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Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
That's an intellectual dead end. It makes no sense to say "moderate steps won't work because the Republicans won't cooperate, therefore we should embrace bold and massive steps because..."? Medicare For All is a cop out and not worth persuing because the right won't allow it, so let's just push for single payer? I'm reminded of that scene in High Fidelity where Rob says he got waved away when trying to touch a girl's breast, so he tried to go up her skirt instead.
How is Medicare For All a cop out? And why pursue moderate steps when the GOP is going to reject them anyway and will easily wipe away. Go for the big plays. That's the American way.

Helio's thing is to say "Working with the GOP will never work" and "Working with Moderate Democrats will never work" so you should never try, attack them continuously, and #walkaway.
Eh, working with moderate Dems would work. They're temporary allies. But you should always criticize them when they do bad things and praise them when they do good things.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
Are you pretending that Bernie never ran 2016? His shirt comings were clearly visible. Bernie lost the blacks votes with his racially blind agenda and ignorance on racial issues.
You can think that if you want. He definitely had some gaffes and foot in mouth stuff. But his agenda is anything but racially blind. All it takes is looking at for four minutes to see that.

And hillary (or beto) being not ignorant on racial issues is laughable, full stop.
 

medinaria

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,551
That's an intellectual dead end. It makes no sense to say "moderate steps won't work because the Republicans won't cooperate, therefore we should embrace bold and massive steps because..."? Medicare For All is a cop out and not worth persuing because the right won't allow it, so let's just push for single payer? I'm reminded of that scene in High Fidelity where Rob says he got waved away when trying to touch a girl's breast, so he tried to go up her skirt instead.

I like that you put the "..." right before the extremely obvious conclusion.

moderate steps won't work because the Republicans won't cooperate, therefore we should embrace bold and massive steps because getting anything at all requires total control of government.

and if our choices are nothing with republicans or something without them, why not make that something be bold and massive?
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
This just solidifies all the reporting about Bernie's campaign being full of Russian stooges colluding with them, too. Hey, not saying Bernie was in on it, but useful idiots come in all shapes and sizes to the Russians.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,673
People have said this 10 times in this thread and never once posted any evidence for it besides one poll. I don't even necessarily plan to vote for him depending on the field, but it's an absurd attempt at gatekeeping and really shows you live in your own bubble.
It's based on Bernie getting blown out on Super Tuesday the last time he ran for president. His 2016 outreach to black voters, particularly middle-aged and older black voters in the south, was anemic and his approach to them was literally dismissive. You can't win a Dem primary when you write off that much of the base electorate.

To his credit, Bernie has taken concrete steps to better campaign to black voters in the last two years. We'll see soon if it's enough but he'll have steep competition on that front with Biden, Booker, and Harris.

what was Hillary Clinton going to do with a Republican Senate
Odds are, had Hillary won, she would've flipped the Senate blue. There were a handful of races that could've been pushed over the finish line either way based on who won. For instance, Jason Kander probably would've made it into the Senate.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
I will vote for half of a week old meatloaf over Donald Trump. I'd prefer electing somewhat notably younger than Bernie, but I'm interested to see how Beto rebates and stronger policy stances.

Harris has been rocking it as my senator, though. I mean, honestly....whoever.

At this point, it's like quibbling with your surgeon about what brand of scalpel he's using, as you sit on the table in cardiac arrest.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
Helio's thing is to say "Working with the GOP will never work" and "Working with Moderate Democrats will never work" so you should never try, attack them continuously, and #walkaway.

Probably because moderates delay shit most of the time, not seeming to realize they will get ousted anyways.

If we are going to go in, we should do it wholeheartedly, with recognition that loss in power is inevitable anyways.

Like I am sure it will be the moderates who will cry "that's rigging" as we try to expand the House and make territories states, which means we will spend almost 2 years just trying to convince them that it is necessary and right for U.S citizens to get more proper representation.
 

Sokrates

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
560
User Banned (3 days): Hostility
This just solidifies all the reporting about Bernie's campaign being full of Russian stooges colluding with them, too. Hey, not saying Bernie was in on it, but useful idiots come in all shapes and sizes to the Russians.

Love the Red Scare rhetoric coming from shitlibs with brain worms. It's like 2016 broke you centrists and now you have to accuse all of your left or libertarian critics of being Russians, bots, or useful idiots.

If you should blame anyone for the loss, blame Abuela Nixon and James "Liberal Hero" Comey.
 

medinaria

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,551
Odds are, had Hillary won, she would've flipped the Senate blue. There were a handful of races that could've been pushed over the finish line either way based on who won. For instance, Jason Kander probably would've made it into the Senate.

sure, this is theoretically possible, but also not really germane to the point being made.

the point being made is that there are two options for a democratic president:

1: have a democratic house and senate, and pass legislation
2: do not have that, and do not pass legislation

it doesn't matter who the president is. it matters what party they're from. the notion being pushed that there is such thing as a "moderate candidate" that can "compromise with republicans" and "get things done" is flatly untrue, and should be readily apparent to anyone over the age of like 15. and that's what frustrates me - we spent SIX YEARS complaining about republican obstruction, and now suddenly it's "oh well if we nominate <candidate I like> they won't obstruct them"? no. that's not how this country works anymore.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Love the Red Scare rhetoric coming from shitlibs with brain worms. It's like 2016 broke you centrists and now you have to accuse all of your left or libertarian critics of being Russians, bots, or useful idiots.

If you should blame anyone for the loss, blame Abuela Nixon and James "Liberal Hero" Comey.
James Comey is part of the #resistance now so centrists have basically forgotten that he was partly responsible for Trump winning. And his expert advice is that dems should run a moderate candidate that would unite the country... you know... like last time.
 
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iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,540
Dallas, TX
I mean, on the one hand, Beto is legitimately the least progressive candidate in the race. Leftists in Bernie's camp have a legitimate interest in pushing back against that if they want to push things a far to the left as possible.

On the other hand, I think this Nate Silver tweet points at something real:



Bernie was only able to get as close as he did on the backs of a combined effort from committed progressive voters, and younger, more disengaged voters who care more about the general sense of energy and personal appeal of a campaign. Beto is a unique threat since he seems positioned to take that second group from Bernie in a way the other establishment candidates can't. Beto seems positioned to serve as a pretty fatal dagger to Bernie in the primary, even if he can't actually win for himself, so there's even more incentive for Bernie supporters to lay down the case that he can't win now and to keep him from running altogether.
 

Marshall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,010
Great, the Democrats will lose the Presidency in 2020. Sacrificing the good for the perfect.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I mean, on the one hand, Beto is legitimately the least progressive candidate in the race. Leftists in Bernie's camp have a legitimate interest in pushing back against that if they want to push things a far to the left as possible.

On the other hand, I think this Nate Silver tweet points at something real:



Bernie was only able to get as close as he did on the backs of a combined effort from committed progressive voters, and younger, more disengaged voters who care more about the general sense of energy and personal appeal of a campaign. Beto is a unique threat since he seems positioned to take that second group from Bernie in a way the other establishment candidates can't. Beto seems positioned to serve as a pretty fatal dagger to Bernie in the primary, even if he can't actually win for himself, so there's even more incentive for Bernie supporters to lay down the case that he can't win now and to keep him from running altogether.

Nate is missing an important part of this actually. It's not two groups, it's 3.

a) Lefties
b) Young People
c) Socially Conservative Is

Which is not bridged with ideology.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
This just solidifies all the reporting about Bernie's campaign being full of Russian stooges colluding with them, too. Hey, not saying Bernie was in on it, but useful idiots come in all shapes and sizes to the Russians.

LMAO. This reminds me so much of neogaf.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
91eG5wbTY+L._RI_.jpg
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
The Russian allegations are glaringly making many people defensive in this thread. The Russian lady doth protest too much.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
What happens if I don't particularly care for either of them?
I don't either. *Shrug*

The Russian allegations are glaringly making many people defensive in this thread. The Russian lady doth protest too much.
... Could you stop trying to paint literally everything that disagrees with you as having to do with Russia? It dillutes whatever point you're trying to make, because 99 out of 100 times you're not arguing with a Russian stooge.
 

Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
One I thing I know for sure those Russians, with their desire for division in the west, definitely would not want - some super smart liberals, who have figured it all out, telling all dissenters they're actually Russian stooges. Nothing at all divisive about that.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
I don't either. *Shrug*


... Could you stop trying to paint literally everything that disagrees with you as having to do with Russia? It dillutes whatever point you're trying to make, because 99 out of 100 times you're not arguing with a Russian stooge.
It's a legitimate allegations. The old site was in the top 5 referer to Hillaryclinton.com. We are on the Russian trolls' radar.

The briliant thing about the whole campaign is how you cant really prove it either way.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,429
It's based on Bernie getting blown out on Super Tuesday the last time he ran for president. His 2016 outreach to black voters, particularly middle-aged and older black voters in the south, was anemic and his approach to them was literally dismissive. You can't win a Dem primary when you write off that much of the base electorate.

To his credit, Bernie has taken concrete steps to better campaign to black voters in the last two years. We'll see soon if it's enough but he'll have steep competition on that front with Biden, Booker, and Harris.

I wonder if his "White people who were uncomfortable voting for a black person aren't necessarily racist" comment will come into play. It certainly highlights how much further he has to go.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
It's a legitimate allegations. The old site was in the top 5 referer to Hillaryclinton.com. We are on the Russian trolls' radar.

The briliant thing about the whole campaign is how you cant really prove it either way.
Or maybe the ones making the allegations are Russians as well and we're that spider-man meme
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
It would be a funny plot twist if Bernie actually wins the nomination and Russian troll farms start pretending to be angry Hillary/Beto/whoever voters.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,429
I'm the Russian Troll using a comparatively niche gaming message board where politics chat usually involves the same fifteen or so people to sway hearts and minds instead of any of the giant social media platforms
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
You mean overwhelmed. Neogaf at the time was not exactly impartial in 2016 race. I do recall a post mentioning that though.

Though the Hillary one was taken with praise since the site got noticed for it.
Your memory's a little off. The thread for the Hillary thing was >60% negative. You had people in literally every thread during 2016 saying that Bernie would be doing better, too and constantly complaining about all the Hillary stans. There would be constant primary relitigation in every thread.