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ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,375
What are you guys talking about..?! Every time I've seen updates installing it's like a few seconds or something. I don't think I've ever sat waiting this long unless it's literally a fresh update and still has to download in the first place.

I dunno. Sometimes updates download and install in rest mode. Sometimes they don't and I have to download them (quickly - I have very fast Internet) and then watch them copy. That most recent GTS patch is the most recent example I can give you of a small patch that had to 'copy' and it took ten times as long as the download did.
 

Deleted member 9584

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,132
Imagine all the cheers Sony will get when they say PS5's new hardware and hard drive will allow for near instant patch copying to fix a problem that they made themselves... a problem no one else has.

I admittedly don't play my PS4 much anymore compared to when I was crazy about it the first few years and this year has so very little play time due to this feature. The times I want to sit and play are interrupted by this crazy patch process. I end up doing something else and forgetting about playing all together and I never return.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
But it doesn't do this copying process on Xbox/Switch? I disagree that 'the only remedy is games getting smaller'. I think Sony can change how the patch games to be like the other consoles.

If I download a 15gb update on Xbox One it doesn't need to copy. It downloads and then you can start the game straight away. It doesn't need to install or copy.

Well I think file-sizes on Switch aren't that big and the Switch isn't comparable anyway since it uses MMC and SD storage and not a mechanical HDD. I'm not sure what the XBOX One does as I never owned one but from what I heard while it doesn't do the exact same copying-process as the PS4 does but updates and downloads can still be a lengthy process. The underlying issue is just file-sizes being that big and most, if not all games packing a ton of small files into few big ones so you have to decompress or atleast delta-patch the file somehow and that requires a backup in case something goes wrong and the bigger the file the longer that process.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,375
I'm not sure what the XBOX One does as I never owned one but from what I heard while it doesn't do the exact same copying-process as the PS4 does but updates and downloads can still be a lengthy process. The underlying issue is just file-sizes being that big and most, if not all games packing a ton of small files into few big ones so you have to decompress or atleast delta-patch the file somehow and that requires a backup in case something goes wrong and the bigger the file the longer that process.

The difference between the PS4 and Xbox One patching process, and the way the PS4 does it better, is that you can't play the game while the update downloads on Xbox One. It locks you out of it while it downloads. On PS4 you can choose to keep playing the game offline while the updates download. Not particularly useful for games like Destiny and Gran Turismo Sport but the option is there..

On the flip side, as I said, there's no installing/copying/decompressing of updates on Xbox One. You get a downloading progress bar and as soon as the update is downloaded you can boot the game.

I guess both have their downsides. But updating games is infinitely faster on the Xbox method. As long as you're ok not playing the game while the patch downloads. I say this as someone who games on both platforms every day. I've never seen a patch installing/copying process on Xbox.

Installing games from disc is famously pretty slow on Xbox. But that's a separate issue and not related to this update copying/installing process.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
The difference between the PS4 and Xbox One patching process, and the way the PS4 does it better, is that you can't play the game while the update downloads on Xbox One. It locks you out of it while it downloads. On PS4 you can choose to keep playing the game offline while the updates download. Not particularly useful for games like Destiny and Gran Turismo Sport but the option is there..

On the flip side, as I said, there's no installing/copying/decompressing of updates on Xbox One. You get a downloading progress bar and as soon as the update is downloaded you can boot the game.

I guess both have their downsides. But updating games is infinitely faster on the Xbox method. As long as you're ok not playing the game while the patch downloads. I say this as someone who games on both platforms every day. I've never seen a patch installing/copying process on Xbox.

Installing games from disc is famously pretty slow on Xbox. But that's a separate issue and not related to this update copying/installing process.

Ah okay yeah that explains it then. Yeah both systems have their pros and cons, ideally I guess it should be a user-decision.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Lol Xbox is the worst for this shit.
yeah, I remember a 600MB Forza update on Xbox One base console... it took without any exaggeration ONE hour to install/apply/download the patch. This is crazy.

Yeah, the copying on PS4 is annoying and wasn't a thing a few years back, IIRC, but it's nothing I couldn't deal with. But bothers me more is the general slow access and copy times of the PS4 HDD. Copying screenshots to an USB drive or copying games from one HDD to the external just takes forever.

Next consoles definitely need SSDs.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Wait....you're telling me installing a game for nearly 30 mins to an hour on the xbox one, is better than 30 secs of "copying" on the ps4? Are you serious?
I guess this topic here is about patches, not installing a game. And that can also take ages on PS4, it really depends on the game. While applying to patches takes ages on PS4 in general. Last week I waited more than 30 minutes for "copying" patch data to GTS.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
It's been around longer to my knowledge, games just got bigger and more complex to make it more apparent.

What you save in bandwidth you make up for in offline copying time. Read the quoted reddit posts a few spots up for info.

PS5 almost assuredly won't "get rid of it" but with faster drives the curve for it to be an annoyance will again be much lessened, until we have yet-bigger games that is.šŸ™ƒ
But 360 already did differential and cumulative patches last gen and it never "copied" actually anything, I don't remember at least.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Gran Turismo Sport updates are like this for me. I download them in some minutes and then should wait 20,30 minutes to installing!
Having installed Gran Turismo 6 from disc to PS3 three years ago - it downloaded more than 10 updates in total and applied *each patch* individually and when we wanted to start the game an INGAME INSTALLER!! started again to apply patches. I guess it's just a tradition for GT games at this point but it apparently got better on PS4, a little bit.
 

Seraphis Cain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
Man I just got GT Sport right after the most recent patch hit. Y'all are making me nervous for the next one, lol.

(But really I should be used to it. I've put up with ESO and Elite Dangerous patches, and those take *forever* to install.)
 

immortal-joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,422
I don't know if it's a timezone thing, but updates for games I'm currently playing always get released, downloaded and installed while I'm sleeping.
 

Tunesmith

Fraud & Player Security
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,939
But 360 already did differential and cumulative patches last gen and it never "copied" actually anything, I don't remember at least.
It did, just not apparent in the same manner. We were dealing with an order of magnitude less data back then, with generally the same drive speeds as we have now, SSDs aside (not to mention for much of the console's lifespan you didn't install games themselves to the hard drive).
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
It did, just not apparent in the same manner. We were dealing with an order of magnitude less data back then, with generally the same drive speeds as we have now, SSDs aside (not to mention for much of the console's lifespan you didn't install games themselves to the hard drive).
An order of magnitude would been that instead of 40 minutes copy job for GTS it would have been 4 minutes for a game on 360 and I never saw that happening, to be honest. In any case, it's bad.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I wonder if this kind of patching approach can survive the transition to SSD next-gen - you might want to limit your writes and rewrites on that tech as far as is possible? Maybe it's not really a big deal though, on that front.
Yeah, that's why I was so concerned with the PC version of Path of Exile's patches taking so long on steam. I wanted the game on SSD since it benefit so much from it but I didn't want it to wear the SSD out. Thankfully the standalone version doesn't patch like steam and it's very fast.
 

ResidentDante

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,076
Oslo, Norway
The download speeds on various platforms is almost useless to argue about. It often depends on how close or fast your nearest location is of the datacenter you are downloading from. So for some people the PS4 will download quicker, while on the same network the Xbox will be slower and vice versa.

The actual prosess of what happens after the download is complete, is a little weird on the PS4 imo, especially the high requirements of empty space on the HDD required.
 

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,995
I don't remember ever seeing anything being copied on my PS4. Maybe it's because I buy physical and don't play those online GAAS games which have constant patches for every little thing.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
Agreed. PSN has been around for what, 10+ years now? I still remember the maintenance which would occur frequently on the PS3 which I never experienced once when using Xbox 360 stores or Steam stores back then. And now this gen every service I use can and does take full advantage of my 250mbps download yet my wired PS4 never does over half that (around ~120mbps). When I was at my old place with a 100mbps connection the PS4 never did more than 30mpbs wireless and ~50mbps wired. It always seems to download half as fast as your maximum speed.
This myth needs to die.'
Fortnite


GTA V
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImUMoEfQA5Y PS4- time 29:26.70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdtFUEh3LFo X One- time 41:26.07

Not only that, if you notice, you can start playing the game faster as well on PS4 after a certain amount has been downloaded.
 

'V'

Banned
May 19, 2018
772
This is not true at all. The copying stuff comes from the HDD speed and only apply patch to a game. This is my install of Batman Arkham Knight PS plus version. It was installing and downloading at the same time. I have a very good internet fiber connection (600 Mbits/600 Mbits) and the PSN test gives me 590 Mbits it is better than speedtest site on Internet(300/350 Mbits). My PS4 is wired... It made patch taking more time than install of a game...


img_2027.jpg


Edit: I installed Batman this morning. I took a photo because this is very fast and it surprise me...
I just tested mine on the speedtest on PC and PS4.
DL on PC was 218mbps
DL on PS4 was 61mbps
I used the same wire with both just to make sure it wasn't related to that.

8i6dGUP.png



 

ascagnel

Member
Mar 29, 2018
2,213
This myth needs to die.'
Fortnite


GTA V
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImUMoEfQA5Y PS4- time 29:26.70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdtFUEh3LFo X One- time 41:26.07

Not only that, if you notice, you can start playing the game faster as well on PS4 after a certain amount has been downloaded.


I re-downloaded Apex Legends (about 20GB) on my near-gigabit fiber line Monday evening. A game that downloaded in <10 minutes on Origin (before my PC died in May) took 90 minutes on the same internet connection on a base PS4, without a game running in the background.

Granted, this is one data point, but I've seen consistently that basically every other service I use on a regular basis (Steam, Mac/iOS App Stores, Nintendo eShop) will hit sustained speeds of >50Mbps (Steam is easily the fastest of the group), but PSN downloads get so slow they drip feed at a single MB every few seconds.
 

Tunesmith

Fraud & Player Security
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,939
That sounds like the stupid thing steam does, where it needs 2x the required space, just so it installs, but once its done it only takes up 1x.
Every program you update does this, on any platform. OS's always allocate space in the event patching is aborted so that it can revert the update and not destroy a pre-existing install.
 

Ukumio

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,415
Australia
I think people are getting caught up too much on download speeds/time. Download speeds can differ by huge amounts based on stuff like location or time of day. While download speeds for you might be very fast, someone of the other side of the country might have speeds that are slower.

I can't speak for everyone, but in my personal experience, as i mentioned in my previous post, patches for Destiny 2 definitely complete faster on Xbox. Not even by a slight margin either. Last night I was on Xbox running around the tower and playing Crucible for a full 40 minutes before my friends on PS4 (and my PS4 patch update).
 

'V'

Banned
May 19, 2018
772
I re-downloaded Apex Legends (about 20GB) on my near-gigabit fiber line Monday evening. A game that downloaded in <10 minutes on Origin (before my PC died in May) took 90 minutes on the same internet connection on a base PS4, without a game running in the background.

Granted, this is one data point, but I've seen consistently that basically every other service I use on a regular basis (Steam, Mac/iOS App Stores, Nintendo eShop) will hit sustained speeds of >50Mbps (Steam is easily the fastest of the group), but PSN downloads get so slow they drip feed at a single MB every few seconds.
Yeah Steam has blazing fast downloads. I just tested Steam download speeds and it was downloading near my full speed. 6GB download in around 3.5 minutes compared to PS4 which was telling me a 7.5GB download will take 10 minutes (almost 3x as long for 1.5GB difference!)



Something must be wrong somewhere cuz I definitely download faster than that.
No it's been like this for ages, across 3 different network setups. I've come to the conclusion it's simply slow PSN download speeds as opposed to something being wrong with every network I use considering everything else runs blazing fast like the Steam example above.
 

Achtung

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,036
I noticed this the other day that updates seem to be taking far longer than I remember.. odd
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,112
No, it was added in an update later. It used to just download slowly and installed. Now it's download fast and copying afterwards.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,431
For those of you having download discrepencies on your PS4: try switching to CloudFlare DNS or Google DNS directly on the system during the network setup. This will help bypass your ISPs DNS if you're still using it (which I bet most (not all) of you are.
CloudFlare DNS:
1.1.1.1
1.0.0.1
Google DNS:
8.8.8.8
8.8.4.4

Sony's downloads use a CDN system to deliver content, so it's entirely possible that your ISP is routing you to a less speedy, or just plain further away and worse, CDN location and hampering your downloads and possibly even your matchmaking.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
I don't remember ever seeing anything being copied on my PS4. Maybe it's because I buy physical and don't play those online GAAS games which have constant patches for every little thing.
This is literally my TV right now and I just decided to play The Witcher 3
img_20190904_1642216skxz.jpg


It's ok to say I've never seen it but believe me and the rest of us that this is a thing - and it took already ten minutes to get to 23 %.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
No it's been like this for ages, across 3 different network setups. I've come to the conclusion it's simply slow PSN download speeds as opposed to something being wrong with every network I use considering everything else runs blazing fast like the Steam example above.
I get fast speeds, it is not a matter of PSN is slow as i've shown you in those youtube videos. People get up to Gigabit speeds. My network 250Mbs on PSN i get up to 150Mbs. The below test is on Wifi btw not hardwired.
09aHEjU.jpg
 
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chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I just tested mine on the speedtest on PC and PS4.
DL on PC was 218mbps
DL on PS4 was 61mbps
I used the same wire with both just to make sure it wasn't related to that.

8i6dGUP.png





Speedtest is slower on wireless notebook than the PSN speedtest on wired. I know people in France with 1 Gbits/s and download are slower than me. I suppose less people on server in Barcelona... I would not be surprise the day I downloaded Wipeout Omega Collection I was alone on the server because it was faster than for Batman Arkham Knicht but I did not take photos... 40 Gb of Wipeout Omega collection downloaded 11/12 minutes and this is the reason I took a photo for Batman. Normally I download in PS app on smartphone but I change of phone number and needed to change my two step verification and was surprised by my download speed for wipeout and decided to take in photo my next PSN download...
 
Last edited:

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,995
This is literally my TV right now and I just decided to play The Witcher 3
img_20190904_1642216skxz.jpg


It's ok to say I've never seen it but believe me and the rest of us that this is a thing - and it took already ten minutes to get to 23 %.

Yeah I have no problem believing it's a thing. At the same thing I've never seen it myself and I've never read anything about it, so I don't know in what situations does it happen. PS3 used to do the copying thing all the time.

Is that a physical disc you're using?
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Yeah I have no problem believing it's a thing. At the same thing I've never seen it myself and I've never read anything about it, so I don't know in what situations does it happen. PS3 used to do the copying thing all the time.

Is that a physical disc you're using?
Nope the game is digital but this really doesn't matter as the disc is copied to disk anyway. After it's installed, a patch is a patch.
 

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,995
Nope the game is digital but this really doesn't matter as the disc is copied to disk anyway. After it's installed, a patch is a patch.

Actually I'm not sure it works that way. As far as I understand it, the disc version and the digital version are technically different "releases" even if they're the exact same game. And this is a complete guess, but the PS4 might handle disc installs and digital downloads differently. There's no reason to believe that they're the exact same and completely identical in how they're handled by the OS.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
Actually I'm not sure it works that way. As far as I understand it, the disc version and the digital version are technically different "releases" even if they're the exact same game. And this is a complete guess, but the PS4 might handle disc installs and digital downloads differently. There's no reason to believe that they're the exact same and completely identical in how they're handled by the OS.
But then I would expect the patches also vary in size which I doubt, to be honest. But you never know, so you might also be right in the end.
 

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,995
But then I would expect the patches also vary in size which I doubt, to be honest. But you never know, so you might also be right in the end.

Not necessarily. Even for identical content, the handling could be different. Which means the patches would be the same, but the patching would be done differently. But again, this is just speculation.
 

FerryF1

Member
Feb 18, 2018
218
I always thought the copying, which was introduced in a firmware update, was a new way of installing and applying a patch. Because i noticed some games didnt grow in size after the copying thing. Example: it used to be like when a 40gb game got a 10gb patch, you got a 50gb game. nowadays with the copying that same 40gb game is only 41 or 42gb after applying a 10gb patch..
So i thought it was a new way of installing patches, so that game files wouldnt go through the roof
 

Stillmatic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
511
Melbourne, Australia
Me just now:

- Put the kids to bed
- Last little bits of housework done
- Sit down to enjoy a few laps in GT Sport
- Hit with "update 1.44"
- under 1 minute to "prepare" and "download" the 108MB update
- 31 minutes to "copy"

Now I'm ready for Netflix. šŸ˜©