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Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
I suspect MS will have higher CPU clocks.
Sony will have higher SSD speeds.
MS will have more RAM bandwidth.
Sony will have higher GPU Clockspeed and more tflops.

At the end of the day, both consoles will likely run games at dynamic resolution checkerboarded to hell and back, and no one will be able to tell the difference even if the gap is on the high end at 20%. MS with their higher cpu clock and more bandwidth will likely bridge the gap and the 2.0ghz clockspeed likely wont give Sony a 1:1 increase in performance.

The only thing i find interesting about this claim from Sony is that it seems so confident and so arrogant that it makes me think they have a monster on thier hands which is excellent news for anyone who is not on the 8 tflops train. The MS exec also talked about scarlett eating monsters (x1x) for breakfast which means they are also at least 2x more powerful at 12 rnda tflops. i dont think they would say that about a 9 tflops rdna card just because its equivalent to 12 gcn tflops.
Lol... at this point;
- price of bread is 2% cheaper in japan
- AegonSnake : 14TF confirmed!!!
apologies, meant over a while, until the parts get cheaper.
Things like the RAMand SSD will likely continue dropping in price, and there are usually are revisions in the manufacturing process that makes thins cheaper. The APU may also get a little cheaper too as the fab process matures some more.

There is they aren't going to be able to knock $50 of the BOM in the first year, but they will shave off a little. And I don't think they are gonna bite as much as a $100 loss per console either. Max $70. If we try a loose cost breakdown I am sr we land at around $550 to make the console. And PS is not just the console, there s software, accessories and services. The point is that when its all said and done, they finish their first year or two at least breakin even or nearly breaking even.

Ensuring that one of your bestselling games falls fully into that fiscal year goes a long way to bridging that gap.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
that's the spirit ;d
lowered-expectations.jpg
 

Biosnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,254
The Shroud Mixer news made me think about this but I wonder if MS would be willing to sell Scarlett at a significant loss to boost sales. They got some aggressive spending recently.
 

SeanMN

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,187
The Shroud Mixer news made me think about this but I wonder if MS would be willing to sell Scarlett at a significant loss to boost sales. They got some aggressive spending recently.
Spending on content, yes. But MS has not, in recent years at least, been aggressive with price on any hardware they've done. Xbox SADE launching at $250 is a recent example.
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
Spending on content, yes. But MS has not, in recent years at least, been aggressive with price on any hardware they've done. Xbox SADE launching at $250 is a recent example.

I don't expect that either Microsoft or Sony would take a huge loss on hardware, but comparing that Xbox all digital console to whether they would do something on price for next gen launch is really apples to oranges. The ONLY reason that I would even consider the possibility that they get more aggressive on price than expected for next gen launch is honestly whether they truly think Google is serious about becoming a gaming threat here, as that is a battle that they will fight with even more investment if necessary due to overall corporate implications beyond just fighting with Sony on gaming.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
How does Sony/MS recuperate that much money lost from the new consoles? That's a lot of games and lot of services they'd have to sell on day one.
like they always have. before the ps4, losing that much on a console early on was normal.

they also have a lot more revenue streams now than they ever did. PS+ subs are what 40-50 million? they were 2 million at the start of last gen. Their PSN network sales makes more money than the entire Nintendo and MS gaming division. Sales seem to be slowing down like they do at the end of every gen so at the very least investors will be fine with a burst of new revenue from higher priced consoles and higher levels of engagement from enthusiasts even if the profits arent as high as before.

their first party is also finally selling well. i think their output last gen was better and more diverse but most of their games sold pretty bad. now they sell like 3 million copies within a few weeks for all major releases. If they can get Horizon 2, Gran Turismo, Demon Souls bluepoint remake and one other big AAA game out within the launch window or before the fiscal year ends, they will generate well over a billion in revenue, most of it profit.

At the end of the day, it will come down to selling software. I never liked Shawn Layden's philosophy of not releasing video games just because he didnt want to compete with third parties. they are a video game company and they need to sell games to make money. imagine if they had shutdown naughty dog because they didnt want uncharted to compete with tomb raider. it makes no sense. They seem to be turning things around and hiring a lot of people recently so hopefully this means more than just 2 AAA games from them every year.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
Did they say smth like this about Scarlett and if yes, do you remeber where ?

I thought it was common knowledge here that they did make the statement at one stage they would ensure they had the most powerful next gen console. I'm pretty sure that originates from their E3 conference 2018, covered here in this Eurogamer article.
"The same team that delivered unprecedented performance with Xbox One X is deep into architecting the next Xbox consoles, where we will once again deliver on our commitment to set the benchmark for console gaming.

...

It is how most people think of an Xbox. An Xbox is something you plug into your TV. It's the world's most powerful console - I like saying that! - and you get to play great games on your television. I want that to continue. And I don't want that to just continue in words. I want it to continue in action. In the last two years we've shipped the S console, which I love, and the X console - we said what it was going to do, and I love the fact we were able to deliver that.
 

klik

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
873
Is there an actual possibility that we'll get 14 TF GCN (10+RDNA TF) GPU in PS5? That would be insane if true
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
People get too hot and heavy over some PR speak. Pornhub searches spiked 1700% over fastest console the last few day. SMH. AegonSnake can only do so much...
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,039
How does Sony/MS recuperate that much money lost from the new consoles? That's a lot of games and lot of services they'd have to sell on day one.

Sony made $12.5 Billion off of *just PSN* in 2018 alone.

www.ign.com

PlayStation Network Revenue Hit Record High in 2018, Topped Nintendo and Xbox Totals - IGN

With over 90 million active users, PSN continues to generate record-setting amounts of revenue for Sony.

Taking a $100 hit on hardware to keep people in that ecosystem is the obvious play. They'll make that money back immediately and barely notice the hit.
 

EsqBob

Member
Nov 7, 2017
241
$100 loss per console = $1.5 billion if they sell 15 million in the first year. if they sell 7 million by March 2021, that's a $700 million. if TLOU2 sells 10 million in the first year, they can easily recoup $600 million of that.

So what can you put in a $600 console? 1tb SSD, a 5800 GPU, fancy cooling system, and some HBM2. you know you want to join the dark side. Team 14 tflops is always recruiting.
Of course team 14 believes that TLOU2 costed nothing to make and that they get the full $60 per copy sold of the game, haha
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
I doubt the person who wrote the job description has any idea of nerd-level console detective politics.

LOL, no doubt. But logically it should tell us that neither side is 100% confident in that type of messaging being put out widely right now because they likely don't know exactly how things will play out in the end on the other side if they are very close, as otherwise it shouldn't even matter to leave that type of sentence in a job description at all.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,480
Seattle
Agree completely, but it does seem a little odd that Sony would feel the need to actually pull that sentence from the job description for sure.

Not really. They don't want job postings to pre-empt marketing messages that they haven't gone public with yet. Positioning the PS5 is going to be something they debate endlessly internally, including the timing of specific messages, and you don't want to muddy the strategic waters with something small like this. I'm surprised it was approved in the first place, but job posting aren't likely to get scrutinized by marketing - until they turn into a major talking point for your customers.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,737
Not really. They don't want job postings to pre-empt marketing messages that they haven't gone public with yet. Positioning the PS5 is going to be something they debate endlessly internally, including the timing of specific messages, and you don't want to muddy the strategic waters with something small like this. I'm surprised it was approved in the first place, but job posting aren't likely to get scrutinized by marketing - until they turn into a major talking point for your customers.

It probably wasn't approved in that sense, and given the sensitivity of a positioning of the next-gen console like that, as you say, that's likely why it was pulled.

(I do also think it's quite likely Sony doesn't know for sure yet how things will ultimately stack up, given the tweakability of certain things later on, but I think the lack of oversight/approval on this ad copy, someone overstepping their bounds, is at least as pressing a reason for the pull)
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Of course team 14 believes that TLOU2 costed nothing to make and that they get the full $60 per copy sold of the game, haha
If Sony is selling the game themselves on PSN then who else will get the cut of that $60? Microsoft? Over half of the sales are digital nowadays. They arent going to change themselves the 30% store fee. The rest, yes they wont get the entire $60 in revenue, retailers will take their 20% cut but its a first party game and they arent going to be paying royalties to themselves.

This is precisely why you need first party games. their margins are much higher on first party games. even with the retailer cut and distribution costs, they are getting a massive amount of money back from those $60. Naughty Dog made all three Uncharted games and the first TLOU for $20 million each. Worst case scenario we are looking at the $47 million budget of Horizon.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,039
That's largely revenue from selling games on PSN. Most of it gets paid out to third parties.

We don't know what the distribution of all that revenue is, and saying "most goes to third parties" probably isn't accurate either. PSN revenues are subscription based revenues, PSNow based revenues, advertising revenues, revenues from sales of first party titles and add ons, revenue from digital video services, etc etc.

Sony's financial reports don't go into that kind of deep dive. But regardless 12.5 billion in revenue is still 12.5 billion in revenue, and it's recurring revenue year over year. Over 5 years that's 60 billion in revenue.

It's in Sony's best interest to KEEP that revenue stream going, which means keeping people in the ecosystem. That revenue stream wasn't in place for the PS1, PS2, PS3, or PS4 at launch:

2846584-4646522335-ChHch.jpg



so any calculation of how much was lost on those systems isn't likely to be a good measure of what Sony is willing to lose on this one. It's in Sony's best interest to retain the gamers they have AND get new ones into the ecosystem as fast as possible, since the longer they own the system the greater network revenue is.
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,154
We don't know what the distribution of all that revenue is, and saying "most goes to third parties" probably isn't accurate either. PSN revenues are subscription based revenues, PSNow based revenues, advertising revenues, revenues from sales of first party titles and add ons, revenue from digital video services, etc etc.

Sony's financial reports don't go into that kind of deep dive. But regardless 12.5 billion in revenue is still 12.5 billion in revenue, and it's recurring revenue year over year. Over 5 years that's 60 billion in revenue.

It's in Sony's best interest to KEEP that revenue stream going, which means keeping people in the ecosystem. That revenue stream wasn't in place for the PS1, PS2, PS3, or PS4 at launch:

2846584-4646522335-ChHch.jpg



so any calculation of how much was lost on those systems isn't likely to be a good measure of what Sony is willing to lose on this one. It's in Sony's best interest to retain the gamers they have AND get new ones into the ecosystem as fast as possible, since the longer they own the system the greater network revenue is.
It's not hard to see most of that goes to 3rd party looking at how much profit they make per year compare to revenue.
 

Toni

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
1,983
Orlando, Florida
How does Sony/MS recuperate that much money lost from the new consoles? That's a lot of games and lot of services they'd have to sell on day one.
Game and Network Services (G&NS).

The driving force of Revenue behind the massive PlayStation ecosystem.

Remember how the PS3 caused Sony to have a total loss of $3 billion dollars over a span of an entire console generation (6 years), and how every gaming enthusiast website on Interwebs was saying Sony was doomed?

It turns out, Right now, PlayStation Network is generating Sony the total loss of PlayStation 3 (3 billion)... in 12 months.

To elaborate on that, during the Investors Meeting in May 2019, Sony said that PlayStation Network is generating a massive $3 billion dollars of pure Net Profit annually. And this massive income is expected keep increasing year-over-year.

What's generating Sony $3 billion a year from the PlayStation division?

- A massive 100 million monthly active user base
- The 30% cut they get from every microtransaction
- Microtransactions
- Digital content services
- Add-on content

While Hardware and Accessories are also profitable, they only take a small space on the Revenue / Profit charts

PSN's growth year-over-year:

DyTSSMlWoAARBlJ.jpg



PSN revenue compared to Nintendo:

DyTULz1X4AEK71x.jpg
 
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Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,039
It's not hard to see most of that goes to 3rd party looking at how much profit they make per year compare to revenue.

Profit is revenue minus expenses. Expenses are a lot of things, from salaries to game development, to next gen hardware investment, etc.

Lets do this another way.

3068150-6032787850-1btMQ.png


This is operating income for Sony's game business by fiscal year, 1995-2010. You can actually see the years Sony took big hits launching next gen hardware in 1995, 2000, and 2006.

Note that the peak of the PS2 era Sony maxed out at 113 Billion yen operating profit, with the 2000-2005 period racking up about 265 million yen.

Now, look at 2014 to present:

SonyFY2020drop.png


2018 alone was a 190 billion yen operating profit. 2017 was about 170. 2016 was about 130. In two years the PS4 earned Sony far more operating profit than the PS2 did over its entire lifespan, despite the PS2 selling substantially more hardware and software AND Sony dumping way, way, WAY more money into first party game development than it did on PS2.

The cut that Sony gets from a third party game is about the same whether its sold on a digital storefront or via retail. So that being the case, why is sony profit completely destroying all records right now? Why was the profitability of the entire PS2 catalogue for six years straight nowhere close to what was brought in over two years on PS4?

Because there is a shit ton of other revenue being brought in via digital storefronts that is not subject to "third party cuts."
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,154
Profit is revenue minus expenses. Expenses are a lot of things, from salaries to game development, to next gen hardware investment, etc.

Lets do this another way.

3068150-6032787850-1btMQ.png


This is operating income for Sony's game business by fiscal year, 1995-2010. You can actually see the years Sony took big hits in next gen hardware development, in 1995, 2000, and 2006.

Note that the peak of the PS2 era Sony maxed out at 113 Billion yen, with the 2000-2005 period racking up about 265 million yen.

Now, look at 2014 to present:

SonyFY2020drop.png


2018 alone was a 190 billion yen operating profit. 2017 was about 170. 2016 was about 130. In two years the PS4 earned Sony far more operating profit than the PS2 did over its entire lifespan, despite the PS2 selling substantially more hardware and software.

The cut that Sony gets from a third party game is about the same whether its sold on a digital storefront or via retail. So that being the case, why is sony profit completely destroying all records right now? Why was the profitability of the entire PS2 catalogue nowhere close to what was brought in over two years on PS4?

No Sony get more money on DD sales than they do at retail plus games now cost more than they did during the PS2 era .
Either way Sony only get 30% ( maybe less depending if they cut deal with the pub ) on sales on there PSN stores ( games sales , dlc , mtx etc etc )
Which mean 70% is paid out to other parties which mean most of the revenue goes to 3rd parties .
Even something like PSN+ they have to pay for the games they put on the services that not first party .

EDIT here is a old pic to show you how disc sales for games is be .


18j3z1b9en48ajpg.jpg
 
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AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
i believe he is referring to Nintendo comparison.

DyTULz1X4AEK71x.jpg


EDIT here is a old pic to show you how disc sales for games is be .


18j3z1b9en48ajpg.jpg
This is from onlive execs fudging the numbers. Retailer cut is 20% or $12 on a $60 game. Could be even less for bigger games since retailers cut deals directly with publishers.

Platform Royalty is 10%. So $6. Not $7.

No such thing as returns. you cant return open copies of games so im not sure wtf they are going on about.

I wouldnt be surprised if Distrubtion costs of shipping a disc in a box to retailers would cost $4 per copy. thats ridiculous.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,039
No Sony get more money on DD sales than they do at retail

on their own games yes. From third party games? not really. The cut is about 30% or so either way.

plus games now cost more than they did during the PS2 era

Nope. Not sure where you got that idea, even if you completely ignore inflation (which you should not).

Either way Sony only get 30% ( maybe less depending if they cut deal with the pub ) on sales on there stores ( games sales , dlc , mtx etc etc )
Which mean 70% is paid out to other parties which mean most of the revenue goes to 3rd parties .
Even something like PSN+ they have to pay for the games they put on the services that not first party .

Sony only gets 30% from third party games, which is what I said. If all that PSN revenue was only from "selling third party games" then there's no way profitability would be as far past *the entire PS2 era* as it is, since it's impossible that they sold more games in two years on PS4 than they did in 6 years from 2000-2005.

Sony gets 100% from their own first party titles on PSN which is not subject to retailer cuts. This is easily 3 times as profitable as a first party game sold at retail during the PS2 era.
Sony gets 100% of all DLC sold from such games.
Sony gets 100% of subscription fees to PS+
Sony gets 100% of all advertising revenue on PSN, and this is not insignificant
Sony gets 100% of all revenue from PSNOW, which is not insignificant.
Sony gets a cut of revenue from streaming services they own like PSVue.

All of that stacks up to add massive, massive amounts of revenue (and profit) that are above and beyond what is coming in via simple sales of third party games. Think about this.

edit: before we get too far off track, the point of this is that Network Services are THE driver for PS profitability going forward, and it's not just "selling retail games through PSN." Sony is extremely interested in keeping this gravy train going, the PS4 is by far the most profitable gaming hardware they've ever come up with, if not the most profitable device of all time BECAUSE of the ecosystem.

No one in their right mind is going to say a 100 dollar loss per unit is too much to sustain that. you could double that loss and Sony would STILL do it.
 
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