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Realistically, how is Microsoft expected to compete with Sony next generation? Can they?
- Thread starter VinFTW
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I really hope people start treating consoles the same as any other tech devices. The console wars make the community so toxic and actual conversations like this turn into fanboy fodder. I like that Microsoft is branching out in new directions and not competing head to head with Sony. Maybe people will settle down with the blue/green bullshit.
I agree on paper 18% doesn't sound "much better" but who knows maybe other factors in play. Dust Golem obviously has heard stuff no point arguing over something we can't truly know now but will know definitively soon, once we see games running side by side.
On topic: I agree with others that all three of the platform holders are doing their own thing more than ever and there's going to be enough to go around.
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Out of all the people on this forum, I was looking forward to your insight the most. Not going to lie, it's a bit disappointing your contribution is calling my thread silly. I feel this topic is super interesting. It reminds me of PS3's uphill climb against the 360 at the start of that generation. We witnessed so many interesting developments from Sony's adversity. The question of the thread wasn't really supposed to be "can they?" but "how?" (see last line).
For comparison, what we're people saying about Sony's chances next gen when Microsoft was the market leader during the Xbox 360 PS3 era? I don't think many people were expecting the PS4 to be market leader in the fashion it became.
Granted, Microsoft made major missteps leading up to the one's launch which neither party has done for next gen, but don't count Microsoft out yet especially with prices yet to be revealed.
Granted, Microsoft made major missteps leading up to the one's launch which neither party has done for next gen, but don't count Microsoft out yet especially with prices yet to be revealed.
But the premise is flawed. Their ability to compete isn't honestly in doubt, so framing the discussion this way isn't really helpful or conductive to good conversation.
They're literally not competing anymore, each of the big 3 is in their own space. Microsoft is going cloud gaming and doesn't really care where you play, just as long as you're subbed, Sony wants you on PlayStation, and Nintendo has the entire Handheld/Hybrid market. There really isn't an overlap between Xbox and PlayStation at this point, personally anyway.
Where are you getting this from? Didn't MS literally just say that Gamepass isn't profitable yet.
I've hoped for this as well generation after generation, but it won't.
OT. A lot of people thought the ps3 would dominate after the fire that the ps2 was. Sony fumbled and the X360 stood toe toe with the ps3. Anything is possible.
I really think people are doubting the reach xCloud will have. Yes, I know about latency etc. but I'd wager the majority doesn't care/ notice. I know people who game on TV's with ridiculous input lag and don't even know. Also, the technology can only get better. And IF xCloud becomes the dominate force in games streaming, MS will have a huge hand in this space like Netflix.
Getting people into their ecosystem is what's important to them right now, that part I know for an absolute fact (and can share as I think that's obvious). They have a bit more wiggle room here than Sony does, but this is a case of wait to see I guess as neither platform has committed to a price yet.
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"So I pose a question to you, and although it's in the title, it's not "Can they?", it's what can Microsoft do compete with Sony? What should they focus on going forward?"
Again, the ability is not in question, it's how.
1. Xbox games, even in this somewhat disappointing gen, has its unique position with multiplayer (Halo is Halo, Gears has some of the best splitscreen coop content, SoD2 is high budget coop survival, and now SoT, and hopefully Grounded. All those games have momentum, or least a good niche, going forward.
2. They got some niche PC-centric high-production games with little competition in those spaces. Gears Tactics, Halo Wars, AoE, Flying Sim. SoD2 and Grounded fit here as well. They will both sell on steam and be exclusive on console.
3. Still supporting Minecraft well, and they are trying enough ideas in that space (story mode, dungeon, etc, maybe they'll add Steve to a new KI).
4. The BC team hasn't exactly shown what they've done yet. If there are interesting boosts in performance or features, this can still stand out vs PS5. This can be very exciting for a subset of users.
5. Game pass and indie, especially as indie games are having it a bit rough (generalization) on PS store for visibility and sales. People keep saying AAA don't get on GP, which is wrong, considering that KH3, DMC, etc have been on there. Even if most won't be there, high profile indies will be very attractive for many players.
6. xCloud streaming as extra value extended from GP. Also fortunate that Stadia can't get its act together.
They are not banking everything on Kinect this time around (and they survived that one), instead having multiple advantages appealing to different audiences. They won't "beat" Sony unless Sony does something monumentally stupid, but Xbox will do very well still.
2. They got some niche PC-centric high-production games with little competition in those spaces. Gears Tactics, Halo Wars, AoE, Flying Sim. SoD2 and Grounded fit here as well. They will both sell on steam and be exclusive on console.
3. Still supporting Minecraft well, and they are trying enough ideas in that space (story mode, dungeon, etc, maybe they'll add Steve to a new KI).
4. The BC team hasn't exactly shown what they've done yet. If there are interesting boosts in performance or features, this can still stand out vs PS5. This can be very exciting for a subset of users.
5. Game pass and indie, especially as indie games are having it a bit rough (generalization) on PS store for visibility and sales. People keep saying AAA don't get on GP, which is wrong, considering that KH3, DMC, etc have been on there. Even if most won't be there, high profile indies will be very attractive for many players.
6. xCloud streaming as extra value extended from GP. Also fortunate that Stadia can't get its act together.
They are not banking everything on Kinect this time around (and they survived that one), instead having multiple advantages appealing to different audiences. They won't "beat" Sony unless Sony does something monumentally stupid, but Xbox will do very well still.
We have info from devs that this is the closest the 2 systems have ever been in terms of power .
You can even see it in the specs so they will have the better looking 3rd party games the question is will people be able to see it .
As for price i am sure Sony and MS have a idea of what they would like it to be or what they will do to because of each other so perfect sense it not lock down fully until later.
MS will compete with everything as usual but they also going to try and grow in different ways like GP and games on PC .
The market is big enought for everyone to get part of it in different ways .
I don't view Microsoft and Sony in competition anymore to be honest. For Sony, PS5 is the platform they are pushing and getting into their ecosystem will largely depend on you buying their console. For Xbox, the Game Pass is the platform and the Xbox Series S/X are just access points. Using myself as an example, I will be buying the PS5 for their exclusives just because accessing the content requires me to buy the console however with Microsoft and Xbox Game Pass on PC, I am already on their platform and I will probably never buy an Xbox. For others, their access point might be XCloud via smartphones/apps so they don't necessarily need an Xbox to access Microsoft's content either.
I don't really understand why that would be the case, honestly. Isn't the PS5 BOM slightly lower than the SX? So in terms of hardware costs, they should be pretty even. Does MS really expect each individual Xbox owner to be more profitable than PS5 owners, everything else being equal? It just doesn't ring true to me. I know PS4 owners were on average less profitable than Xbox owners this gen, but that was due to the fact that PS4 just sold to a wider audience.
I don't know, I don't personally see them undercutting each other. I feel the most likely scenario, by far, is that both will end up at 499.
The competition will likely be done more through services (ie really pushing Game Pass hard, possibly removing gold, etc), having a lower price (there is no way that Lockhart doesn't come in much cheaper than PS5 and XSX, and I can practically guarantee that MS will at the very least price match the XSX) and with a more powerful system (barring something highly SSD bound, which I doubt will exist soon if at all), MS and the Xbox should be able to regain market share and push gamers towards their service of Game Pass
I think MS is trying to differentiate in ways that maximize their ability to compete, even if I'm not a huge fan of every tactic.
For example, I would rather not see Lockhart - it just doesn't align with my gaming interests - but I think it's probably smart from the standpoint of competitive differentiation, and almost certainly smarter than just going toe-to-toe with Sony on their home turf.
Ultimately, I think they will gain some market share on Sony in the coming generation, but the PS5 will still sell more consoles than any combination of hardware offered by MS.
At the end of the day, I simply want healthy competition. Any scenario where Sony absolutely trounces MS probably is not a good one in the long run.
For example, I would rather not see Lockhart - it just doesn't align with my gaming interests - but I think it's probably smart from the standpoint of competitive differentiation, and almost certainly smarter than just going toe-to-toe with Sony on their home turf.
Ultimately, I think they will gain some market share on Sony in the coming generation, but the PS5 will still sell more consoles than any combination of hardware offered by MS.
At the end of the day, I simply want healthy competition. Any scenario where Sony absolutely trounces MS probably is not a good one in the long run.
Your arguments aren't backed up by the information we have about the PS5 vs XSX.
- XSX is 18% more powerful than PS5 in terms of TF Compute. Perhaps slightly more if accounting for variable clocks. This is likely the smallest gap in compute that any console has ever had, and a lot smaller than any comparisons last gen for original consoles and mid-gen refreshes. The actual differences in what games looked like was already fairly minor, so I don't really see the power gap being a meaningful conversation piece this generation. So how do you make the claim that multiplatform games will perform a "lot better", especially when you acknowledge that PS5 is easier to develop for which can play a large factor in extracting good performance?
- Why would Microsoft be more willing to undercut Sony on cost? For one, PS5 likely has a cheaper BOM. Two, both companies can easily subsidize the cost if they want to be aggressive on price. Historically Sony has been probably the most aggressive in this area and has eaten billions of dollars just to usher in a new generation. Because they are more reliant on the Playstation business, they likely will do whatever it takes to stay competitive and maintain their marketshare. Further, If Lockhart exists, that's more proof that by having a cheaper console (which likely will be subsidized), there's less pressure to do so for the higher end version.
Yep. i feel like people here are getting too cocky lol. When those DF comparisons start rolling in after launch and MS performs better in every single one of them, the narrative is going to change real fast.
RAM bandwidth, gpu power, and a small advantage in cpu power will all but ensure MS never has a worse performing game. Watch Dogs RT will be a great first test because unlike other games that might run at 4k 30 or 60 fps locked, watch dogs with ray tracing will not run at native 4k, let alone native 4k 60 fps.
And while Sony has a fancy SSD, i dont see any devs taking advantage of it for cross gen games beyond faster loading. When people see that cod runs best on XSX, they will naturally gravitate towards it.
Of course, thats why sony is talking so much about the 3d audio and controller features because they know thats where they will have the advantage.
I'm still kinda of confused on the whole power comparison between the 2 consoles. We got people saying the Series X is far more powerful than PS5 and others saying it's even smaller than this generations power gap. So which is it?
Yeah, i dont see how MS can undercut sony with the XSX. I mean the Lockhart was made for the sole purpose of having a cheaper alternative to a more expensive and premiere console. So why would they bother releasing the lockhart if their plan was to sell the xsx for $399 or whatever sony decides to sell their console for.
that said, I am pretty sure Dusk Golem has sources in the industry so he might know more than the information we have currently available.
Just to play the devil's advocate for a bit, it's possible that the sony ssd is far more expensive than we all believe it to be. there is a reason why MS went with a 2.4 gbps ssd. these things are expensive. The difference in GPU/APU costs cant be more than $20 max, and I wouldnt be surprised if the sony ssd is $20 more expensive so they both even out there on BOM. That leaves the ram and i think MS going with just 10 GB of faster ram is a very price conscious decision, and likely a better decision than Sony going with 16 gb of 448 gbps ram. But worse case scenario, they both got the vram for the same cost.
They are stuck selling the xsx with a UHD drive but I think they might be able to take a $20 loss to match sony. i dont know if they can undercut sony or even want to, but looking at the BOM, i wouldnt be surprised if they both have the same BOM for the physical version.
Why do we bother with insiders when this guys already watched the digital foundry videos! /s
HDMI 2.1 VRR will finally give us that precise console real world performance bechmarking results to the same level we compare PC GPU's/CPU's.
You think the next call of duty is going to sell better on the series x?
Am I crazy or did that absolutely not answer my question lol? You're saying MS is making so much money from gamepass that they can take the loss on console sales but MS just said gamepass isn't making a profit yet.
Probably why we haven't seen any third parties running on XBX. Devs begged MS not to embarrass Sony with the huge difference.
I don't think we heard anything about differences in games at the beginning of this gen until the games were in previewer's hands. I doubt any insiders knows anything under the current Covid situation and are just predicting based on what happened with PS4/X1 this gen.
I don't think we heard anything about differences in games at the beginning of this gen until the games were in previewer's hands. I doubt any insiders knows anything under the current Covid situation and are just predicting based on what happened with PS4/X1 this gen.
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nope. but it will help Microsoft compete with sony next gen which is the premise of this thread.
Just a question i was curious what you mean you said naturally flock implied more i guess in my mind, I don't think they look at this how people on forums do they are very happy going in their gamepass direciton
Maybe he does have inside info on this topic, but I'd like Dusk Golem to clarify his stance re: the power debate. I think we all expect better resolution from XSX, but you're still talking about a very minor delta. So a game natively running at 4K on XSX will run just shy of that on PS5 (theoretically), but it's going to be extremely difficult to tell unless you're looking quite closely at the image, which most people do not do if you look at normal viewing distances relative to TV size.
It almost sounded like he had inside information on something that hasn't been revealed. The only thing I could think of is that Microsoft is going to increase the clocks while Sony isn't. But even if that gets Microsoft to~13 TF, the gap would still only be 27% which is smaller than the 40+% we saw this generation.
Furthermore, the CPU and Memory are basically a wash this gen, when they certainly WERE NOT last gen (well, CPU was mostly). The original Xbox One had a significant memory bandwidth disadvantage, and the PS4 Pro also had a significant disadvantage compared to Xbox One X, but the memory bandwidth for PS5 vs XSX seems to be fairly evenly matched relative to compute performance.
Regarding cost, I don't see the SSD being a huge difference in terms of price. Sony has less of it, for one, and their approach is certainly very innovative but I don't think it will mean it is prohibitively expensive. I think the difference in RAM setup for XSX will have a larger price delta than the SSD cost, but that's pure speculation. I suspect those higher bandwidth chips come at a pretty high price which is why MS opted to not be completely unified. Sony ultimately decided to go with one big pool of slower RAM instead. You have to think that MS also probably has a higher cost of miscellaneous components like power supply, cooling, etc. due to a (theoretically) more power hungry APU.
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When I really think about this, I almost see the direct head-to-head being between Sony and Nintendo when we're talking consoles. Microsoft, in terms of how they approach their platform, is exactly that: a platform that exists on Xbox and PC, not just the console alone. So to me "Xbox" is competing with other platforms on PC. They want me playing and buying via Game Pass and their store. If they can do that and take my dollars from Steam, Epic, etc., that's an almost more powerful statement/move. They have a long way to go in that regard, but with the right moves and major improvement to their platform/interface on PC (and by extension, mobile later this month with streaming), it's quite possible.
We should be happy, the industry has grown enough that it can house Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft with any of them 'failing' and this gen proves it.
I'll also add that I think that the people that says that MS doesn't care how many consoles they sell are wrong. The hardware doesn't delivers revenue by itself, but it certainly it's at the center of MS strategy to provide a vehicle for their platforms and games. xCloud in it's first couple of years will be considered as a companion to the console/PC experience not a platform were you game exclusively.
I'll also add that I think that the people that says that MS doesn't care how many consoles they sell are wrong. The hardware doesn't delivers revenue by itself, but it certainly it's at the center of MS strategy to provide a vehicle for their platforms and games. xCloud in it's first couple of years will be considered as a companion to the console/PC experience not a platform were you game exclusively.
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Yeah no. This doesnt happen with Xbox One X versions of games.
People will buy the version with exclusive Timed/30 day DLC (PS5)
well, there's having a mega-huge war chest, & there's having shareholder approval, eh? not always the same thing...
In what universe is an 18% advantage "not much better"? If you told me one car is 18% faster than another car, I'd say that's a lot fucking faster. If I had to choose how to play a multiplat game, I'm picking the console that's 18% faster.
I get that this forum is very pro Sony, but facts are facts. The XSX is a significantly more powerful system.
Depends on how you wanna define compete, doesn't it? If we go by monthly active users they were closer than their hardware numbers alone should show, last time we got numbers. All this said: Do y'all get tired of doom and gloom?
Like I can see a healthy skepticism about MS actually overtaking anybody, but thinking they're worse off than or even as bad off as 2013 like I've seen some say? Damn, let me into your reality. Do they have a vaccine there yet?
Like I can see a healthy skepticism about MS actually overtaking anybody, but thinking they're worse off than or even as bad off as 2013 like I've seen some say? Damn, let me into your reality. Do they have a vaccine there yet?
We should put it into terms they can understand. XSX is a whole PS4 faster.
Receipts? We already got a full specs reveal and we know of the 18% GPU difference between the two. Honestly this whole post reads like the secret sauce or double GPU arguments for the XB1. Not a good look for someone with supposed insider information, buddy.
I'd say a significant "receipt" was Halo Infinite and we saw how that turned out....
It's no wonder people think what they do when there's been little to no Series X gameplay.
I find this "they are not trying to compete with each other anymore" mentality really weird.
If thats the case then for example we wouldnt have a standoff right now with who is going to announce their price first if Microsoft doesnt see Sony as a competitor.
If thats the case then for example we wouldnt have a standoff right now with who is going to announce their price first if Microsoft doesnt see Sony as a competitor.
Saying that don't mean much .
You have say how it will work in games and what the diffidence could be .
For eg can you see the diffidence in Res if one system 18% lower when this gen was 40% and some could not tell and the higher you go the harder it get.
Power is a selling point for sure but you still have to show it and not everyone looks DF.
As for ecosystem they both trying to get people into there ecosystem but MS is going at it a different way right now.
Make no mistake when the time comes Sony will use people being in there ecosystem for years with hardware to shift them to service aspect of it like PSnow.
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