd much rather have that system than what the US has and wait on multinational corporations for arbitration on what's considered ok to say or not.
I never said anything about Muslim leaders. I was talking about posts in here broadly speaking about Muslims or even those who wanted to boycott France due to Macron's comments.
Please listen to people who have lived these experiences. Growing up as a visible Muslim girl in a post 9/11 world, I have a perspective on this that most in this thread do not. Your experience as a Christian is not the same as those of Muslims in France or Europe or America. Christianity enjoys a status of power and neutrality in those countries. Christians are neither marginalised nor a minority. Muslims are. Engaging in behaviour that further ostracises and puts them in danger is fucked up. So I'd rather people stopped equating the two. This goes for you too GYODX , since you quoted a reply to my post and have a long history of speaking over minorities on issues that affect them. Quit it.
The same leaders will not support a boycott of China. I don't agree with France's brand of secularism and do find them at fault for their treatment of minorities. But this whole boycott business is hypocritical.
100%. Fuck the muslim leaders who are okay with genocides in China but throw a hissy fit over cartoons.
