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Pelosi’s Coronavirus bill is fucking useless.
- Thread starter BackLogJoe
- Start date
- COVID
She's not going to go out there and say the bill is bad when it hasn't even been passed in the Senate yet. Don't be crazy.
So they're bad?
And you didn't identify the rest of the items. I would assume it's because you know you're wrong and made a brash, overbroad statement.
It follows that you think the failings of a government that Pelosi has no control over are her fault -- she did the best she could with the tools she has. Again, I pose a binary answer question (reading is fundamental): are those things good or bad?
Once (if) other pieces of government do their job like she has then you start seeing more effect. Until then, maybe it makes more sense to deride the ones keeping it from coming into fruition. And take a step back in these very frustrating times.
It's not wrong, though. 20% of workers being covered by this is not nearly enough to do with a crisis of this magnitude.
So the answer is... "They should already be doing it, so we won't use tax dollars to force them."???
Pelosi needs to be primaries out. You would think her feet are made of concrete with how much she drags them on things.
There's a difference between "fucking useless" and "not nearly enough".
"The US now faces a crisis that disproves everything the country believes about itself."
www.theatlantic.com
Trump is amplifying this, but even without Trump, the US still has a system that absolutely unfit for the challenges of the 21st century.
We're watching a world power falling apart because of its reluctance to change, because of religiously deluded trust in "the market" and its utter moral bankruptcy when it comes to societal solidarity organized through government.
The Coronavirus Called America’s Bluff
Like Japan in the mid-1800s, the United States now faces a crisis that disproves everything the country believes about itself.
www.theatlantic.com
Trump is amplifying this, but even without Trump, the US still has a system that absolutely unfit for the challenges of the 21st century.
We're watching a world power falling apart because of its reluctance to change, because of religiously deluded trust in "the market" and its utter moral bankruptcy when it comes to societal solidarity organized through government.
If the purpose was to help contain and actually helping out people during this outbreak, it's definitely on the lines of "fucking useless."
Please don't @ me with the list of things it does. I'm well aware.
Just to address the title of the thread:
"pelosi's bill" is in another era — a disgraceful inadequate compromise that does too little, too late and is best described as better than nothing.
In this post Gingrich, post-Tea Party McConnell Trump era - it's a surprisingly muscular and vital piece of emergency legislation which is extremely practical and will have immediate beneficial impact on the woefully inadequate administration response. It's better than the bill the GOP tried to force through and the 40 Republicans who voted against the bill AND the presidential guidance are receipts to that effect.
The title and content of the OP is a valid critique but completely ignores the context and does EXACTLY what the GOP and media have done- which is to present both parties as equally guilty of the same behaviors and effectively tell people that Dems are exactly 50% of the problem with governance.
that's nonsense and exactly why we got to this point in the first place. We should not be amplifying that nonsense.
THE bill is a compromised Frankenstein shitshow and we need to eradicate the extreme ideologues and grifters from the government in 2020.
you can argue about what the Dems shoulda woulda coulda all the livelong day but to paraphrase a recent GOP war criminal, "we fight with the army we've got not the one we'd like to have"
"pelosi's bill" is in another era — a disgraceful inadequate compromise that does too little, too late and is best described as better than nothing.
In this post Gingrich, post-Tea Party McConnell Trump era - it's a surprisingly muscular and vital piece of emergency legislation which is extremely practical and will have immediate beneficial impact on the woefully inadequate administration response. It's better than the bill the GOP tried to force through and the 40 Republicans who voted against the bill AND the presidential guidance are receipts to that effect.
The title and content of the OP is a valid critique but completely ignores the context and does EXACTLY what the GOP and media have done- which is to present both parties as equally guilty of the same behaviors and effectively tell people that Dems are exactly 50% of the problem with governance.
that's nonsense and exactly why we got to this point in the first place. We should not be amplifying that nonsense.
THE bill is a compromised Frankenstein shitshow and we need to eradicate the extreme ideologues and grifters from the government in 2020.
you can argue about what the Dems shoulda woulda coulda all the livelong day but to paraphrase a recent GOP war criminal, "we fight with the army we've got not the one we'd like to have"
What was there to shut down? And furthermore how dare you claim I'm lying for emotional manipulation.
OP
OP
It's fucking useless. The companies that qualify for federal relief are medium sized companies. And as seen on here, many people have expressed that their medium sized companies are offering to pay them to stay home. Amazon, fast food, grocery stores, etc, the companies where they need this support the most get to skate. They get to force their employees to come to work sick. They potentially propagate this deadly illness.
The title of the thread is some real fuckery.
"Pelosi's bill" - last I checked, this bill was Congress' bill passed after negotiations with the admin and Republicans, a pared down version of the original House Dem proposal.
Whatever your feelings on the bill (it's clearly not enough and I hope the continuing bills do more to keep shoring up support for people), I think it's a real shit thing to follow the narrative the right will is going to push.
They will be more than happy to stoke flames among the left, pushing criticism against Pelosi as the cause of this. Meanwhile, they will also push the message that they're helping the people with the bill. Watch a difference in Pelosi's Bill and Trump's Bill when it becomes convenient for them. Saying stuff like this plays into their hands and only increases their leverage.
People's anger at the insufficiency of the bill should be directed at Congress and the Admin as a whole (I would argue particularly the admin as they seem to have Republicans on the leash regarding support among the base).
Instead of bullshit bickering about what was done, and hypothetical negotiation tactics, our side should be unifying our message and anger towards those actually making it harder for Americans to be supported.
"Pelosi's bill" - last I checked, this bill was Congress' bill passed after negotiations with the admin and Republicans, a pared down version of the original House Dem proposal.
Whatever your feelings on the bill (it's clearly not enough and I hope the continuing bills do more to keep shoring up support for people), I think it's a real shit thing to follow the narrative the right will is going to push.
They will be more than happy to stoke flames among the left, pushing criticism against Pelosi as the cause of this. Meanwhile, they will also push the message that they're helping the people with the bill. Watch a difference in Pelosi's Bill and Trump's Bill when it becomes convenient for them. Saying stuff like this plays into their hands and only increases their leverage.
People's anger at the insufficiency of the bill should be directed at Congress and the Admin as a whole (I would argue particularly the admin as they seem to have Republicans on the leash regarding support among the base).
Instead of bullshit bickering about what was done, and hypothetical negotiation tactics, our side should be unifying our message and anger towards those actually making it harder for Americans to be supported.
A lot of people would get sick and die without a bill at all. That's the actual context of this bill passing. Choosing between this bill and a better bill wasn't what was on the table. It was this worse bill or a perpetual fight with Republicans with the potential of an even worse bill and more and more people getting sick in the meantime. Also Pelosi and democrats aren't in charge of the supply of tests. When tests do become available, making them free is worthwhile.
I never said it was. Doesn't mean anyone needs to celebrate it.
It also doesn't mean anyone needs to call it an abject failure either. I'm not sure about the circles you run in but I personally am not ready to kiss and marry Pelosi over this. I don't consider her a superhero. Doesn't mean I don't see how it helps people and how it's limitations are the fault of the inhumane political ideals and goals of Republicans. I think Democrats are often too flaccid in their battles with the GOP but I'm also able to recognize when they get a strike in edgewise considering who their opponents are.
If your big plan for getting more progressive things passed is waiting for independent and republican voters to get mad enough at republican politicans that they change their minds then you're going to be waiting a long time. Not to mention the fact that this bill still might not pass through the senate unscathed.
Nice "both sides are the same" drive by. GTFOH with that nihilistic bullshit.
Honestly, I'm putting OP on ignore because this thread title is terribly misleading and not what we need right now.
The bill doesn't really force them. It makes it impossible for them to fire them if employees took on paid leave. Taxpayers subsidize most of the paid leave up front, with the corporation taking on a smaller portion of that cost, which they get reimbursed for with tax credits.
Agreed.
The ruling class has more in common with the opposition parties than with you. They will sooner fight to protect their mutual privilege than their own benefit. We all know Trump sucks but people are still defending Pelosi here when this is the fact of the matter.
Whatever opposition Pelosi is putting on Trump has no more teeth than a random tiktok video. Ooh, look, she clapped weirdly at him! Give me a fucking break.
Tulsi's plan is entirely unrelated to this bill. A stimulus bill will still come
This is the 2nd in a series of bills
If your theory is that we can't expect anything meaningful from our government unless Democrats controls all branches of government (and have 60 votes in the Senate), how the hell are you not a revolutionary?
People call me names on this forum, but I honest to god believe that the US government, even in it currently form can do waaaaaaaaaaay more than it's doing.
I donno, I'm not a master negotiator, but I can't for the life of me understand why there isn't right now a bunch of actual good bills getting passed by the house.
Not show bills, not poison pill bills, I'm talking about honest to god attempts to help people. The senate is probably not going pass them just like this, but things are gonna get worse pretty damn soon, and there will be pressure on congress to act. We can frame the conversation about what they should do by having actual things ready.
Why not pass a bill the guarantee free treatment to all COVID-19 patients?
Why not pass a bill that force hospitals in insurance companies to stop that in and out of network bullshit so we can direct patients efficiently?
Why not pass a bill the up facemask production in some way? (I can think of a few).
Why not fund massive increase in ICU beds capacity?
What is being gained by arguing that this is the best that we can do?
What is gained by celebrating this bill?
I don't get it.
It's crazy how the reality of the us government is that there are people who want to build government, and then there's the party of sabotage and destruction who just want to stand in the way of that.
"Democrats aren't giving enough" is what Trump says. Democrats are the only ones that want to give anything. So sick of republicans. They just get worse and worse.
"Democrats aren't giving enough" is what Trump says. Democrats are the only ones that want to give anything. So sick of republicans. They just get worse and worse.
It's useless to you because you don't care about the 30 million people this is helping. There's no nice way to say this, but i don't know how to explain to you why you should care about other people.
It's also not our fault that you don't have an elementary school understanding of how our government works. Again, i'm not trying to be mean, but you're aggressively unsympathetic and incapable of digesting very simple information that's been given to you 100x in this thread.
And many will still get upset any time Republicans are called out.
I constantly see this on The View.
Joy Behar will call out Republicans, but then Whoopi Goldberg, Meghan McCain, and several guests will claim both sides are equally at fault. Yes, the Democratic Party isn't perfect and they screw up, but people can't keep comparing them to be just as bad as the Republican Party.
But nope, "both sides."
The bill:
- Gets food to tens of millions of students who participate in the school lunch programs, but who aren't going to school due to coronavirus
- legislatively puts the lid on the stupid work requirements for Medicaid and SNAP the trump administration is pursuing during the pandemic
- Improves unemployment insurance
- Ensures free testing for coronavirus for everyone.
- Includes at least SOME sick leave.
The sick leave only covers about 20% of workers, and the work requirements aren't being permanently shelved by law, but damn, do you understand that without these concessions, the bill dies in the senate?
Direct your outrage at the GOP. They're the weak link in the chain. You can put all the AOCs you want in the democratic caucus, it won't do anything as long as there are 50+ Republicans in the senate to block things.
- Gets food to tens of millions of students who participate in the school lunch programs, but who aren't going to school due to coronavirus
- legislatively puts the lid on the stupid work requirements for Medicaid and SNAP the trump administration is pursuing during the pandemic
- Improves unemployment insurance
- Ensures free testing for coronavirus for everyone.
- Includes at least SOME sick leave.
The sick leave only covers about 20% of workers, and the work requirements aren't being permanently shelved by law, but damn, do you understand that without these concessions, the bill dies in the senate?
Direct your outrage at the GOP. They're the weak link in the chain. You can put all the AOCs you want in the democratic caucus, it won't do anything as long as there are 50+ Republicans in the senate to block things.
There are legitimately hundreds of House bills sitting in the Senate docket that McConnell has vowed to never even look at.
America in general have given Republicans a complete pass.
Are people in this thread performing massive celebration though?
And, so your plan is that in the midst of a crisis instead of negotiating a bill that can pass they should spend time internally negotiating and then passing bills that have no chance of passing?
ITT "progressives" show why they are shit at accomplishing literally anything.
Yup.
"Progressives" would rather fuck everyone on principle because the bill does not do 100% of what they want.
At the same time they don't propose EVEN ONE WAY to get something better passed outside of a collective circlejerk about how "pure" their ideas are.
Yup.
"Progressives" would rather fuck everyone on principle because the bill does not do 100% of what they want.
At the same time they don't propose EVEN ONE WAY to get something better passed outside of a collective circlejerk about how "pure" their ideas are.
Because all of those things are exactly the poison pill bills you're describing above. The fact that they would help significant numbers of people is what makes them poison pills.
The entire Republican thesis... no, that's not really the right word. The Republicans have faith in the picture of government that is ineffectual. Good legislation - not half-measures, but real, serious progress - is a direct challenge to that faith, and even in the depths of a crisis, it's not one they'd ever allow. The House has passed a ton of bills that would help people, starting from HR1 and moving onward. It hasn't changed a thing. So right now they're trying to pass stuff that can actually make it into law to help people.
And as we learned from Obama, you take the victory laps you get.
Which ones address this epidemic?
Why are democrats doing elbow bumps with republicans instead of shouting every day from every rooftoop about them?
Even from a narrow, electoral point of view this seem unwise.
I do not understand the strategy here, and I really really don't understand what is gained by keep insisting that house Democrats can't do more.
Seriously, let's say that I'm wrong and it's really impossible to get anything more than that from our government, so what?
If you demand nothing from your government you will get nothing.
I feel like we're demanding very very very little right now.
At this point it just seems like trying to rationalize the utter impotence of corporate dems as inevitable so that democrats don't have to be subject to criticism from the left.
Paid Sick Leave Loopholes: 'There’s a Giant Hole in Pelosi’s Coronavirus Bill'
"In fact, the bill guarantees sick leave only to about 20 percent of workers."www.commondreams.org
So the bill doesn't require companies with greater than 500 employees to provide paid sick leave and allows small companies to seek a "hardship" from paying. Why the fuck did the Democrats cave to this bullshit? Why not stick to their guns and allow Republicans to publicly explain their fuckery ?
The whole point of the fucking bill is so a person working at McDonald's doesn't feel like they HAVE to go to work sick so they will instead stay at home because their already insufficient income won't be taken away and thus won't infect other people by showing up and including a side of coronavirus with every double fucking Big Mac.
Fuck all of these people.
The House Dems can either pass a compromise to help some people, or insist on a "perfect" bill that doesn't pass the Senate and helps no one.
If you don't like it, blame the folks that sat out the last election and helped put the Republicans in power.
These are the people who simply don't care about GOP fuckery. They are the ones who enable Trump.
There is only so much the minority party can do. Complaining about those limits while not doing anything to remove said limits (like working to make sure people vote Dem down the line in Nov) is the pot calling the kettle black.
BTW, the vast majority of McDonald's restaurants are individually franchised. Which means that they are individually owned small businesses.
These two get it.
A) The CDC has the authority to do some of this on their own. Congress just squeezed them via questioning to make all tests free regardless of having insurance or not.
B) Other coronavirus relief bills were passed this week and sent to the Senate, where McConnell publicly decried them on the Senate floor.
C) No one is celebrating, and even Pelosi regards it as the least that could be done by congress in this time frame, and that they plan to do more after this. Most of the power of immediate action lies with the administration, the private sector, the Senate, and state governments.
This is 100% the case. Its fucking shocking seeing people continue to justify limp dick measures with stuff like climate change and this virus.
Did ya'all like this miss?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehil...cks-quick-passage-of-paid-sick-leave-bill?amp
As opposed to no "No Dick" measures progressives are proposing that have 0% chance to be implemented?
If you're coming from the perspective that every fight the Dems engage in with the GOP will result in a win then yes, a measure like this is limp dicked. I have no issue with claiming this is a half-measure but it's one that exists because the reality is that when up against Republicans, a party that is notoriously willing to let their own constituents die for a win, Dems are forced to compromise and cannot always politically dominate particularly when lives are on the line in the short term. "If you only held out a little longer you could have gotten a better deal" is sometimes true and sometimes isn't and sometimes isn't worth the risk to find out depending on the situation.
Here's an interesting bit of trivia. Trump literally endorsed this bill on Twitter, what Republicans were supposedly waiting for to get on board this bill at all (that's why it took so long in the first place, that they were waiting for Trump to get the thumb's up and didn't want to vote for it at all without that):
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1238626501555298308?s=20
But then what happened after that, exactly? The bill did indeed come to a vote in the House, and it did indeed pass, but wait, what's this...?
www.cnn.com
And it's not just in the House either. The Senate has yet to vote on it but you already have Republican Senators like Senator Johnson coming out against it:
www.ronjohnson.senate.gov
And why is this the case? Because there is a huge partisan divide in regards to the virus, thanks to the rhetoric of people like Trump, with huge amounts of Republicans thinking the whole thing is fake news/no big deal:
twitter.com
That is to say, their constituents literally would not care if they did vote against the bill because they believe the whole thing is fake news/no big deal/just a huge plot against Trump anyway. You're not shaming them, because they're quite literally immune to shame because they believe there's nothing to be shamed over to begin with.
That's awful, and terrifying, and shouldn't be how it is at all, nowhere close, but unfortunately, that is indeed where we're at on this, regardless of how terrible and awful it is.
So, should more be passed? Absolutely, there's so much more we both can and should do.
At the same time, is this better than nothing and with a virus like this, is time of the essence for what we can get passed, such as making sure that everyone can get access to testing, people can keep access to their food stamps/SNAP benefits for the time being (another thing that Republicans have no shame in cutting and absolutely no problem doing so because "welfare queen" myths and absolutely can't be shamed on), etc? Also, yes.
That yes, ideally more should be passed. But unfortunately, we currently have both a GOP Senate and an idiotic GOP President as well. And they ain't kidding when they say they can't be shamed.
Again, even with Trump's endorsement, 40 Republicans + Amash still refused to vote for this thing even as thing? You think they're messing around? You think they can be shamed? That vote itself should be testament otherwise, that even with Trump's endorsement a large fraction of them vote against anyway. They're immune to that, since they just legit don't care at all and on this particular issue a large part of their base thinks the thing's no big deal regardless.
Whereas in the mean time, people are sick and dying right now and literally this is better than nothing. That this doesn't help as much as possible, but these are nonetheless real benefits that will help real people.
Passing a better bill that would theoretically help more people but in practice help no one since the GOP will effortlessly vote against, well, that's the thing, that helps no one because it might keep one's principles in tact, but it doesn't change that no one actually gets helped at all, and EVEN LESS people are helped, EVEN LESS PEOPLE than the bill that people are supposedly angry about for not doing enough in the first place, so I don't really see how that makes sense at all.
Does it suck that this is where we are? Absolutely, of course. But as can be seen with Republicans' behavior over this even with Trump's endorsement, that's literally who they are and it's quite frankly a miracle that Pelosi was able to get even this much passed because that's how monstrous they are.
And blaming her instead of the GOP when Pelosi would absolutely have no problem passing more but it's the GOP Senate and President holding her back here, and just being upset she didn't pass some bill that would have no chance getting passed the Senate/President anyway and thus help no one, for what... some theoretical chance of shaming the GOP, which they've shown they're quite immune to and wouldn't work and thus would help no one, but even if it did work, which it wouldn't, but even if it did work, who knows exactly how long that would take? At least this is helping real people, in real ways, in the here and now. That strategy, even if it did work, which it probably wouldn't (again, as is, 40 Rs voted no which is easy for them to do because the whole thing is "fake news" to their base regardless), but even if it did, how many would be hurt in however long it takes for them to find a conscious?
In any case, I can't see how in any way this is on Pelosi's head since she isn't the one who's happy with more. She wanted more, and tried her best to get it. The R Senate/Trump said no and she can't just magic passed them. She would have no problem voting for more, but the reality of our government unfortunately is what it is and I don't see how Republicans being vile and not being willing to do any more than this (and many, even with Trump's endorsement, still not willing to even do that much) is on her in any way instead of them.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1238626501555298308?s=20
Tweet text said:
But then what happened after that, exactly? The bill did indeed come to a vote in the House, and it did indeed pass, but wait, what's this...?
House passes coronavirus relief bill after Trump announces his support
The House of Representatives passed a bipartisan legislative package in response to the spread of coronavirus in the early hours of Saturday morning following intense negotiations between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the Trump administration.
That's right, even with Trump endorsing the thing on Twitter, FORTY REPUBLICANS STILL VOTED NO ANYWAY. THAT'S WITH TRUMP'S ENDORSEMENT. 40 OF THEM STILL VOTED NO!
And it's not just in the House either. The Senate has yet to vote on it but you already have Republican Senators like Senator Johnson coming out against it:
Johnson Statement on Coronavirus Legislation
www.ronjohnson.senate.gov
And why is this the case? Because there is a huge partisan divide in regards to the virus, thanks to the rhetoric of people like Trump, with huge amounts of Republicans thinking the whole thing is fake news/no big deal:
Jay Van Bavel on Twitter
“There is a huge partisan divide over the threat of #COVID19 62% of Republicans see news reports about the seriousness of the #coronavirus as “generally exaggerated” 31 % of Democrats say the same thing These differences extend to health behaviors. https://t.co/EDa355Rkpq”
twitter.com
Tweet text said:
That is to say, their constituents literally would not care if they did vote against the bill because they believe the whole thing is fake news/no big deal/just a huge plot against Trump anyway. You're not shaming them, because they're quite literally immune to shame because they believe there's nothing to be shamed over to begin with.
That's awful, and terrifying, and shouldn't be how it is at all, nowhere close, but unfortunately, that is indeed where we're at on this, regardless of how terrible and awful it is.
So, should more be passed? Absolutely, there's so much more we both can and should do.
At the same time, is this better than nothing and with a virus like this, is time of the essence for what we can get passed, such as making sure that everyone can get access to testing, people can keep access to their food stamps/SNAP benefits for the time being (another thing that Republicans have no shame in cutting and absolutely no problem doing so because "welfare queen" myths and absolutely can't be shamed on), etc? Also, yes.
That yes, ideally more should be passed. But unfortunately, we currently have both a GOP Senate and an idiotic GOP President as well. And they ain't kidding when they say they can't be shamed.
Again, even with Trump's endorsement, 40 Republicans + Amash still refused to vote for this thing even as thing? You think they're messing around? You think they can be shamed? That vote itself should be testament otherwise, that even with Trump's endorsement a large fraction of them vote against anyway. They're immune to that, since they just legit don't care at all and on this particular issue a large part of their base thinks the thing's no big deal regardless.
Whereas in the mean time, people are sick and dying right now and literally this is better than nothing. That this doesn't help as much as possible, but these are nonetheless real benefits that will help real people.
Passing a better bill that would theoretically help more people but in practice help no one since the GOP will effortlessly vote against, well, that's the thing, that helps no one because it might keep one's principles in tact, but it doesn't change that no one actually gets helped at all, and EVEN LESS people are helped, EVEN LESS PEOPLE than the bill that people are supposedly angry about for not doing enough in the first place, so I don't really see how that makes sense at all.
Does it suck that this is where we are? Absolutely, of course. But as can be seen with Republicans' behavior over this even with Trump's endorsement, that's literally who they are and it's quite frankly a miracle that Pelosi was able to get even this much passed because that's how monstrous they are.
And blaming her instead of the GOP when Pelosi would absolutely have no problem passing more but it's the GOP Senate and President holding her back here, and just being upset she didn't pass some bill that would have no chance getting passed the Senate/President anyway and thus help no one, for what... some theoretical chance of shaming the GOP, which they've shown they're quite immune to and wouldn't work and thus would help no one, but even if it did work, which it wouldn't, but even if it did work, who knows exactly how long that would take? At least this is helping real people, in real ways, in the here and now. That strategy, even if it did work, which it probably wouldn't (again, as is, 40 Rs voted no which is easy for them to do because the whole thing is "fake news" to their base regardless), but even if it did, how many would be hurt in however long it takes for them to find a conscious?
In any case, I can't see how in any way this is on Pelosi's head since she isn't the one who's happy with more. She wanted more, and tried her best to get it. The R Senate/Trump said no and she can't just magic passed them. She would have no problem voting for more, but the reality of our government unfortunately is what it is and I don't see how Republicans being vile and not being willing to do any more than this (and many, even with Trump's endorsement, still not willing to even do that much) is on her in any way instead of them.
I too wish I could just ignore any of the barriers for better things occurring and just act half measures occur simply because of individual incompetence. It would be so easy to look at any political situation and go, "why didn't these fucking losers just do the better thing?!"
I wish the dems were like the Republicans who tried to repeal medicare for all 60 times instead of automatically caving to Republicans for crumbs. We are on the right side (a lot of the time) and cave for horse shit
This.
Are we back to the democrats purity tests again. Let not perfection be the enemy of the good.