Are you seriously comparing ps1 to ps2?
One is 32bit, the other is 128bit.
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Phil Spencer: "the diversity of hardware choice in PC has not held back the highest fidelity PC games on the market"
- Thread starter pswii60
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Are you seriously comparing ps1 to ps2?
One is 32bit, the other is 128bit.
Yep, this is the case for everything except console exclusive games. Anything third party is going to go for wherever the money is, and that isn't the insanely super high end but rather the broad and wide. This is why it has taken so long for 4+ core multi-threading to take off, we are still waiting for the majority of the market to catch up!
...Yes. That is literally my point. Congrats?
The guy said we have this argument every generation. We fucking don't lmao. Especially since in early generations it was undeniable of the differences. I literally just said all this.
It was scrapped for "design" reasons is the last thing i heard about it. When a dev say they scrapped a feature for design reasons I automatically attribute it hardware limitations but maybe I'm wrong here.
Plenty of things are scrapped for design reasons. It may have been hell to design the world to work with it, and maybe it just wasn't working out right.
Anthem famously readded and removed flying a billion times before EA's CEO game and played it and was like put flying in it. Every time they did this too, they had to redesign the levels. That's a lot of work. And if you're having to design levels a certain way to account for a traversal mechanic that isn't working very well, it's better to just remove the mechanic and let the levels be designed without that.
The PS2 isn't 128bit, this is a common misconception. It was a 32bit MIPS core with an additional 128bit vector instruction set that isn't far different from SSE 128bit instructions in x86 CPUs (which are still themselves 32bit CPUs, as a point of comparison). It's still 32bit for the same reason we don't refer to modern x86_64 CPUs in PCs as 512bit CPUs, the word size for all traditional registers and math is still the same 32bit wide instructions (or 64bits wide in 64bit CPUs, of course).
At the very least the marketing was at least halfway honest in relation to the Atari Jaguar's "64bit" console, which was at best argurably 33bit as it was just a dual socket 32bit system.
That's easy to say but it's obviously a publisher decision. Devs are probably excited with the new tech available but the money managers will dictate whether it's restricted to 2013 tech.
Diminishing returns is about effort or cost versus output, so all of the things you list definitely can hit "diminishing returns". For example, if the metric is 'number of NPCs simulated realistically' then you could say that a 512 core 4ghz 2035 CPU could indeed trounce a 128 core 3.5ghz 2028 CPU, but if the metric is 'the perceptual realism of the game simulation' then it's not remotely so clear cut, and even if the perceptual realism was increased by a factor of 5 as the spec increase implied (doubtful, although measuring such a thing would be quite challenging to begin with), there is also the labor / effort / cost component to consider, not just whether that can run on the hardware.
People are spending a lot of time daydreaming about ultra detail rich assets flying past them at tremendous speed as they zoom through a game world, but there are file size and production budget limitations that act as soft caps here. People imagine sweeping shots of ten thousand densely packed NPCs with unique fart fluid simulations, but pragmatic limitations based on how much effort this is and how much it actually impacts game experience will limit this as much as the CPU cycles will.
lmao wait hold up they called it 64 bit because it was a dual socket 32 bit system??? hahaaaa what. I did not know that. That's really funny.
Once again, you're being far too black and white with the wording. Cross gen games won't stop developers maxing out the XSX - they're going to look great. I'm not saying they're not going to be restricted by the last gen, I just mean in terms of being able to crank everything up to 11.
But anyway we know they will start ending support for XB1 very soon, they've said as much. So I'm not sure why a few positive PR words to support their strategy is such a big deal.
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People need to quit using the sub 20 person Bloober and sub 10 person Ebb Software as examples of devs who's games can only run on next-gen hardware. Small teams have a much harder time scaling down to weaker hardware and a harder time in general supporting multiple platforms. If they choose the XSX as a baseline of course it will be really hard for their small teams to optimize for XBO.
1080 doesn't support ray tracing well, not many other features on the rtx lines and new consoles. This is a poor comment - progress will continue but must be flexible thus: scaling graphic engines
... Not clean breaks.
I mean, does anyone not think XSX games are going to look incredible?
I can think they're going to be incredible while still being disappointed there aren't any games out the gate the utilize the hardware in new exciting ways.
I'm wondering if cross gen will be a longer period this time - with the architectures being the same, and BC on both consoles. Maybe not for lead content - publishers will want to move the primary skus to next gen. but there may exist a parallel market on PS4/XB1 for longer, if they can do ports at relatively low cost?
GTA 5 is a game in an open--world in a city not the same constraint at all and the fidelity is far from HZD and I will not talk about Horizon 2. Having tons of generation is hard.
I play games and I have a friend working in the industry as an artist on AAA game. You don't know about what you are talking about if you think what they do in Horizon 2 is the same as Horizon Zero Dawn and will scale like this.
There is a generational leap between Horizon 2 and Horizon Zero Dawn, the second one is looking like a current-gen game at Ultra level on PC, nothing more. And compared to Horizon 2 it will be the same. It will not look good.
Again they need to scale back all LOD in Horizon 2 and they will have tons of added work to do to make it work on PS4.
Horizon Forbidden West [PS4, PS5, PC]
I think he is bothered that the acronym HFW could apply to both Frozen Wilds and Forbidden West. They could of went with "Horizon II No-No West" What if they called it, Horizon: Surviving Journey West ...
forum.beyond3d.com
Better than anything current gen on PC or not.
For a third -party publisher or studio, it made sense. For the first-party studio, the role is to sold new hardware on Sony side, this is not important anymore on MS side if you subscribe to Gamepass the place does not matter. After this is a big difference of strategy maybe Microsoft will have the good one and will sell more Xbox Scarlett than Xbox One maybe it is an error and they will sell less Xbox Scarlett family than Xbox One.
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Aren't you just roundabout saying that hardware that people actually own is indeed what limits or hold back game development?
GTA 5 is a game in an open--world in a city not the same constraint at all and the fidelity is far from HZD and I will not talk about Horizon 2. Having tons of generation is hard.
I play games and I have a friend working in the industry as an artist on AAA game. You don't know about what you are talking about if you think what they do in Horizon 2 is the same as Horizon Zero Dawn and will scale like this.
There is a generational leap between Horizon 2 and Horizon Zero Dawn, the second one is looking like a current-gen game at Ultra level on PC, nothing more. And compared to Horizon 2 it will be the same. It will not look good.
Again they need to scale back all LOD in Horizon 2 and they will have tons of added work to do to make it work on PS4.
Horizon Forbidden West [PS4, PS5, PC]
I think he is bothered that the acronym HFW could apply to both Frozen Wilds and Forbidden West. They could of went with "Horizon II No-No West" What if they called it, Horizon: Surviving Journey West ...
Better than anything current gen on PC or not.
For a third -party publisher or studio, it made sense. For the first-party studio, the role is to sold new hardware. After this is a big difference of strategy maybe Microsoft will have the good one and will sell more Xbox Scarlett than Xbox One maybe it is an error and they will sell less Xbox Scarlett family than Xbox One.
There's no doubt HFW will look technically amazing. Their art direction is also superb, which helps greatly with the overall image. The developers have a reputation dating back to the PS3 for extracting the very best out of the hardware. The images you have posted above are perhaps not the best examples, considering the PS4 version is pretty dark(different time-of-day), and I'm not sure if it is in-game or cut-scene/photo mode.
The HFW image - do we know what we are looking at? A Cut-scene/spliced gameplay? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe we have seen actual gameplay yet, so I look forward to the gameplay reveal for a better comparison.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/16333233/vpavic_070616_1091_0165.jpg)
Xbox boss Phil Spencer on the future of gaming: “The business isn’t how many consoles you sell”
A deeper look at xCloud and Project Scarlett.
www.theverge.com
After Phil Spencer said than sold console is not important for the business goal, if the strategy is not working maybe they will be happy if people subscribe to services on PC or on other place.
It is in game and it is considered as something looking great on HZD. And it helps hide lesser quality of rock assets for example.
We don't know if we did not see gameplay. For example, Spiderman Mile's Morales is like the teaser of spiderman it is gameplay with a cinematic angle.
I think every moment she rides the charger this is gameplay from a cinematic angle. I would not be surprised if the scenes in the desert are gameplay too. I think like AC Valhalla, HFW will have a cinematic camera like RDR2.
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I would not be surprised if this is some gameplay. It seems they improved wind force field technology with whirling winds visible on sand particles near Aloy.
The same here and improvement in wind technology is visible on vegetation. The wind is unidirectional in Horizon. And I think it is gameplay from a cinematic angle.
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This literally contradicts himself in the same paragraph.
Every developer is going to find a line. Cool. Then the game will be designed around that line, and if that line is low enough (for addressable market for example) then it arguably holds back higher end kit.
The argument seems to be 'is more framerate/resolution/detail' holding back or not. If its 'just' graphics then I can see his point kind of. There are plenty of people that like buying 2080tis and turning things up to 11. But thats almost the only world they know. Most/all devs don't develop with a 2080ti as a baseline - so you aren't seeing what might be possible if you used that power for more than just 'more pixels but fundamentally the same as running on a 1050'
Thanks for the reply. They might, in fact, sell a few more PS4 considering the potential down-turn of the world-wide economy after the pandemic.
It is in game and it is considered as something looking great on HZD. And it helps hide lesser quality of rock assets for example.
We don't know if we did not see gameplay. For example, Spiderman Mile's Morales is like the teaser of spiderman it is gameplay with a cinematic angle.
I think every moment she rides the charger this is gameplay from a cinematic angle. I would not be surprised if the scenes in the desert are gameplay too. I think like AC Valhalla, HFW will have a cinematic camera like RDR2.
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I would not be surprised if this is some gameplay. It seems they improved wind force field technology with whirling winds visible on sand particles near Aloy.
nothing shown from horizon forbidden west was true gameplay, where you can control the character.
Surprise surprise, first party engines utilizes new hardware features earlier than everyone else...
It's about progressing the engines. Ubisoft couldn't make and release an AC:Unity level AC game in 2013... hell Unity wasn't even ready for its 2014 release. If Ubisoft didn't make black flag for 360/ps3, but it still releases 2013, it doesnt end up looking like Unity instead, because ACs engine hadnt progressed to that point yet.
Trying to compare a game to it's sequel for the sake of this argument is nonsense.
If were trying to make discussion about how Microsoft's first party will be approaching cross-gen development, we should be using the available apples-to-apples comparisons like Titanfall, Watch Dogs and Rise of the Tomb Raider.
Rise of the Tomb Raider is really the perfect example. It was designed from the ground up for next gen, then ported to 360. Visually, the xbox one and xbox 360 versions are a generation apart. the next gen version took advantage of next-gen rendering techniques. In addition to a higher resolution, better performance and better textures, It had the PBR, the sub-surface scattering, the deformation, a more advanced water simulation, higher Vegetation density, more geometric detail, a more advanced lighting model, better shadows, tressFX hair, motion blur, reflections, the sorts of things chris 1515 say will be held back... weren't in this case and likely won't be by MS first party
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Sony will likely continue to sell PS4s for a few more years. Maybe less in some markets as people migrate to PS5. BC helps I guess - you're not worried about games you buy being stuck on your PS4 so you can buy in late, and know your games will move across whenever you switch to PS5
Again you don't know, I think every shots with Aloy riding a machine are gameplay from a cinematic angle out of probably the scene with the hermit crab or the fox. This is just a generational leap like every beginning of a generation.
This is what I think is maybe gameplay.
And the desert scene could be gameplay.
And the funny thing if HFW release like I think Q1 2021 or Q2 2021 this will be from a technological point of view the Killzone shadow Fall of Guerrilla Games with tons of improvement possibility.
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I'm not so sure about the platform holders/developers doing anything radically different from previous generations. Game development takes typically 2-7yrs. It's unrealistic to expect a game part-way through development on current-gen to be changed in any material way to take full advantage of the next-gen launch. So naturally, we have cross-gen and moving forward as new projects come onstream developers have to decide if they game ambitions can support previous-gen. Some will, others will forego altogether. At this point, we hopefully will start to see from the big-budget AAA games all the things we have been excitedly waiting for.
Again it will be easy to verify soon, probably August. If my assumptions are wrong you can mock me. But I am confident and I see some weakness in the rendering for example some tree in snow environment are PS4 asset. Aloy hair aren't perfect.
Some parts are very detailed but other parts this is exactly how they do hair on PS4, a hint see around the shoulders.
This I can agree with. I suspect developers at that time will be constrained more by their own ambitions, as budgets/manpower will be the limiting factors and not necessarily the hardware.
This has been an interesting discussion thread but I really just see this all as PR speak anyway. I try not to read too much into it.
Phil was also essentially touting that next generation is about new experiences beyond just pretty graphics. But the SX version of first party games for the first two years or so will just be prettier graphics of Xbox One games. Unless there are major design disparities between the games on SX and XB One.
Phil was also essentially touting that next generation is about new experiences beyond just pretty graphics. But the SX version of first party games for the first two years or so will just be prettier graphics of Xbox One games. Unless there are major design disparities between the games on SX and XB One.
They'll play at higher frame rates with fast loading / no loading screens too so they'll feel much better
I don't think you understand how good it will feel to play current 30fps game's at 60fps. At least the games i play like Destiny will be a night and day difference. Especially if there is a higher frame of view.
Next gen is so much more than "fast SSD" but i think people just fell for that re-purposing of the conversation
I think Phil is talking about reduced input lag and high framerate, such as 60fps or even 120fps gameplay. This for me greatly enhances the immersion and feel of games. I'm already experiencing this kind of think on PC.
I'm not so sure about the mandate to support older platforms beyond 2021. Hellblade 2 is next-gen only from MS 1st party. Hopefully we will get more details about this title in July. Its a 30fps game, but clearly looks next-gen.
Game feel will be improved on those games that can run at higher framerates, the consoles themselves are improving they with several techniques to reduce input latency also. We will see improvements of 30ms+ In a number of
Games
So much this. Phil calling it a "console war meme" just means people can quote that and make people with a different opinion (based on 30 years of industry fact) look like fanboys.
"Generations don't matter" is just as much a marketing bullet point to MS this gen as the "fastest SSD on Earth" stuff is from Sony.
Some games released in the coming years will not be released on last gen hardware. Not because it's impossible but because the process of downporting them eventually gets to a point where developers artistic vision is lost. If Sony could downport the new Ratchet to PS4's 100+ million install base without sacrificing the games design goals and artistic vision don't you think they would?
Go look at Rise of the Tomb Raider on xb1 then on xbox 360 and tell me they both use models built for 360. The game was built for current gen, utilizing current gen rendering techniques. then ported back to last gen.
The xbox one version had better geometry, better textures, more vegetation, tessfx hair simulation, better draw distances, better lighting and shadows, better water simulation and better effects - taking full advantage of the modern hardware. the sort of improvements you argue arent possible if the game also releases for the previous gen. The last gen version of the game lost those features, but retained the gameplay. The fidelity of RotT on current gen was in no way compromised by the existence of the last gen port. THIS is what Phil is talking about.
This is what we can expect from MS first party, who has been using this backwards porting approach for the entire generation, first with Titan Fall, Forza Horizon 2, and Tomb Raider. Then with Games that Launch on PC and X1X like Forza Horizon 4 and Gears 5.
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And they have two teams to do the game, again do two versions of the game is more expensive. Most of the teams will neglect the next-generation version.
I take the bet PS5 first party-games or Battlefield 6 will look better than cross-generation games and when MS will stop do cross-gen games, the fidelity will be much better. HellBlade 2 is not a cross gen game for example.
Not quite. PS2 general purpose registers are 128bit, natively executing 64bit arithmetic, and (very) limited 128bit. Bus was 128bit as well. Depending on what definition you use, its a proper 64bit core in most cases with some arguments for 128bit.
32bit with extensions was other consoles of that era.
Are we not talking about MS first party making cross-gen games? Why do we care how much Microsoft is willing to spend on development when the discussion is on whether or not last-gen ports will hamper fidelity? Why are we talking about "most teams" and not specifically Xbox Studios?
Crossgen developers neglecting to take advantage of nextgen visual potential isnt the result of technical limitations of old hardware- it's a result of logistical and economical limitations (and engine deficiencies)- limitations that Microsoft has proven to be willing to eliminate on multiple occasions.
Hellblade2 could the same porting approach as RotTR - taking full advantage of XSX visual capabilities, then getting scaled down for xbox one - this wouldnt hamper Hellblade2's visual potential, but it would wither hamper its gameplay potential or the Xbox One version would make serious gameplay concessions, like we saw with Forza Horizon 2.
Fidelity will surely get better when MS stops doing crossgen, but not BECAUSE MS has stopped doing crossgen. Itll be because the engines they use will continue to improve over time. Just like how Shadow of the Tomb Raider looks better than Rise of the Tomb Raider. It's not the lack of a last gen port, it's the improvement of the engine.
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Hellblade 2 is far from release and it will not release on the current generation. In Xbox Event you will see impressive trailer from later game many with Unreal Engine 5.
Same I take the bet the most impressive Xbox game will be next-generation only and this is not a risky bet.
I too am shocked this keeps coming up. Seems obvious to me too. As it seems obvious Spencer works at a business that wants to sell you things more than it wants to uphold a reputation for radical honesty ;)
Reputation don't pay the bills.
Im aware about HellBlade2s development. My point is that HellBlade2s fidelity isnt a function of the lack of a current gen port.
IF we were on a different timeline, one where they decided to port it Hellblade2 back to xb1, the decision would mean gameplay concessions for the xb1 version, not visual concessions for the XSX version.
Your bet is irrelevant. The most impressive xbox game will probably arrive several years after launch... during a period where there would be no reason to even consider an xbox one port as nearly everyone will have moved on. So yea, it will be next-gen only by default.
PS: one of the championed features of UE5 is how scalable it is. Epic claims the ps5 demo can run on a cellphone - and obviously the graphics are scaled back to make that happen.
Again UE 5 is a very different engine without normal maps for example. This is not the case of other engine for the moment.
An example of this is Forza Horizon 2, totally uncompromised on XO, butchered in terms of game design and features on 360.
This point doesnt matter.
We've already seen MS take this exact same porting approach with Source Engine, Foundation Engine, Unreal Engine 4, and ForzaTech engine. Unreal5 just makes this thing that they've BEEN DOING FOR YEARS even easier.
Chances are slip space engine was built to streamline taking this approach as well.
And most of MS studios are using unreal now...
That's right!
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