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When will the first 'next gen' console be revealed?

  • First half of 2019

    Votes: 593 15.6%
  • Second half of 2019(let's say post E3)

    Votes: 1,361 35.9%
  • First half of 2020

    Votes: 1,675 44.2%
  • 2021 :^)

    Votes: 161 4.2%

  • Total voters
    3,790
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,625
There are however a bunch of Japanese devs that would like to aim for 60 or want their 60 to be more locked and that will increase. Like I think Monster Hunter would be 60, generally all Capcom games. Fromsoft I think wants 60 too but has been limited by the CPU, their unlocked games hover around 40-50. Platinum will enjoy the freedom of the new consoles a lot. So will I'd soft and their partners like machinehead games.

I think those devs that went for 60 this gen despite the lowly jags, they will impress us the most.

Hell, Resident Evil 2 looks better than most 30 fps games.

It depends on the visions of the devs and the kind of games they have. The games you mentioned (except RE2 ofc) didn't focus on graphics this gen and weren't open world but they still suffered in FPS. For next-gen they would obviously focus on 60 FPS. The companies who compete to pull the best graphics, will always opt for 30 FPS if this allows them to pull better stuff. For example I take ND, if the PS5 has some ray-tracing hardware like the leaks suggest, ND would brag about implementing ray-tracing in their next game and instead of having a 60 FPS game. This is for sure.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
Well,theoretically yes...but how much financial sense that makes to them i don't know.
It's true but Google doesn't need to upgrade their whole data center in order to have better hardware. A player that plays Fortnite or Cuphead doesn't need the best GPU so they can have different types of machines that will serve different customers at different times. After running the service for a few years I'm sure that Google will have the necessary data in order to know how many servers they need to upgrade in order to fulfill player demand.

This is exactly the reason there will be far, far more 60fps games on console next gen as PC won't have the gargantuan CPU advantage they had this gen. An 8 core 16 thread Ryzen at ~3GHz won't be significantly outgunned by most people's gaming PC CPU's like the pathetic Jaguar cores were.

Last gen there were non gamers in 2014 with laptop CPU's more powerful than PS4/XB1 lol...
This gen was very weak compared to the PC during launch but the 360 wasn't and still, PC gamers got both 60fps and 1080p (vs the console's 30fps and 720p) pretty fast. In 2022 I'm sure that processors and GPUs will be powerful enough to play PS5 games faster and in much better settings. By 2022 we will be in NVIDIA's 4000 series and gaming CPUs will probably be 12 or 16 cores that run close to 6GHz. Don't worry, PC gamers will still run next-gen games faster and prettier before the PS5 hits its' second birthday :)
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
2,938
United Kingdom
Lots of developers will always favour to push for more graphical fidelity over higher resolutions or bigger frame rates to fit their visual style and I say go for it, nearly all modern films are capped at 25 FPS anyway.
 

Son Goku

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,332
Yeah this will happen since many devs will try to show off their skills and stand out by showing what they can do next-gen. With next-gen power and even with powerful enough CPUs, a 30 FPS game can give much room for many extra visual effects or even an entire new vision for a game (like an open world game isntead of a linear game) compared to locked 60 FPS game. 60 FPS games will be mostly kept for the new competetive and online games just like this gen.

I don't think Horizon 2 will be 60 FPS for example. They will opt mostly for bombatsic graphics in a much bigger open world than 60 FPS.
Ah but horizon 1 had a performance mode and a more graphics heavy mode so hopefully devs do more of that next gen
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,825
England
A question for people with gaming PCs. How was the transition into the PS4/One era? We're upgrades necessary or were midtier PC's still doing fine? What do you expect when next gen hits?
It was a really easy transition for this gen. I bought my current PC in the summer of 2011 for Battlefield 3 (the first game to really drive the point home that a new console gen was needed, because visuals were capable of a big jump now) and the upcoming Skyrim. The PS4 and Xbone were released almost two and a half years later, but thanks to the weak CPUs that shipped in them, and the powerful CPU I had bought (i7 2600k, but the more budget i5 2500 was also a beast in comparison to the new consoles) all I noticed was that my GPU was being taxed harder by new games. I upgraded to a GTX 970, and have upgraded again since then to a 1070, and my PC is now coming up to 8 years old and still running games at 1080p/60fps at high/ultra settings.

I'm betting this year will be a great time to build a new PC thanks to Zen 2 and Intel's 10nm offering, and will once again allow me to get through an entire console gen with only GPU upgrades required to maintain 4k/60fps throughout. If you're happy to stick to 1080p/1440p gaming for another GPU gen or two, you could easily put together a Ryzen 3000 series PC with a Navi GPU or 1660Ti this year for an affordable price, and upgrade to a 4k/60fps card around the time cross-gen games are phased out for next gen only.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,625
Ah but horizon 1 had a performance mode and a more graphics heavy mode so hopefully devs do more of that next gen

Both modes are in 30 FPS anyway. The graphic mode runs in 2160 checkerboard while the performance mode runs in 1368p but with better and improved graphical features. Keep in mind this was for the PS4 Pro only so there is a high chance Horizon 2 won't offer 2 modeson PS5, maybe until PS5 Pro is released which may offer a real 60 FPS mode this time.
 

kc44135

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,722
Ohio
This is exactly the reason there will be far, far more 60fps games on console next gen as PC won't have the gargantuan CPU advantage they had this gen. An 8 core 16 thread Ryzen at ~3GHz won't be significantly outgunned by most people's gaming PC CPU's like the pathetic Jaguar cores were.

Last gen there were non gamers in 2014 with laptop CPU's more powerful than PS4/XB1 lol...
Power has little to do with why the majority of Console games are 60 FPS. Most developers simply want to push visuals over performance, because it is easier to market. You can sell a good looking game easier than a smoothly performing game, sadly. There are probably cases where devs wanted a game to run at 60 and had to make compromises because of the hardware, but the reality is that for most games, it's a deliberate choice to squeeze the best visuals, most massive worlds, etc. out of Consoles.This is why the majority of games will still be 30 next-gen.
 

Deleted member 18161

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,805
Sorry to break it to you, but as weird as it may sound...... power has very little to do with why a majority of games on consoles are 30fps.

If we have the zen 8c/16t + ~12TF GPU consoles, devs will still find a way to make 30fps games because those will usually always look better than 60fps games and pretty is easier to market than framerate.

This is also why consoles are considered as the generation baseline.

Sorry to break it to you but im well aware of why most AAA games were 30fps for the past two generations and it's because of the lop sided hardware configurations in PS360 (lack of memory / GPU grunt) and PS4XB1 (terrible CPU).

For the first time in decades consoles will have a balanced spec with PS5 and XB2. There will be a ton of 60fps games. 30fps games will be in the small minority.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,595


539292908335923201.png
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
There are no Turing cores in the next consoles, so..
RT isn't Nvidia exclusive tho

I hope next gen consoles don't bother with ray tracing unless it is some fake version that isn't resource a hog.
Ray tracing is gonna be the PBR of next gen.

If this is achieved on Vega 56



flat,550x550,075,f.u1.jpg


AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3 2019
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/65560/amd-launch-next-gen-navi-graphics-cards-e3-2019/index.html

"We are all expecting AMD to be announcing all things 7nm during Computex 2019 in the last week of May, but what I've been told my exclusive sources is that AMD might touch on its next-gen Navi GPU at Computex 2019 but will instead do a full announcement at E3 2019.

The full launch for Navi will be on 7/7 which has been previously rumored, as AMD will be using the number 7 considerably over the coming months since it is the first company to 7nm with CPUs and GPUs and it plans to capitlize on that.

I don't have any GPU-specific details to share other than the news of the launch at E3 2019 and its performance (beats Vega 64 and competes at times with the RTX 2080). It should be a big deal as it'll be the first time in many, many years that AMD can be boldly proud of its GPU architecture. Polaris was a mid-range offering built for the current-gen Xbox One X and PS4/PS4 Pro while Vega was a write-off if you want to be honest, and built for Apple but never properly used and then chopped into parts (literally) and put out into various APUs by AMD and various Intel CPUs as on-board graphics."

So RTX2080 level performance on PS5/Xbox 4, along a Zen 2 cpu, 24-32GB memory, daaymn next gen gonna be lit.

Sorry to break it to you but im well aware of why most AAA games were 30fps for the past two generations and it's because of the lop sided hardware configurations in PS360 (lack of memory / GPU grunt) and PS4XB1 (terrible CPU).

For the first time in decades consoles will have a balanced spec with PS5 and XB2. There will be a ton of 60fps games. 30fps games will be in the small minority.

I agree that we'll see more 60fps games next gen, but it will be as part of a Performance Mode, which I expect to be mandated.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
It only means AMD don't wanna talk about NAVI features until full scarlet family reveal! or Maybe PS5 is revealed before E3!

AMD is going to "launch" Navi at every major consumer event this year it seems. If the performance is good, can't say I blame them.
I didn't know about this Apple connection,interesting...
Colbert , anexanhume any comment? :)

It's often repeated in the same breath as "Navi is for Sony." I don't necessarily get it though, as Apple doesn't demand bleeding edge GPU performance, even for their Pro lines. They simply soured on Nvidia due to all the thermal issues MacBooks saw.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
AMD is going to "launch" Navi at every major consumer event this year it seems. If the performance is good, can't say I blame them.


It's often repeated in the same breath as "Navi is for Sony." I don't necessarily get it though, as Apple doesn't demand bleeding edge GPU performance, even for their Pro lines. They simply soured on Nvidia due to all the thermal issues MacBooks saw.


Ah,i see.What do you think of expected "2080 level performance"? Sounds pretty good i guess,tho not sure what Navi model he is talking about.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,148
I agree that we'll see more 60fps games next gen, but it will be as part of a Performance Mode, which I expect to be mandated.

We already get more 60fps games this gen for eg most fps are now 60fps .
Problem is even with next gen 60 fps going to be hard with open world games which everything moving to .
They going add more npcs , gfx, etc etc add in ray tracing that everyone want and the power used up rather fast .
Truth is when comes to AAA i don't think there going to be much more 60fps games .
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
RT isn't Nvidia exclusive tho


Ray tracing is gonna be the PBR of next gen.

If this is achieved on Vega 56

.


I own a RTX 2080 and let me tell you, Ray tracing is VERY expensive. I dont have many games to compare but Metro especially incurs a massive framerate hit when turning on ray traced GI. I can run it at 60 fps on 4k native with ray tracing off. Turning it on, framerate literally halves and i have to settle for 1440p which is only 3.7 million pixels. And again, this is just a current gen game. Next gen games will use a lot of GPU resources on fancier effects, foliage, geometry and interactivity.

Just like with native 4k, i think devs will forgoe ray tracing in favor of fancy graphics. In BFV, you can hardly even notice ray tracing unless you are looking at windows and other reflective surfaces which are rare in a war torn game. i went into that fancy hotel just to see the reflections and i dont think it was worth the performance hit. Metro's ray traced Global Ilumination is much easier to notice but again, you need to be indoors and have sunlight coming in at a perfect angle to notice it. even then you will have to turn it off just to see how unreleastic the non ray traced image looks.

Point is that you dont notice it unless you do a direct compare. And i think GG and other first party devs will just go for baked lighting because they already do a great job lighting indoor areas without using ray tracing.
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
I dont remember a lot of games with 60fps performance modes
Sotc remake? Gears 5 will have it if I remember correctly? Probably missed a lot but its still far from a standard
Nioh had a 60FPS mode too. It was great.

Sorry to break it to you but im well aware of why most AAA games were 30fps for the past two generations and it's because of the lop sided hardware configurations in PS360 (lack of memory / GPU grunt) and PS4XB1 (terrible CPU).

For the first time in decades consoles will have a balanced spec with PS5 and XB2. There will be a ton of 60fps games. 30fps games will be in the small minority.

Prepare to be disappointed. Most cross gen games, yeah, they will be 60. But once we are beyond cross gen games, devs who care for graphics and simulation will push the hardware to its limits (which is 30FPS). 30FPS means better everything (higher res, more npc, better physics simulation, better lighting, better shadows, further draw distance, just more of everything) except game play fluidity. You are right that there are some devs that want 60 but can't have it with the current hardware, but there are many more who are fine with the compromise.

EDIT: I expect most, if not all, indie games to run at 60.
 
Last edited:
Jun 18, 2018
1,100
Ray tracing is gonna be the PBR of next gen.

Nah, further evolution of PBR is going to be the PBR of next gen:

https://autodesk.github.io/standard-surface/

Current spec / diffuse methods are approximations that don't produce fully accurate results. I expect devs will update their approaches.

& even if the next-gen did get some form of hardware RT support, it's likely it would be complementing currently existing techniques to provide dynamic GI, reflections, AO and / or shadows.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Is it really too much work though? Honestly think it's just a few setting limits that can be adjusted, even on a game patch.
Its really not that simple. Then again, its also pretty simple. The thing is that the game has to be built for that from the ground up. You can't just come and patch in 60fps after unless you have a glut of power miraculously (read enhanced consoles) to play with. Everything has to be taken into account. When your game was built, and you targeted 30fps, it means you are maxing out the CPU and GPU and even memory bandwidth while making whatever game you can make to hit that 33ms frame time. If you are targeting 60fps its the same thing and thus you will be targeting a 16ms frame time.

The only reason we have Base and performance/pro modes is because there are 2013 base consoles that must be built for, those consoles are still the baseline. Hence the extra power available with the enhanced consoles can be used to do "more". Thats not a luxury we will have when next gen come into full swing.... unless we have enhanced consoles again around 2023/2024.

Sorry to break it to you but im well aware of why most AAA games were 30fps for the past two generations and it's because of the lop sided hardware configurations in PS360 (lack of memory / GPU grunt) and PS4XB1 (terrible CPU).

For the first time in decades consoles will have a balanced spec with PS5 and XB2. There will be a ton of 60fps games. 30fps games will be in the small minority.
Those that don't want to hear..... will see.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
Sorry to break it to you but im well aware of why most AAA games were 30fps for the past two generations and it's because of the lop sided hardware configurations in PS360 (lack of memory / GPU grunt) and PS4XB1 (terrible CPU).

For the first time in decades consoles will have a balanced spec with PS5 and XB2. There will be a ton of 60fps games. 30fps games will be in the small minority.

What if CPU juice is used to help with Ray Tracing? I totally expect AAA cinematic games to continue running at 30fps tbh, but yes more games should have an easier time reaching 60fps next gen.
 

Deleted member 18161

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,805
What if CPU juice is used to help with Ray Tracing? I totally expect AAA cinematic games to continue running at 30fps tbh, but yes more games should have an easier time reaching 60fps next gen.

Ray Tracing is GPU based. If there's custom RT in PS4/XB2 (which I doubt) then there will be dedicated hardware for it.

There are already a ton of 60fps games this gen even if in some cases it's an option like Gears 4 / FH4.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
Ray Tracing is GPU based. If there's custom RT in PS4/XB2 (which I doubt) then there will be dedicated hardware for it.

There are already a ton of 60fps games this gen even if in some cases it's an option like Gears 4 / FH4.

CPUs have been used for RT for years, at least in the film industry.
 

discotrigger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
561
There seems to be a lack of academic foresight in the general discussion around next-generation 3D rendering. I've filtered some recent innovations in realtime rendering from Two Minute Papers (a YouTube channel which presents some of these findings and techniques in a digestible format) for your viewing pleasure.

Granted, many of these results aren't directly related to realtime 3D rendering, but quite a few of them are and might give you a glimpse into what people are working on behind-the-scenes aside from expensive brute force raytracing. There are many techniques you simply don't see in today's engines that can make remarkable improvements to lighting and overall graphical fidelity in rasterized 3D, and these tend to be cheaper and more likely to show up on the PS5.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Haven't been in this thread for a bit - was looking back but is there a post you're referencing you're asking about or just generally how E3 works?

Since you're back, does the concept of binning APUs for high performance SKUs make sense in the context of consoles?

I think that would be a great spot for next gen when paired with other GPU and APU architectural efficiency advances and a much improved CPU.

I think the claimed performance numbers are with said efficiency gains, but the CPU jump will be significant, no doubt.
 

discotrigger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
561
I also think it's worth noting that we can do limited raytracing to get the visual impact we want at minimal cost. Getting better indirect lighting on nearby objects and characters while introducing fallbacks at certain distances could allow us to use full raytracing more selectively. Alternatively, we can use far denser voxel cone tracing and fall back to cube maps at a certain distance so that nearby action is correctly represented. You can also determine the density needed based on the roughness of the material you're bouncing off of (this has been done to some extent with recent builds of Battlefield V). There are many ways to achieve the good things people notice about raytracing without going overboard, and we haven't seen too many devs experimenting with more extreme optimizations yet.

As as example, we could focus on getting characters' clothing reflecting correctly off of their skin and vice versa, giving reflective objects like eyes, swords, mirrors, guns, buttons, buckles, etc. a more realistic representation of 10 meters around them with 4x the voxels we've used on PS4/XB1. If done carefully and designed around, you can do a lot to impress and, well, trick gamers without going all the way. We'll also have better implementations of contact shadows, better skin simulation, and lots of baked, interpolated cloth and hair simulation to make those close-ups even more believable in other ways.

It's gonna' be dope as fuck even if we're talking the lower end of the power spectrum, guys. The worst-case scenario for next-gen is still pretty damn good when you give the reigns to competent artists and engineers.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
Since you're back, does the concept of binning APUs for high performance SKUs make sense in the context of consoles?

No. But that exact strategy that was used for the Project Scorpio Dev Kits which is why they have 6.6tflops. They were binned with the better parts. For a large-scale console release, no way that would make sense as it's far too unreliable at scale.

Welcome back Mr Penello.I think we were interested in that discussion how long in advance are E3 plans made by MS/Sony especially regarding next gen tech.

Hm. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to this because there haven't been that many E3's where next-gen consoles have been presented, and the debate on what was shown, and when, differed greatly each time.

I guess I can say this. First, there are probably less than 25 people within Xbox that know the exact plan. Phil and his directs as well as a small handful of others. People are brought in for their individual sections, but exactly what is being shown in what order is very, very tightly controlled and many things are code-named so if someone sees a list they don't know what the titles are. I always question when anyone says they "know" or "have heard" what someone is doing at E3 because the people that know aren't talking.

But it's not super hard to reverse-engineer what might be shown if you're following the industry, looking at all the different developers and triangulating what they are working on. It's why E3 bingo is so much fun.

As for consoles and what might be shown? It has a lot to do with balancing what action you want people to take, what you think you get strategically vs. waiting, and what you think the competition is doing. Since I'm not there, I don't know what the current team is thinking in this regards.

So your guess is as good as mine on this one. Scorpio reveal was pretty far out so they could do that level of unveil easily.

I'm personally not holding out for much in the way of a console news. There simply isn't enough reason to do it, and there are only downsides. If you're Sony, numbers are great, you're not at E3 anyway, and your next event is later in the year so why risk stalling any holiday sales.

For Xbox, because Sony isn't at E3 there is literally 0 risk of them taking any news cycles away, and like Sony, Xbox sales are good, people already know they are doing something since Phil said it last year, so I think they focus on games and xCloud.

If there is anything I'm guessing it will be something teaser-y like Scorpio if at all. And they can make the call to do something like that pretty late in the game.

Like I said - I have ZERO knowledge of the plan. They may have other reasons to do more so I'm not taking a hard stance they won't do more, but it would surprise me.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
No. But that exact strategy that was used for the Project Scorpio Dev Kits which is why they have 6.6tflops. They were binned with the better parts. For a large-scale console release, no way that would make sense as it's far too unreliable at scale.



Hm. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to this because there haven't been that many E3's where next-gen consoles have been presented, and the debate on what was shown, and when, differed greatly each time.

I guess I can say this. First, there are probably less than 25 people within Xbox that know the exact plan. Phil and his directs as well as a small handful of others. People are brought in for their individual sections, but exactly what is being shown in what order is very, very tightly controlled and many things are code-named so if someone sees a list they don't know what the titles are. I always question when anyone says they "know" or "have heard" what someone is doing at E3 because the people that know aren't talking.

But it's not super hard to reverse-engineer what might be shown if you're following the industry, looking at all the different developers and triangulating what they are working on. It's why E3 bingo is so much fun.

As for consoles and what might be shown? It has a lot to do with balancing what action you want people to take, what you think you get strategically vs. waiting, and what you think the competition is doing. Since I'm not there, I don't know what the current team is thinking in this regards.

So your guess is as good as mine on this one. Scorpio reveal was pretty far out so they could do that level of unveil easily.

I'm personally not holding out for much in the way of a console news. There simply isn't enough reason to do it, and there are only downsides. If you're Sony, numbers are great, you're not at E3 anyway, and your next event is later in the year so why risk stalling any holiday sales.

For Xbox, because Sony isn't at E3 there is literally 0 risk of them taking any news cycles away, and like Sony, Xbox sales are good, people already know they are doing something since Phil said it last year, so I think they focus on games and xCloud.

If there is anything I'm guessing it will be something teaser-y like Scorpio if at all. And they can make the call to do something like that pretty late in the game.

Like I said - I have ZERO knowledge of the plan. They may have other reasons to do more so I'm not taking a hard stance they won't do more, but it would surprise me.
Thanks! My thought was that if conceptualized from the beginning, you could downgrade higher SKU CPUs to lower tier SKU CPUs. The cost equation would be whether it was worth it to make the lower tier SKU package accept a higher tier "reject" die and its own customized die, but it doesn't surprise me the economics don't work on that.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
No. But that exact strategy that was used for the Project Scorpio Dev Kits which is why they have 6.6tflops. They were binned with the better parts. For a large-scale console release, no way that would make sense as it's far too unreliable at scale.



Hm. There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer to this because there haven't been that many E3's where next-gen consoles have been presented, and the debate on what was shown, and when, differed greatly each time.

I guess I can say this. First, there are probably less than 25 people within Xbox that know the exact plan. Phil and his directs as well as a small handful of others. People are brought in for their individual sections, but exactly what is being shown in what order is very, very tightly controlled and many things are code-named so if someone sees a list they don't know what the titles are. I always question when anyone says they "know" or "have heard" what someone is doing at E3 because the people that know aren't talking.

But it's not super hard to reverse-engineer what might be shown if you're following the industry, looking at all the different developers and triangulating what they are working on. It's why E3 bingo is so much fun.

As for consoles and what might be shown? It has a lot to do with balancing what action you want people to take, what you think you get strategically vs. waiting, and what you think the competition is doing. Since I'm not there, I don't know what the current team is thinking in this regards.

So your guess is as good as mine on this one. Scorpio reveal was pretty far out so they could do that level of unveil easily.

I'm personally not holding out for much in the way of a console news. There simply isn't enough reason to do it, and there are only downsides. If you're Sony, numbers are great, you're not at E3 anyway, and your next event is later in the year so why risk stalling any holiday sales.

For Xbox, because Sony isn't at E3 there is literally 0 risk of them taking any news cycles away, and like Sony, Xbox sales are good, people already know they are doing something since Phil said it last year, so I think they focus on games and xCloud.

If there is anything I'm guessing it will be something teaser-y like Scorpio if at all. And they can make the call to do something like that pretty late in the game.

Like I said - I have ZERO knowledge of the plan. They may have other reasons to do more so I'm not taking a hard stance they won't do more, but it would surprise me.

Fascinating.Thanks for the info,we appreciate it! :)
 
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