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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,570
Today marks one month until we finally get to play The Last of Us Part 2. One of the most anticipated games of 2020. And I feel like it's a good time to discuss what the overall intent of the title is based purely on marketing materials and imagery shown in trailers. And how ND went about delivering that, I should point out, there will be no spoilers in this thread.

Overall goal of the game: "Ultimately, this is a story about the cycle of violence, right? But beyond that, it's a conversation about the effects systemic trauma can have on your soul." - Halley Gross
the-last-of-us-ii-screenshot-06-en-us-25mar20


The writers on how they approached this:
"We're making a game about the cycle of violence and we're making a statement about violent actions and the impact they have on the character that's committing them and on the people close to them," he said. "And our whole approach is to say, 'We want to treat this as realistically as possible.' When you stab someone—if you watch reference videos, which we have, it's gross and it's messy and it's not sanitized like you see in most movies and games. And we wanted to get the player to feel that."

The idea, he underscored, was "for the player to feel repulsed by some of the violence they are committing themselves. It felt like that is the most honest way to tell this story."
azuNlef.png



Now how do they go about this? The game, more so than any other in recent memory, goes out of it's way to make the violence on display make the average person uncomfortable. And even though it's still stylized to some degree, it still looks a conscious effort was made to make the violence look more real than other video games. With ND's devs even admitting to looking at reference videos.

Imagery warning:


And beyond that, the way the game handles npcs in comparison to other titles:
every time you're experiencing these setups, you have to engage with what would have been a typical NPC. But now, you've shot him, and his friend keeps screaming his name, and you have to carry the impact of your violence with you.

Every human enemy in Part 2 is named, so characters will often call out to each other by name as they discuss tactics or shout orders. Kill someone, and their friends will call out their name in anguish. The same goes for the dogs; it seems you'll hear a lot of pained cries from dog owners if you kill their companions in Part 2 .


All in all, the game will be quite the journey.

If they nail it then this game could lead to some really interesting discussions about how violence in video games. And how to effectively merge narrative and gameplay systems to a much further degree than the first game. So cheers to it being one month away, for real this time.
 
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Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
26,023
It probably says more about me than anything, but none of the violence we've seen seems all that extreme outside the usual stuff we see in games and movies nowadays all the time. I remember one of those earlier trailers where the woman is tied to a tree or something and someone cuts her and people freaking out about how violent it was and how uncomfortable they were and it just didn't really phase me at all lol
 

nelsonroyale

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,135
Good post.

I think the concept is still going to be a bit santised because you are going to kill hundreds during the course of the game - it remains an action-horror-adventure at heart - but I think they are potentially opening an interesting discussion in the mainstream video game space. Because this is more like what actually killing a person violently looks like. In most games you may as well be shooting pumpkins for the emotional resonance and the uncomfortableness the action creates. This is certainly going to make me feel uncomfortable and squeamish, and i certainly wouldn't want all action game to be this graphic...but violence is still insanely sanitised in our culture.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,255
They watched reference videos of real people actually being stabbed? That's, uh...
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
10,031
Spain
I'm fine with the game trying to teach that violence is terrible and gross and shouldn't be as normalized as it is nowadays, but I honestly feel like I won't enjoy my time with it for that exact reason. To each their own, of course, but I'm not sure if this game is for me if this is their intention.

I like to have fun when I play games. I want to have a good time away from the real world. If the aim of this game is to make me uncomfortable or disgusted, I'm not sure if I want to play it.

I don't mind extreme violence if it's goofy and over the top (like Mortal Kombat, for example), but very graphic, realistic violence... Oof.
 

fanboy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,452
Slovakia
Oh well this thread will go well. But thank you OP for sharing developer's point of view and reasons for why their game is this fucking violent..

Of course there will be some players that wont understand this and will shit about the game.

I am so gonna fuck up everybody in this game (mayne on 2nd playthrough because i want to enjoy stealth first).

And i will also kill some dogs and their owners to actually see how they react... and then maybe some more dogs because dogs in this game wont be anything but fucking killer machines that will gladly eat your baby's face on breakfast.
 

EJS

The Fallen
The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
9,200
The game looks more brutal than any game I have played and certainly up there for movies as well.

I recall ND saying, very early on, that the game was about hate. Looking at these images and gifs, it seems like they kept the tone aligned with the theme. I think, if the narrative lands, the violence will make the package that much more convincing. I don't think if they left it out it would have been to their detriment but I think they have a chance to tap into something that doesn't get tapped into often in games.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,851
KAxlXdv.gif


"Oh Ellie".

I think it's important to explore the mental impact of violence begets violence.
 

Izanagi89

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,826
I do tend to wonder what is it about this game's portrayed of violence that had people feeling uncomfortable. Maybe it's because it's not stylized or over the top but MK11 got people ripping off heads with the spine attached and killing your opponent in the most gruesome way possible. Maybe it's because TLOU feels to 'real' I guess?
 

Deleted member 5322

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,523
I don't much get what making a story about violence = bad is supposed to "say" I guess. Like uh...we know dude lol.
 

Duncan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,052
I'm sure this game will open a ton of discussion and garner a ton of acclaim...

But yeah I don't think I'm just not in the mood for something like this anytime soon and that's fine.

Make your game, make your statement, but I'm gonna just do something else. I say this as someone who's enjoyed the first Last of Us, but the world is a completely place right now, in my opinion.
 

Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,682
I applaud them for trying to make the player feel bad for taking a life. Even if it's an enemy.

If you want to kill without feeling bad about it play nearly every other game ever made.

Love that the enemies cry over their friends/dogs being killed. Killing isn't fun.
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,698
I do tend to wonder what is it about this game's portrayed of violence that had people feeling uncomfortable. Maybe it's because it's not stylized or over the top but MK11 got people ripping off heads with the spine attached and killing your opponent in the most gruesome way possible. Maybe it's because TLOU feels to 'real' I guess?

Because MK doesn't focus on being able to pinpoint the exact moment a person's life ends as you watch them bleed out or strangle them over a prolonged period of time. TLOU2 seems to have this hyper-focus on making the violence and death animations realistic to how people would actually, like, act while their body is failing and they futilely struggle for survival.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,255
I'm sure this will be a super-polished, artistically impressive, technically ambitious game with tight controls and dynamic AI and sharp writing and moving performances... and I adored the first game... But man, I just really have no desire to play this. I think we need to be shown some contrast, like warm character moments, where it's not obvious they're doomed and their joy is fleeting. As it stands, I feel like so much of what we've been shown is darkness, darkness, darkness. And darkness, without contrast, is a very numbing thing.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
19,005
I think it's overkill tbh. No pun intended.

I can slaughter demons all day in Doom and it's no prob because it's comically over-the-top and ridiculous, that's part of the fun. What they're going for here is too much, I really don't care for it.
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,570
It probably says more about me than anything, but none of the violence we've seen seems all that extreme outside the usual stuff we see in games and movies nowadays all the time. I remember one of those earlier trailers where the woman is tied to a tree or something and someone cuts her and people freaking out about how violent it was and how uncomfortable they were and it just didn't really phase me at all lol
do tend to wonder what is it about this game's portrayed of violence that had people feeling uncomfortable
I have to say, I have never been more unsettled by a death rendered in a video game than I have when I saw this:

A meticulous amount of detail was put into making that look real.


MK11 got people ripping off heads with the spine attached and killing your opponent in the most gruesome way possible. Maybe it's because TLOU feels to 'real' I guess?
That's exactly why people don't pay it anymind. Because what you just described is stylized to such a degree that it does not at all seem plausible.
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
10,031
Spain
I do tend to wonder what is it about this game's portrayed of violence that had people feeling uncomfortable. Maybe it's because it's not stylized or over the top but MK11 got people ripping off heads with the spine attached and killing your opponent in the most gruesome way possible. Maybe it's because TLOU feels to 'real' I guess?

In my case, this is exactly it.

Over the top violence is fun because it doesn't happen in real life. You can't rip someone's spine off with your bare hands, their heads don't explode into a million chunks if you shoot them with a handgun... It's a fantasy. A terrible, morbid fantasy, agreed, but still a fantasy.

But slitting someone's throat, hearing how they drown in their own blood while they struggle to stay alive, shooting someone in the head and watching their body slump down... That's real. That can happen in real life. That actually happens in real life. And if they focus on that, which is what the game is apparently trying to do... Yeah, that makes me uncomfortable.
 

Savinowned

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,275
Nashville, TN
I haven't read any leaks whatsoever, but with this talk I think a lot of folks that liked Part 1 are going to have trouble getting through this one... myself included.
 

Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
26,023
I have to say, I have never been more unsettled by a death rendered in a video game than I have when I saw this:


A meticulous amount of detail was put into making that look real.

I dunno, maybe it's because I've always enjoyed horror movies too and have seen a lot when realistic looking death scenes in those moments. Shocking for a moment, yeah, but just kind of rolls off.

I think that I am just the kind of person that no matter how realistic something is, I can always separate fact from fiction.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,851
I'm sure this will be a super-polished, artistically impressive, technically ambitious game with tight controls and dynamic AI and sharp writing and moving performances... and I adored the first game... But man, I just really have no desire to play this. I think we need to be shown some contrast, like warm character moments, where it's not obvious they're doomed and their joy is fleeting. As it stands, I feel like so much of what we've been shown is darkness, darkness, darkness. And darkness, without contrast, is a very numbing thing.
Naughty Dog knows balance, and there have been some nods towards light-hearted moments in the story trailer. The purpose of their marketing is to differentiate it from the first game, because it is a different game with a different theme. With the way they wrapped up Uncharted 4, I'm pretty confident they understand what is valuable and there will be elements of sustained beauty in the world, the characters and the story.
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
making a violent video game that doesn't glorify violence or make it "fun" without being a terrible game is about as difficult as making a truly anti-war war movie. don't think naughty dog is capable of such a feat.
 

Älg

Banned
May 13, 2018
3,178
And beyond that, the way the game handles npcs in comparison to other titles:
every time you're experiencing these setups, you have to engage with what would have been a typical NPC. But now, you've shot him, and his friend keeps screaming his name, and you have to carry the impact of your violence with you.

Every human enemy in Part 2 is named, so characters will often call out to each other by name as they discuss tactics or shout orders. Kill someone, and their friends will call out their name in anguish. The same goes for the dogs; it seems you'll hear a lot of pained cries from dog owners if you kill their companions in Part 2 .

From what I've seen so far this behaviour seems pretty surface level, in a "Must have been the wind" sort of way. Nevertheless I hope to be positively surprised.
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,570
I'm sure this will be a super-polished, artistically impressive, technically ambitious game with tight controls and dynamic AI and sharp writing and moving performances... and I adored the first game... But man, I just really have no desire to play this. I think we need to be shown some contrast, like warm character moments, where it's not obvious they're doomed and their joy is fleeting. As it stands, I feel like so much of what we've been shown is darkness, darkness, darkness. And darkness, without contrast, is a very numbing thing.
There will definitely be scenes with levity. Devs don't usually get the resource to show characters doing things OTHER than killing people, ND is one of that gets the time and budget for that kinda thing:
90

_3128123b.jpg

The-Last-of-Us-Part-II_2020_04-02-20_006.jpg

XLvv5i7.png



But unfortunately it's the world of the last of us.

From what I've seen so far this behaviour seems pretty surface level, in a "Must have been the wind" sort of way. Nevertheless I hope to be positively surprised.
From what I can tell the AI doesn't seem to reset back to "calm and patrolling" mode.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,544
Yeah, it will hopefully work better in context.

Neil has spoken about how it's important to have lighter moments otherwise you're just assaulting the player with one tone so much that important moments might not hit right. You can see that throughout the original game. It's a really dark game as well, but they don't beat you over the heat with that for the whole game. The end of summer is a good example. Where Joel, Ellie, Sam and Henry are exploring that town and you're actually getting to see Ellie and Sam act like kids since there's no danger for once. They're getting to play games and learn about how things were before the outbreak. And then you know what comes next.
 

Älg

Banned
May 13, 2018
3,178
From what I can tell the AI doesn't seem to reset back to "calm and patrolling" mode.

Not really what I meant, but I can see how the reference would imply it haha.

What I meant was that the enemy AI reactions don't seem to go beyond yelling the name of whomever you killed, before resuming their regular rudimentary NPC behavior. Basically, the enemies have names but they're still not people. But again, I hope to be wrong about this assessment.
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
Yeah, I also thought that murder scene with the hanging person was a bit too much for me and can't really explain why this one had that effect on me while other violent games do not. I think it's just how realistic it looked and sounded. Maybe I'll watch it again to see if I just had a soft moment.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,182
I'd like to read the OP and discuss in this thread, but I don't trust posters here. I don't know nothing about the spoilers and I don't want to know. But, I'm posting now so I can come back post-release to discuss.
 

Qudi

Member
Jul 26, 2018
5,340
That paris game week trailer still haunts me the way they shattered the elbow with a hammer. I feel like that they only shown a glimpse of how brutal and gore heavy this game will be in the marketing.

Im all in for it.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,851
From what I've seen so far this behaviour seems pretty surface level, in a "Must have been the wind" sort of way. Nevertheless I hope to be positively surprised.
The way that AI is engineered including the way that NPCs react to you murdering them and their friends is on another level compared to what they were trying to achieve in the first game, and I would imagine a step ahead of most similar attempts out there currently. I wouldn't be surprised if it's this technology as well as the fluidity of their motion matched animations that sells the violent encounters more than anything else in the game.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,255
That paris game week trailer still haunts me the way they shattered the elbow with a hammer. I feel like that they only shown a glimpse of how brutal and gore heavy this game will be in the marketing.

Im all in for it.
I don't remember this. Man, I don't know if I can handle this.
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,570
Not really what I meant, but I can see how the reference would imply it haha.

What I meant was that the enemy AI reactions don't seem to go beyond yelling the name of whomever you killed, before resuming their regular rudimentary NPC behavior. Basically, the enemies have names but they're still not people. But again, I hope to be wrong about this assessment.
The way it works is that, when npcs spawn, they're automatically given names and relationships with npcs in that area. I'm sure it doesn't begin and end with literal name calling.

That paris game week trailer still haunts me the way they shattered the elbow with a hammer. I feel like that they only shown a glimpse of how brutal and gore heavy this game will be in the marketing.

Im all in for it.
Yea no I specifically kept that moment out of the OP, mainly because I did not want to make a gif of it.....

I dunno, maybe it's because I've always enjoyed horror movies too and have seen a lot when realistic looking death scenes in those moments. Shocking for a moment, yeah, but just kind of rolls off.

I think that I am just the kind of person that no matter how realistic something is, I can always separate fact from fiction.
I like horror films but i've always actively avoided the torture porn stuff.
 

Yuntu

Prophet of Regret Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Nov 7, 2019
10,802
Germany
Wait TLoU is June and Ghost July? Man my head had these dates all mixed up lol
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,322
This level of violence has been known to cause PTSD in developers even in a more 'stylised game'.

With the amount of issues Naughty Dog has with its workflow I have no trust in them to create this game whilst adequately making sure that they protect their employee's mental health.

That and I don't trust them to justify the violence within the story or gameplay either. Story because, well, Naughty Dog, and Niel Druckmann specifically, have never been shown to have the writing chops to do so. Sure they can make some amazing characters and some amazing character development, but in terms of thematic relevance to genuine issues in their writing they are sorely lacking. I personally feel that violence such as this needs to have something to say that can't be said by a story that doesn't include it, and if all this game is saying is some generalised 'hatred' as the trailers and interviews implie, then I think it's going to fail at that. It's telling that most of the 'justiifcations' I've heard so far for the violence come from "that's just the word these people live in!" as if the world is a real place instead of, you know, a fantasy video game world.

Gameplay because, well, the game is still an AAA game and, as such, it can't deliberately make one of its core gameplay loops into a punishment for the player, and that's the only way that I feel the whole judgemental "you're not supposed to like the violence!" shtick will work. The vast majority of players aren't going to try and 'ghost' through a level because that's more-than-likely going to be the hardest, least straight-forward, and generally less 'fun' option than murdering, so for Naughty dog to then say that they should 'feel bad' for doing so is condescending as all hell. I mean, personally, any notion that "you're supposed to feel ashamed of your words and deeds!" is laughable when the game literally sells 'more efficient murder' as a pre-order bonus:

3584090-last%20of%20us%20standard.jpg


At the end of the day this game is going to be played by at least 10 million people, it's not some small French New Extremity film like 'Martrys', it's a mass-market product meant to attract the widest crowd possible. As such, I honestly feel it needs to be more responsible with what it shows because the potential for major mental health issues stemming from people playing this game is quite considerable. Right now I really don't think Naughty Dog is being that responsible, especially since it's shying away from showing any of this ultra-violence in the latest, and more mass-market, trailers.
 
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Lone

Member
Mar 6, 2019
1,417
Los Angeles, CA
Didn't TLOU have a big controversy surrounding the violence, and that game turned out to handle it very well? I'm sure some people thought the violence was 'fun' there, because people are... well, they can be like that sometimes, unfortunately, but that's clearly not the intention/point of what ND was conveying.

I don't see how this wouldn't be much different, even if they take the needle further.
 

Izanagi89

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,826
In my case, this is exactly it.

Over the top violence is fun because it doesn't happen in real life. You can't rip someone's spine off with your bare hands, their heads don't explode into a million chunks if you shoot them with a handgun... It's a fantasy. A terrible, morbid fantasy, agreed, but still a fantasy.

But slitting someone's throat, hearing how they drown in their own blood while they struggle to stay alive, shooting someone in the head and watching their body slump down... That's real. That can happen in real life. That actually happens in real life. And if they focus on that, which is what the game is apparently trying to do... Yeah, that makes me uncomfortable.

Hmmm. I get where you're coming from. Maybe MK wasn't the best example given that it's too over the top, and while nowhere near as realistic as this, a lot of games have been pushing the boundaries when it comes to killing other human beings e.g. shooting them in the leg and they'll limp away until you eventually kill them.

Personally I don't have much of a problem with it but I can see now why other might. There's no real right or wrong when it comes to this because this is the artistic direction ND chose but it's going to be incredibly interesting to see the player reaction to their decision. Lots of interesting discussions ahead
 

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,599
Violence is supposed to make you uncomfortable. The act of taking a like with your own hands should shake you to the bone.

The problem with games is that we have been hit with gratuitous amount of violence for years, and we feel nothing, just a handful of games have some meaningful deaths here and there.

taking a life is supposed to be mournful, sad, gripping and more so in a setting where the end of the world is upon you and every body is trying to survive.

I applaud naughty dog fro trying to convey a message and make us think before taking a life even if it makes you uncomfortable.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,019
making a violent video game that doesn't glorify violence or make it "fun" without being a terrible game is about as difficult as making a truly anti-war war movie. don't think naughty dog is capable of such a feat.
Yeah, something like that. I mean the game will undoubtedly be praised for realistic depictions of violence.

And lots of people will love that.

I mean no matter how hard they try (I mean are they trying really? Isn't it just a marketing schtick?), lots of people will be happy that they get their shot of realistic ultra-violence.

I mean if I'm being brutally honest, we don't really need another ultra-violent game which will sell like gangbusters to tell us violence is bad (please buy our game).
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Academically speaking, a game that deals with violence and how we engage with it is extremely interesting especially in regards to questions about morality and player agency. I made a thread a few months ago, about how I've grown increasingly alienated by games with gratuitous violence, specifically gun violence, as a way to engage the player without requiring them reflect on their actions. I find myself being repulsed by this especially when the game in question attempts to approximate real-life as closely as possible (where it is convenient) or even explicitly references real-life events. TLOU2, at least if we take the developers by their word, seems to address some of my concerns. But it also makes for something I find very off-putting on a personal level.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,112
So do these devs develop real-life PTSD? That seems questionable to ask someone to engage with that sort of material to do their work.
Yes. They've been diagnosed with it.

kotaku.com

'I'd Have These Extremely Graphic Dreams': What It's Like To Work On Ultra-Violent Games Like Mortal Kombat 11

Mortal Kombat 11 is a brutal game. That’s what you come for—sensational, over-the-top violence that’s inventive and gratuitous on a level that doesn’t exist anywhere else. It can be shocking in its detail and funny in its execution, but it’s always arresting. It’s also short. Fatalities, gory...
 

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
I think that it's a way to diminish ludonarrative dissonance if your actions can look just as brutal as when you're watching the cutscenes.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,255
I'm generally unfazed by gore, but depictions of suffering - i.e. screaming in pain, etc - can chill me to the bone. Like, a headshot that vaporizes a skull is gruesome but the victim doesn't even know what hit them. But stuff like the torture scene in GTAV just crosses a line into sadism (even though that, too, was attempting to illustrate something, namely the futility of torture for interrogation).
 
OP
OP
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,570
Yeah, something like that. I mean the game will undoubtedly be praised for realistic depictions of violence.

And lots of people will love that.

I mean no matter how hard they try (I mean are they trying really? Isn't it just a marketing schtick?), lots of people will be happy that they get their shot of realistic ultra-violence.
Trust and believe that it's way more ingrained into the game than what can be described as "marketing schtick."
-tone
-animation
-art direction
-the specifics of the violence
-the AI system
etc.

It's all made with the thematics in mind. And yes, some people will miss the point, but that's true with any game really. Especially in our plot focused "everything explained" culture where character analysis gets less attention than lore and plot beats.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,753
Ibis Island
I'm still whatever about the clip during Paris Games Week. I wasn't bothered by it, but I REALLY wanna know who was in a meeting and went "Oh man, this clip is so fucking good to sell more copies of the game".