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PS5 and Xbox Series speculation launch thread |OT9| - For flops sake!

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Dictator

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,936
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Thera said:
I am still disagree with you on that. Yes, real world is more shiny than what game tends to represents, but the effect in Control is still too much, especially on matte surface like concrete.
The thing is, there is a big impact between the viewing angle and reflexion. For exemple, in my office, this is a wood flooring. If the viewing angle between me, the floor, and the object is close to 90°, almost no reflexion. But if I do the same thing while crouching, I can see the reflexion becoming more apparent. If I lie down (while managing not to be seen by my coworkers), so the angle is almost 0°, this is a reflexion fest.
But I don't think RT managed that and this is why it is a reflexion fest not matter what is the angle.
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Have you actually played control with RT reflections on to see how and which objects have reflections? Pure concrete that is not wet won't just have a stark reflection on it willy nilly.

Also the game's RT reflections by their very nature include the effect you are talking about. THe Fresnel Effect.
 
Jade1962

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
riotous said:
I mean.. of course markets where MS basically doesn't sell... their sales weren't effected.

Not exactly sure what that is supposed to be pointing out.

edit: To be clear I GET what you are saying; but we can adjust for release date difference the Xbox 360 and PS3 sales, and see that in that generation Sony would have been decently ahead the entire gen (had they released same day and had their same sales) but not totally trounce the 360. So we have no clue WTF would happen without PR blunder.. because it helped give Sony so much momentum.

edit 2: To be clear it was more than jut PR disaster.. but a lot of the PR disaster was tied to their plans in general.. going the TV/Kinect direction cost them big time. All together DRM PR + the choices they made that ended them up with a more expensive / less performant device crushed them.
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Such a disaster and blunder that X1 was the biggest launch ever in Xbox history and the second biggest of all time until Switch. The X1 even outsold the PS4 the following holiday in the US and had a price drop by June of 2014. The idea that always online DRM killed X1 doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Also it's not only hardcore gamers who buy console at launch especially during the holiday. Anyone on PlayStation live during launch year could tell you there were a bunch of casual people streaming nonsense all the time.
 
riotous

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,358
Seattle
Jade1962 said:
Such a disaster and blunder that X1 was the biggest launch ever in Xbox history and the second biggest of all time until Switch. The X1 even outsold the PS4 the following holiday in the US and had a price drop by June of 2014. The idea that always online DRM killed X1 doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
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Apple's to oranges; past generations had massive hardware shortages. Sales in the 6 figures for months because they just couldn't produce enough devices. Things had changed since then; manufacturing landscape is way different, "product launches" and their expectations were different.

You can't look at any generation, compare it to the last, without taking into account all of the other market variables. Sony and MS both had hardware ready day one to outpace many months of their past product launch sales.

The Xbox One's launch could have absolutely destroyed records for months or years without the PR disaster. And it wasn't JUST a PR disaster; the device wasn't as powerful, wasn't really ready.. was expensive and came with an accessory people didn't want to use for games, etc.

In the end nobody KNOWS, it's all guess work.. my anecdotal experience suggests and logic suggests it had a pretty large effect, but I have no way of calculating that.
 
Thera

Thera

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
12,876
France
Dictator said:
Have you actually played control with RT reflections on to see how and which objects have reflections? Pure concrete that is not wet won't just have a stark reflection on it willy nilly.

Also the game's RT reflections by their very nature include the effect you are talking about. THe Fresnel Effect.
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Only saw video of it (including the Nvidia youtube channel ones) because I don't have a gaming PC. So I can't make my own test, saddly.
Thanks for the name of the effect :)
I believe you if it is in already in the game, but I think it is not applied well / enough. For exemple, in that scene, the fresnel effect isn't applied well :
The two scenes after that one, I also think the reflections are way to high. Maybe it is not applied like that in the final game (I don't want to be spoiled so I didn't looked too much).
 
JaseC64

JaseC64

Enlightened
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,008
Strong Island NY
MakgSnake said:
Here is another look. The USB Port seems different..

EN2NjYaX0AEXnH8
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Where is this from? Looks slick!!
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
DrKeo said:
There are no IPC improvements in BC mode, the CPU will perform in boost mode just like an overclocked Jaguar. The same goes for the GPU. PS5 will act as if you took a PS4 Pro and OCed the CPU to 3.2Ghz and the GPU to 2Ghz (if those are the PS5 clocks).
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I don't see how this can possibly be true on the CPU side. They share an identical ISA. The Zen cores are simply beefier cores. They will complete whatever workload is given to them faster per clock than a jaguar will. Unlike GPUs, they don't need explicit intervention by Devs utilising newer functions to get the speed up benefit.

Or are you arguing that a beefy i7 core will match an Atom on the same gaming workload at the same clockspeed?
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Thera said:
Only saw video of it (including the Nvidia youtube channel ones) because I don't have a gaming PC. So I can't make my own test, saddly.
Thanks for the name of the effect :)
I believe you if it is in already in the game, but I think it is not applied well / enough. For exemple, in that scene, the fresnel effect isn't applied well :
The two scenes after that one, I also think the reflections are way to high. Maybe it is not applied like that in the final game (I don't want to be spoiled so I didn't looked too much).
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it doesnt look bad in the game from what I remember. Definitely more subdued.
 
DrKeo

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
I don't see how this can possibly be true on the CPU side. They share an identical ISA. The Zen cores are simply beefier cores. They will complete whatever workload is given to them faster per clock than a jaguar will. Unlike GPUs, they don't need explicit intervention by Devs utilising newer functions to get the speed up benefit.

Or are you arguing that a beefy i7 core will match an Atom on the same gaming workload at the same clockspeed?
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If you disable every piece of silicon that gives the i7 advantage over the atom until just the atom subset of silicon is enabled and it's clocked it the same? Yes, as long as an Atom is a subset of an i7.

How do you think Zen gets its IPC improvements or RDNA get its higher memory efficiency or performance per clock? By changing layouts, adding hardware level instruction, adding cache and so on. If everything from your older hardware is a subset of your newer hardware, if you disable all the new, you get the old again.

From the Mark Cerny patent:
A new device executing an application on a new CPU determines whether the application is for a legacy device having a legacy CPU. When the application is for the legacy device, the new CPU executes the application with selected features of the new CPU that are not present on the legacy CPU disabled
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MakgSnake

MakgSnake

Member
Dec 18, 2019
608
Canada
Burrman said:
Wait and see a launch when there's threa

Are they making a different game or MK?
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I hope it is a new IP. They have discussed a fighting game with all Horror movie characters and heroes. Because they are owned by WB... it is easier to get the rights.

I don't want another MK or even Injustice. I want a new IP.. new fighting game. That would be pretty awesome.

And Ed Boon just tweeted regarding the haptic feed and SSD. So yeah they are def working on something.

I wonder what is RockSteady is doing for the past 5 years. I need the Justice League game.
 
Burrman

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
MakgSnake said:
I hope it is a new IP. They have discussed a fighting game with all Horror movie characters and heroes. Because they are owned by WB... it is easier to get the rights.

I don't want another MK or even Injustice. I want a new IP.. new fighting game. That would be pretty awesome.

And Ed Boon just tweeted regarding the haptic feed and SSD. So yeah they are def working on something.

I wonder what is RockSteady is doing for the past 5 years. I need the Justice League game.
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Ya it seems to soon for a new MK. Would love to see one on next gen hardware though....
 
Md Ray

Md Ray

Member
Oct 29, 2017
750
Chennai, India
DrKeo said:
If you disable every piece of silicon that gives the i7 advantage over the atom until just the atom subset of silicon is enabled and it's clocked it the same? Yes, as long as an Atom is a subset of an i7.

How do you think Zen gets its IPC improvements or RDNA get its higher memory efficiency or performance per clock? By changing layouts, adding hardware level instruction, adding cache and so on. If everything from your older hardware is a subset of your newer hardware, if you disable all the new, you get the old again.
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Zen architecture is completely built from scratch. There will be massive IPC improvement over Jaguar in BC mode.
 
sncvsrtoip

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
Dictator said:
Have you actually played control with RT reflections on to see how and which objects have reflections? Pure concrete that is not wet won't just have a stark reflection on it willy nilly.

Also the game's RT reflections by their very nature include the effect you are talking about. THe Fresnel Effect.
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From your analysis https://youtu.be/blbu0g9DAGA?t=1240 So you tell me that in real life glassy object's behave almost exactly as a mirror ? ;)
 
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M3rcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
702
DrKeo said:
If you disable every piece of silicon that gives the i7 advantage over the atom until just the atom subset of silicon is enabled and it's clocked it the same? Yes, as long as an Atom is a subset of an i7.

How do you think Zen gets its IPC improvements or RDNA get its higher memory efficiency or performance per clock? By changing layouts, adding hardware level instruction, adding cache and so on. If everything from your older hardware is a subset of your newer hardware, if you disable all the new, you get the old again.

From the Mark Cerny patent:
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The only hardware feature I would expect to cause problems would be SMT. Given how abstracted CPUs actually are from the instructions they execute, I can't see different execution hardware being that much of a problem. Now, maybe the CPU would have to report a lower our different set of capabilities than what it actually has when queried, but I'm not sure it would actually have to turn much off for compatibility.

Clocks are a different story, though. I can see taking advantage of the locked and standardized clocks for timing and synchronization.
 
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gothmog

gothmog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,434
NY
Timlot said:
I wonder why MS didn't do more with their controller. A new generation isn't just about better graphics. It's about moving the entire gaming experience forward.
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Many feel the Xbox controllers are fine the way they are. Probably not worth the risk.

I would have liked to see some gyro sensors announced just to bring it up to parity with what most of the other consoles have. There was a whole other thread about this. People really seem to like motion/gyro enhanced aiming.
 

Deleted member 62028

Banned
Dec 10, 2019
298
Timlot said:
I wonder why MS didn't do more with their controller. A new generation isn't just about better graphics. It's about moving the entire gaming experience forward.
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They have the elite controller and they already have rumble triggers.
Let's se how that haptic feedback will be implemented in detail.
It has to be something phones do, to really matter.
 
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