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New Evidence Supporting Credibility Of Tara Reade’s Allegation Against Joe Biden Emerges
- Thread starter Xaszatm
- Start date
this changes with EVIDENCE. i'm obviously not saying just because he doesn't have a long list of rape means he didn't do it, i'm only saying that it helps his case over hers. especially, for the 14th time, the evidence is circumstantial and there's not a whole lot of it
this is how it works in the court and in public opinion (and juries).
i'm also trying to find data for repeat sexual offenders and rapists and am having trouble. most numbers i see are in the lower quarter double-digits. i'd like to see them if anyone has research into (not opinion pieces).
That this post gets to just stand here for admitted victims of sexual assault to read is absolutely disgusting.
I mean, dude, circumstantial evidence is all you get in these kind of cases sometimes.
You think every victim is going to be Johnny Depp with 350 audio and video recordings and literally every person in his life as well as the police defending him etc... ?
These kind of private assaults are extremely hard to prove. All you can do is look at characters and circumstantial evidence.
You look at their history, what other people say about them, what they had to gain or lose etc... how credible they are.
That may not mean much in the eyes of the law (just like Depp could lose defamation lawsuit for technicalities) but in the court of public opinion ?
That does a lot.
The justice system is extremely flawed in some situations.
Here in France we just had a big scandal about an ice skater trainer that raped his trainees, not a single person here questioned the first woman that decided to speak about it. Not one. And eventually more people started to talk etc...
Yet there was no literal "proof" of it. Of course you can't put somebody in jail without the hardest of proof.
But you can absolutely form an opinion with the context you are given and act accordingly, on a personal level.
Should Joe Biden go to jail ? No, not with what we have.
But are people comfortable with Joe Biden becoming President after such a blurry moral line ? Hell no. And this is on top of everything else about the man.
Do you really think most sexual abusers are just openly evil people. This is not how shit works. This is not what I experienced. Many people thought they were just normal and doing normal things with a good reputation.
It's also a major reason why many people don't step forward. Because people who act this way often hide it well and they know the responses they'll get is "but they're a nice person".
So thanks for that
Vile vile vile
Statistics wouldn't even tell you the veracity of a single incident you just want to fling shit.
Agree. Also Biden already had a rep for being "handsy"(how this was ever ok i'll never understand). So he's not some upstanding citizen who just all of a sudden assaulted a woman.
Look it might be problematic thinking, but it is supported by facts when you look at the profile of people who commit rape. Its never just 1 unless they get caught right after that 1. But problematic obviously, because at the end of the day we will never know either way, unless 1 comes forward(never know if there is or isn't more victims). So unless Biden confesses, or she retracts her story this will probably be nibbled on in the sidelines of news coverage for the next couple of months but probably never fully blown story that carries weight.
I know people are calling for Investigate, investigate. I am sure News Organizations are investigating and trying to comb through prior staffers, friends etc.. trying to get some corroboration of other instances of this very serious allegation. But its not going to be easy to get that information, this is the presumptive Democratic nominee and looking at polls and general sentiment quiet possibly the next POTUS. Its politics in a presidential year and people are not going to want to lose an opportunity to get ahead.
Ok just to clear something up because that might have come out wrong at the beggining. I am not trying to diminish the allegation, however that general sentiment that the poster you replied to was describing is out there and real sadly.
Some really horrible shit was normalized in the past. If you like any big name music talents from the 70s who did a lot of touring and you don't want to have conflicted feelings about them, don't look into it.
But, the danger when acknowledging that something was normalized, is in forgetting that it wasn't fucking normal at all, even then. But that's how people do bad things and live with themselves, convincing themselves that 'everyone' was doing it.
A lot were, I'm sure, but this isn't something where culture has just changed, it's one of those situations where we can safely say at this point, that this sort of behavior should never have been normalized in media / news / locker room talk whatever. Like, for a really long time, there was no age of consent. At some point, we couldn't keep pretending that old people having sex with teens or kids was totally fine. It never should have been.
I can't really fathom how during the whole Clinton / Lewinski scandal, I never once stopped to consider the massive power imbalance and the uncomfortable questions that raised about consent. I see it now. Starkly and in flashing neon letters. I feel like an idiot for never considering it.
You think it's a fact that there hasn't been one or more cases where someone raped someone one time and never again? Also, I would put money down that a lot of people thought of as respectable did some horrendous stuff decades ago and haven't done anything since. Be it at parties, or where ever.
Serial rapists are easier to catch because they keep leaving new evidence over and over.
Basing things on conviction rates, when we know that rape is incredibly hard to prove in anything but the most shocking and brutal incidences is ignoring that the vast majority of rapes don't look like the ones that lead to prison time.
"If there's one, there'll be more," is a safe bet, like "always suspect the spouse", but it isn't a hard rule.
Obviously if suddenly we have evidence that Reade somehow made up the whole thing end convinced her family and friends to all lie to the press for her, that would be another story. Barring that, there's no reason to doubt her account. The "contrary evidence" so far has been easily refuted.
Is there anything Biden could do to demonstrate he isn't a rapist?
I told y'all to nominate the gay dude.
Having said that, I'm not sure how much this changes anything. Transcript seems to refer more to the general harassment claims that were brought up last year (and that Reade said she filed the complaint about) rather than these sexual assault allegations. It's too nonspecific to be considered hard proof, but I'd like to hear the full audio.
Having said that, I'm not sure how much this changes anything. Transcript seems to refer more to the general harassment claims that were brought up last year (and that Reade said she filed the complaint about) rather than these sexual assault allegations. It's too nonspecific to be considered hard proof, but I'd like to hear the full audio.
As I feel like I've said countless times at this point, while there might be an investigation of some nature, you aren't going to see Biden charged with anything no matter what due to the statute of limitation on this. Which is bullshit, of course, but anyone hoping for some ruling from some third party authority giving a clear answer to Biden's guilt or innocence is never going to get that.
You can ignore the allegations, or consider them. You can weigh up Reade's credibility. You can look at Biden's record and weigh that up. Ultimately, we are all going to be left with our own determinations.
Some will remain convinced he is innocent. Some will remain convinced Reade's account is true. Some will never get enough information to make a firm decision one way or the other.
And frankly, it's going to be a personal thing. We can talk about standards of guilt all day long. We can pretend that we can approach this like we are all courts... but there's a reason that a court uses a panel of jurors for crimes like this rather than just one person.
Baseless attacks against Reade's character are just a way to avoid weighing her account against the person we believe Joe Biden to be. Personally, I find them appalling, and I haven't seen anything levelled at her that came close to undermining her account in any way.
But I can't tell someone else they should have made their mind up by now. I was convinced by her account. People that haven't yet been convinced by what they've seen so far... they aren't broken or evil in my eyes. This new information has convinced some people that weren't there yet that what Reade is saying is true. We're all wired with different biases and amounts of skepticism.
You can ignore the allegations, or consider them. You can weigh up Reade's credibility. You can look at Biden's record and weigh that up. Ultimately, we are all going to be left with our own determinations.
Some will remain convinced he is innocent. Some will remain convinced Reade's account is true. Some will never get enough information to make a firm decision one way or the other.
And frankly, it's going to be a personal thing. We can talk about standards of guilt all day long. We can pretend that we can approach this like we are all courts... but there's a reason that a court uses a panel of jurors for crimes like this rather than just one person.
Baseless attacks against Reade's character are just a way to avoid weighing her account against the person we believe Joe Biden to be. Personally, I find them appalling, and I haven't seen anything levelled at her that came close to undermining her account in any way.
But I can't tell someone else they should have made their mind up by now. I was convinced by her account. People that haven't yet been convinced by what they've seen so far... they aren't broken or evil in my eyes. This new information has convinced some people that weren't there yet that what Reade is saying is true. We're all wired with different biases and amounts of skepticism.
Yeah, I don't know how anyone can say "it's never just one unless they get caught". It's completely impossible to know that, when often, sexual assault is never reported. Whether a mindset is common or not does not justify it or make it right, either. There is such a thing as rape culture. This kind of thinking is incredibly harmful, and gives victims even less of a reason to come forward unless they know there have been other victims, and that these victims are willing to come forward with them. Many rapists and sexual harassers appear to be 'normal' family people, who have pristine reputations. There isn't one specific type of person who can abuse others.
I am not talking about convictions rates. This has nothing to do with that. It has to do with how society has come to see how these sort of things play out when it comes to high profile individuals and allegations that can't be taken to court because of time and therefore play out on live TV. With Cosby it started at 1, same with others.. That sort of thing has sort of been how these stories have played out... It was 1 hit after another with some new accuser or further details that corroborate.
Not to mention that television has ingrained into the minds of the public that Rapist behavior is not one and done. The most successful Cop Drama on TV for the last 15 years has been dealing with rape case on TV and creating a profile for viewers of the rape culture and a profile of a rapist. I'll be honest, me and the wife watch that show almost every day(an episode or two in the afternoon, what can I say my wife really likes shows like that and ID stuff), and one of the major themes through out the show that gets brought up a lot is "its never one and done".
Maybe that is a conversation for another time though. Don't want to derail into a minute detail. But honestly I would love to have a conversation about that point. Is "its never just one" really a good analysis of a rapist?
The guy who had at best awful relations with non-white minorities?
Legitimately it feels weird to push this. Biden has had a history of violating the personal space of several women (And children). In addition today we now have collaborating evidence that this is an event that (Giving benefit of doubt) after the event happened was shared with multiple people at that time.
There's not much he can do besides provide full evidence that he was never remotely near her (And TBH it needs to be more than just a calendar pulled from an attic).
Reade is the person making the accusation, and she is credible, backed by corroborating accounts. Unless Biden has proof or some kind of evidence that shows she has made up her story, along with everyone else around her, no, there is nothing he can do to hurt Reade's account.
I mean, I'm not sure I understand the implication here? What can Biden possibly do if he doesn't hold evidence to damage her credibility?
It's not like Biden doesn't have 7 other accusers to answer to anyway. And his message to them was bullshit
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Nope.
See, there is a part in most peoples brains that don't want to believe the worst in people. Statistics teach us that in the vast majority of rape cases, the woman isn't lying.
Which is to say, that those of us who have taken the stance to believe the woman, will on rare occasions be incorrectly believing that man is a rapist. There is a non-zero chance that *this* is one of those rare occasions.
And it's that part of us that makes us want to believe the best in people that takes that slim possibility and holds onto it. And for decades it lead to the attackers getting the benefit of the doubt, even though far more often than not, they didn't deserve it.
Now to be clear I'm not talking about changing the legal standard for a conviction here or anything. But if I'm going to make a determination for myself, I'd rather risk mistakenly believe someone isn't committing the crime of making a false accusation, than mistakenly believe that a victim is lying about their own rape.
I'm going to paraphrase Ed Kemper:
It sounds to me like you've only been looking at the rapists who got caught.
To be fair, Fox News doesn't suddenly believe women and is doing this to help their cause. This story is only getting airtime there as a political weapon.
Also helps them claim "legitimacy" when they're running this story ahead of CNN etc.
Given Biden's history, not sure why he should be given the benefit of the doubt. At this point, he would need to prove Reade is lying without a shadow of doubt.
Is there anything Tara can realistically do to demonstrate he is? To an extent that people won't play devil's advocate?
Get ready for an exoneration parade if the current investigation doesn't turn up significant evidence to support Reade further.
Which is the very likely outcome here, as with most investigations of sexual assault
I don't think this is true. Certainly many rapists are serial rapists but not all of them are. Also, in Biden's case there are multiple people who have accused him of unwanted sexual touching, and video evidence of him touching women and girls inapproprtiately. he obviously has no compunction with treating women's bodies as objects for his own self gratification, but he may have some understanding that there is a line between being a creep snd being a rapist, and has been able to stay on the creep side of it except for this one time. It's also possible that Reade's complaint made him just a bit more cautious so that he continued being a grabby perv, but never again stepped over the line between thst and rapist.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/health/men-rape-sexual-assault.html . Details the profile of males and rape.
Couple that with what you see on TV and you start getting the picture of what is engrained in the general public mind when it comes to rapists.
I think it would go a long way if he released documentation on why she was relieved of her duties. A record of warnings showing that it wasn't as sudden as she claims.
That's not enough. There is nothing he can do that will clear his name of this. Even if its not a big story all over the news, it will stay with him through out the campaign.
OP
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yeah I know, but you are skipping the part of the rest of the pattern. Most do it in high school or college. But don't just take the article, also take into account how rapists are presented on the news and in TV. This whole "not just one thing" has played out with Cosby and Weinstein recently and you get pelted with it in TV shows etc.
That is my broader point. From the perspective of how and why its playing out as it is right now.
We aren't going to see a full criminal investigation when it can't lead to a conviction, and without a conviction, I can't see much happening. I know that Reade doesn't want to be used as an attack against Biden's election campaign. I know she doesn't want him to be the candidate.
I chose to believe her and support him anyway. I didn't settle on that easily. If I didn't and Trump wins reelection, I will struggle to look myself in the mirror. But that's holding me up to my standards. For other people to make peace with this, they will turn their back on this election and let things fall where they fall.
And that's probably completely appropriate. If this isn't one of those rare times where the accusations are false, he should have to live with this, not just through out the campaign, but for the rest of his life, unless and until he stops running from it.
Of course not, but for me, it would put a seed of doubt in my mind. Right now I have no doubt that it happened as described.
Which sounds crazy to me the DNC can't protect Biden forever this is gonna come up sooner or later.
I'm not sure that's the dichotomy. And I'm not sure assigning naivete about seeing the best in everyone as the motivation for not calling Biden a rapist is fair either. Do you think it's possible that a reasonable person could read all of the information we have available to us and be unwilling to conclude Biden committed rape? And by reasonable I mean not a rape apologist or someone dismissive of victims or some alt right men's rights activist. I mean someone approaching the situation honestly, fully embracing the idea of believe women and me too and simply not seeing enough to accuse a man of rape.
I guess I look at Warren and Sanders and Obama and don't really see people who would be willing to speak up for a man they believe is a rapist, especially the day after the investigative reporting comes out. And AOC especially, who came out and said victims should be heard but offered no comment at all beyond that. I can't imagine if she thought Joe Biden was a rapist she wouldn't make it a big deal. That she would not only silently accept but then loudly urge people to vote for someone she thought overpowered and raped a woman against a wall. I don't see them, or her, making the calculation of "that rape is ok because Trump has done and will do worse."
I think it's possible to both believe and support victims and also not see enough yet to label someone a rapist. And I think that's possible without having some flaw in the reasoning leading to that.
Yeah thats probably how it will play out unless something else happens. :/
What precisely is your broader point? Because from my perspective, you seemed to have made a spurious generalization about the common profile of a rapist and have spent the next few posts undermining your premise.
Like I said in my other post, we're all wired with our own standards and biases, myself included. I don't negatively judge anyone who looks at this and goes 'You know, I want to see more before I can make up my mind'. That's wholly appropriate to me.
I can't really say much more about my own feelings than to say that her account convinced me. I don't think that makes me better or worse than anyone else.
People reaching for any little thing to try and discredit her, that's a different matter all together.
Maybe I don't understand the banning info system, but did this dude really get banned for this remark?
She said she filed a sexual harassment claim. Have the records that would show this been unsealed?
Doesn't seem to be the case to me. Most will vote for Biden either way.
To be clear, it's not turning your back. You can still participate in the process. But this isn't the thread for that conversation anyway. I can respect still voting for him but recognizing the severity of the situation and not throwing Reade and others to the wayside to get there. Everyone has to make that choice for themselves, but all I ask is for people to do the right thing and fight for victims to have their stories heard.
That being said, there is a confirmed investigation happening right now. I'm not expecting anything but it would be nice if we learn new information.
Regardless, people who have been pushing this under the rug will definitely celebrate if nothing turns up. If it goes down that way it will be sad to see, but no longer surprising.
In that case is it fair to be made uncomfortable when others insist you're supporting a rapist even if your support is premised on the belief he hasn't been shown to be a rapist? That's the only situation I get uneasy about things. Like, my support isn't in spite of him being a rapist. My support is premised on the belief him being a rapist hasn't been demonstrated to this point.
If they were unsealed and the complaint wasn't there, would that serve as evidence in your eyes?
That doesn't say what you said.
"Some of these men commit one or two sexual assaults and then stop. Others — no one can yet say what portion — maintain this behavior or even pick up the pace."
That the lense of "theres never just one" is how this allegation as a whole is being viewed from by the National media and public. That in a sense right now they have set the bar on how these things play out on TV and 1 allegation of this nature will not derail this campaign or make for a sustainable story. That in order to make it national news they need that smoking gun. That if this allegation becomes Mainstream news and no other allegation comes out it will get buried and will have no effect in the general public because the public has been trained to expect 1 bomb after another in these sort of situations.
I guess that "searching for a pattern of conduct" when it comes to sexual allegations or just behavior in general has become a way for human beings to understand why x/y/z.
Lets also not kid ourselves.. I am sure there are Reporters out there that will not print this story for political reasons unless they are handed that smoking gun in a plate wrapped up.. Thus the sad reality during an election year such as this.
It would support Biden's claim. Not sure what you're getting at. You seem to think we shouldn't believe women because the accused is unable to provide an alibi or show the woman is lying.
Have to read the whole section though, since it brings up the other part of when it starts.
But i mean if you want any more evidence as to how society views Rapists.. Sex Offenders have to register as such when they are released.