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Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,885
I think the treatment of Naoto in P4 is just as bad.

Spoilers for Naoto's story arc in P4 and P4A:

I'll refer to Naoto with male pronouns, because that's what the character itself does even after the others find out he is biologically female.

- The big bad of Naoto's dungeon is a sex change operation.
- His friends are relieved to find out he's a "girl" and basically explain away his male "costume" as a phase.
- Then he is immediately signed up to be part of a swim wear beauty pageant, and made to have a bath scene with the girls who comment on how big his breasts are.
- "I was afraid back there" he says about the dungeon, and the others proceed to comment "well that's only natural since you're a girl!"
- If you want the MC to date Naoto, after the latter talks about how he wishes he had been born as a boy the MC expresses how he is happy and thankful that he's actually a "girl". The MC can then proceed to ask Naoto to speak in a lighter tone because he should sound more feminine to reflect this fact.

Keep in mind, throughout all of this Naoto not only keeps using male pronouns when talking about himself, but still speaks with a lower pitch and even in the direct sequel P4A we find out he still binds his breasts, much to Teddie's dismay.
Most of what you said is handled quite poorly however unless I am misinterpreting (which is possible) Naoto's dilemma was that she felt that she had to present herself as a man in order to be taken seriously by the world. It was a role that she reluctantly played similar to Kanji bleaching his hair to look more rough and tough. Honestly, correct me if I'm wrong but I just think in comparison this Erica stuff is 100 times worse.
 

Ragnite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
162
If this is true is it possible Erica would still transition in the future or do they remove that entirely? It's a little better with this context but concerning

Erika implies that she's an "angel-like young woman", which likely means she's still planning to transition in this alternate world, or at the very least that she doesn't really see herself as a man.

Tobi: うらやましいっス。あんな天使みたいな子、他にもどこかいないっスかね。
Erika: 案外、近くにいるかもよ。

Tobi: I'm jealous! Where are the other angelic girls like that [referring to Catherine]?
Erika: Surprisingly, they might be close.

She says this as she puts her arm around Tobi, giving the impression that she's talking about herself.
 

Brink

Member
Dec 18, 2017
512
A lot of hate for Hashino here.
Whilst he could have probably swerved them away from this and didn't, he isn't the writer or game director on this title.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
When did the transition happen though? Vincent is in his early 30s when the events of Catherine take place, right? What age was he in that time travel ending?

Also, I should point out that Catherine, the succubus, works in tandem with the crazy god for most of the game.

That said, if everyone else is the same age as before and only Erica is now Eric in that ending then that's just fucking disastrously bad. I feel there is more context needed but it looks tonedeaf to the criticism Atlus has faced in the past.
Here's the video if you want to check it out for yourself:

https://sendvid.com/39ldd924

And the change should have happened already, because Toby was the only one who didn't know Erica from before the transition, and he's there with everyone else, wearing his regular clothes.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I think the treatment of Naoto in P4 is just as bad.

Spoilers for Naoto's story arc in P4 and P4A:

I'll refer to Naoto with male pronouns, because that's what the character itself does even after the others find out he is biologically female.

- The big bad of Naoto's dungeon is a sex change operation.
- His friends are relieved to find out he's a "girl" and basically explain away his male "costume" as a phase.
- Then he is immediately signed up to be part of a swim wear beauty pageant, and made to have a bath scene with the girls who comment on how big his breasts are.
- "I was afraid back there" he says about the dungeon, and the others proceed to comment "well that's only natural since you're a girl!"
- If you want the MC to date Naoto, after the latter talks about how he wishes he had been born as a boy the MC expresses how he is happy and thankful that he's actually a "girl". The MC can then proceed to ask Naoto to speak in a lighter tone because he should sound more feminine to reflect this fact.

Keep in mind, throughout all of this Naoto not only keeps using male pronouns when talking about himself, but still speaks with a lower pitch and even in the direct sequel P4A we find out he still binds his breasts, much to Teddie's dismay.
When does Naoto refer to themselves with male pronouns after they join the party?
 

Orion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,856
You'd think things would at least slightly improve over time but they continue to show how little they care about treating LGBT people seriously.
Yeah, Yakuza has its issues, but at times it shows that the main protagonist is a somewhat decent human being.

DtJveWcVsAERfJq.jpg

C3SclmOWcAEVxBx.jpg

Look at Kiryu showing care and concern for LGBT issues and gender stereotypes. When will Atlus?
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,410
Singapore
A lot of hate for Hashino here.
Whilst he could have probably swerved them away from this and didn't, he isn't the writer or game director on this title.
He's still the producer iirc, and this is made under his Studio Zero and not P-Studio. Also they appear to have stated that much of the content in the game is material that was planned for the original game but dropped for "social reasons" and now restored. He is also doing most of the PR for the game, so he's clearly comfortable with speaking for it and being the face of the game.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
When did the transition happen though? Vincent is in his early 30s when the events of Catherine take place, right? What age was he in that time travel ending?

Also, I should point out that Catherine, the succubus, works in tandem with the crazy god for most of the game.

That said, if everyone else is the same age as before and only Erica is now Eric in that ending then that's just fucking disastrously bad. I feel there is more context needed but it looks tonedeaf to the criticism Atlus has faced in the past.
Just look at the picture in the OP.

Toby is right there, and he only met Erica post-transition.
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,746
A lot of hate for Hashino here.
Whilst he could have probably swerved them away from this and didn't, he isn't the writer or game director on this title.
  • He's a producer on the game and almost definitely had creative control of the game in some capacity
  • The concept of Full Body is exactly what he wanted to do for the original Catherine when he was directing it but couldn't due to the "social climate at the time".
  • He's had a past of bullshit like this
I really don't know why you're trying to excuse man
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Erika implies that she's an "angel-like young woman", which likely means she's still planning to transition in this alternate world, or at the very least that she doesn't really see herself as a man.

Tobi: うらやましいっス。あんな天使みたいな子、他にもどこかいないっスかね。
Erika: 案外、近くにいるかもよ。

Tobi: I'm jealous! Where are the other angelic girls like that [referring to Catherine]?
Erika: Surprisingly, they might be close.

She says this as she puts her arm around Tobi, giving the impression that she's talking about herself.
That actually does completely change everything.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,717
United States
What I don't understand is why do they always include some shit like this in their games. It would be so much easier to just avoid the subject altogether and not include any LGBT stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if there's a random closeted guy on Atlus Japan adding all this crap.

Even though it does happen, this is a harmful stereotype to assume. Bigotry shouldn't be attributed to self-loathing because it carries the implication that prejudice (homophobia and transphobia in particular) is self-inflicted by members of their own population. The vast majority of people who mock, disrespect, and hate minorities do so because of old fashioned supremacy over anyone different than them. That's external prejudice first and foremost. That is the real motivator for bigotry and that's what needs to be recognized here: most bigotry is arbitrary.

I know there is some truth to the stereotype. But consider how a victim of bigotry might feel to read people assuming their aggressors and oppressors must secretly be one of their own, especially here where the problem is a much broader cultural standard for disrespect towards people's identities. Just something to think about.
 

Brink

Member
Dec 18, 2017
512
He's still the producer iirc, and this is made under his Studio Zero and not P-Studio. Also they appear to have stated that much of the content in the game is material that was planned for the original game but dropped for "social reasons" and now restored. He is also doing most of the PR for the game, so he's clearly comfortable with speaking for it and being the face of the game.
Devs always say BS like "this was always our full vision". The Catherine art book doesn't have any reference to any of this, so I'm pretty sure it's PR nonsense.

I agree that as a producer he probably should have stepped in and said something. My point was that people seem to be under the impression that these parts have come from him, and there's no evidence.

As the studio lead it's his responsibility, but as an individual it's not his game.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,571
Japanese games being completely out of touch with social issues, I'm gagged.

I hope this bombs hard, just like VC4 did. Eventually they will have to understand society is evolving and shit like this don't get a pass anymore.
 

HaremKing

Banned
Dec 20, 2018
2,416
Erika implies that she's an "angel-like young woman", which likely means she's still planning to transition in this alternate world, or at the very least that she doesn't really see herself as a man.

Tobi: うらやましいっス。あんな天使みたいな子、他にもどこかいないっスかね。
Erika: 案外、近くにいるかもよ。

Tobi: I'm jealous! Where are the other angelic girls like that [referring to Catherine]?
Erika: Surprisingly, they might be close.

She says this as she puts her arm around Tobi, giving the impression that she's talking about herself.
If this is true then I feel this should be added to the opening post as this provides some much needed context.
 

TheMrPliskin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,564
A lot of hate for Hashino here.
Whilst he could have probably swerved them away from this and didn't, he isn't the writer or game director on this title.
I mean, he could've no doubt made sure this didn't get into the game and also previous games that he has written and directed have had similarly awful stuff. I'm not sure why he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
 

Hoot

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,120
Erika implies that she's an "angel-like young woman", which likely means she's still planning to transition in this alternate world, or at the very least that she doesn't really see herself as a man.

Tobi: うらやましいっス。あんな天使みたいな子、他にもどこかいないっスかね。
Erika: 案外、近くにいるかもよ。

Tobi: I'm jealous! Where are the other angelic girls like that [referring to Catherine]?
Erika: Surprisingly, they might be close.

She says this as she puts her arm around Tobi, giving the impression that she's talking about herself.

Huh. I hope if that's the case it will be localized well. Since apparently atlus USA is aware, there is hope. I'm still weirded out that specifically would just not have her already transitionned at that point tho.
 

AndyLonn

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
25
When does Naoto refer to themselves with male pronouns after they join the party?


Yeah, I don't remember this about Naoto at all

Also this whole thing seems to be blown out of proportions. I get that the trans community feels betrayed, but to treat this as a violation towards them is really blatently stepping on the "games as art" argument. The crew behind Catherine knew what they were doing. Whatever our reaction to it might be, I'm sure that this was their intent with the character


Also the "Angelic Girl" quote during the wedding scene sure seems like she might still transition in the future. As for Tobi not knowing Erica before the transition in the other realities, Catherine clearly changed things up by going back in time enough for most of their lives to change, and if Vincent and Catherine were a couple during their school days, it is pretty unlikely that they waited into their 30's to get married

What I'm saying here is that Atlus and the games creators have a lot of "outs" here, and the broad condemnation seems to me to be unjust.


Ya'll can shoot me if you feel differently though
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,410
Singapore
Devs always say BS like "this was always our full vision". The Catherine art book doesn't have any reference to any of this, so I'm pretty sure it's PR nonsense.

I agree that as a producer he probably should have stepped in and said something. My point was that people seem to be under the impression that these parts have come from him, and there's no evidence.

As the studio lead it's his responsibility, but as an individual it's not his game.
Who cares if it's "BS" or not if it's coming from him? If he's happy lying to claim credit for stuff people are giving him shit for, then that clearly suggests he not only has no problem with it, but supports that vision. Did it originate directly from him? Who knows. Is he the person who is in the most capable position to clarify and misdirected intend? Yes. Is he happy saying that this is his original vision? Yup. What does that say to you?

Let's say a company puts out a racist ad. The CEO of the company says "I am so proud of the ad campaign and it is based on a vision I've had since I started running this company." Does it matter if the ad is personally designed by the CEO? Lmao.
 

Deleted member 21411

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,907
Oh god, I cant defend this at all, jesus christ altus I don't think i can support you again with this shit
 
Last edited:
Jan 11, 2018
9,891
When does Naoto refer to themselves with male pronouns after they join the party?

In the JP script, at least. Might not be pronouns, in which case my bad, but as you know Japanese has more context sensitive words with implied gender that change based on the people you're talking about and these are definitely used to imply that Naoto is male, or considers himself as such. But still, he binds his breasts in P4A, long after being "accepted". There are enough clues to tell you he suffers from gender dysmorphia and is unsure, at the very least.

Naoto's dilemma was that she felt that she had to present herself as a man in order to be taken seriously by the world.

That's the explanation spoonfed to the player by Rise, more or less. if that was true, there wouldn't be any need to keep it up years later. Again, he binds his breasts as late as P4A, and keeps talking with a lower pitch even around friends. Naoto is clearly unsure, and the others trying to force the character into a box after they learn the birth sex is sad. Naoto himself is a good character, but also written to have issues way more complex than what Atlus are capable of dealing with.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Yeah, I don't remember this about Naoto at all

Also this whole thing seems to be blown out of proportions. I get that the trans community feels betrayed, but to treat this as a violation towards them is really blatently stepping on the "games as art" argument. The crew behind Catherine knew what they were doing. Whatever our reaction to it might be, I'm sure that this was their intent with the character


Also the "Angelic Girl" quote during the wedding scene sure seems like she might still transition in the future. As for Tobi not knowing Erica before the transition in the other realities, Catherine clearly changed things up by going back in time enough for most of their lives to change, and if Vincent and Catherine were a couple during their school days, it is pretty unlikely that they waited into their 30's to get married

What I'm saying here is that Atlus and the games creators have a lot of "outs" here, and the broad condemnation seems to me to be unjust.


Ya'll can shoot me if you feel differently though
Are you actually saying that games shouldn't be criticised for transphobia just because they're "art"?

Or is your issue that the complaining is too loud for your tastes?

People are free to say whatever the hell they want about art.
 

Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
It has been forever since I played Catherine, but isn't the entirety of the game based around a crazy god's idea that men and women need to get married and have children and so he kills a bunch of men that are not progressing towards marriage? I don't recall the game framing it as if the god's idea is correct, and the protagonist seems to go sharply against that idea in multiple endings, asserting that people should be free to choose whatever the hell they want. Indeed, I recall choice being the main theme of Catherine, though that may be different in Full Body, which is unfortunate if so.
More or less; The antagonist attempting to Kill Erica was not depicted as a good thing; more of a red herring that highlighted that the antagonist had backwards ideas about gender-roles and was sociopath.

As far as the Erica/What-ever-his-name-was relationship goes: All of the main characters were terrible people who did terrible things to each other, and none of them saw Karma for it. None. Not even the serial-killer antagonist. It was more-or-less a theme of the game. The issue comes in when you realize that a trans-trap is an over-used cliche and makes Trans-People look bad by virtue of it being so stereotypical in media. You rarely see a trans not trapping someone in movies/games and the like. It's the issue of how "one sexy woman in video game" isn't bad in-of-itself, but when "all women in video games are sex objects," you have a problem.


Final note: Atlus seems perfectly fine with screwing up their games' narratives when doing deluxe re-releases. They seem to focus on catering to fanservice and the like with re-releases, and this has been getting worse as time goes on.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
In the JP script, at least. Might not be pronouns, in which case my bad, but as you know Japanese has more context sensitive words with implied gender that change based on the people you're talking about and these are definitely used to imply that Naoto is male, or considers himself as such. But still, he binds his breasts in P4A, long after being "accepted". There are enough clues to tell you he suffers from gender dysmorphia and is unsure, at the very least.



That's the explanation spoonfed to the player by Rise, more or less. if that was true, there wouldn't be any need to keep it up years later. Again, he binds his breasts as late as P4A, and keeps talking with a lower pitch even around friends. Naoto is clearly unsure, and the others trying to force the character into a box after they learn the birth sex is sad. Naoto himself is a good character, but also written to have issues way more complex than what Atlus are capable of dealing with.
This is Naoto after Arena.
latest

While I understand the applicability involving the character I honestly think it's just Atlus playing into the tomboy archetype that's fairly popular.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Huh. I hope if that's the case it will be localized well. Since apparently atlus USA is aware, there is hope. I'm still weirded out that specifically would just not have her already transitionned at that point tho.
You know what? This could actually further validate her gender identity, as it doesn't tie it to her physical appearance, or her trauma that was alluded to in the original game. She's totally fine here, and sees herself as a woman.

I need to think some more about this, that post really completely recontextualized everything.
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,210
that's pretty gross. wasn't planning on getting this game, but any chance now is definitely gone.

never played the first catherine, what happened in that one that people are saying is bad?
 

Terranort

Member
Oct 27, 2017
442
Who cares if it's "BS" or not if it's coming from him? If he's happy lying to claim credit for stuff people are giving him shit for, then that clearly suggests he not only has no problem with it, but supports that vision. Did it originate directly from him? Who knows. Is he the person who is in the most capable position to clarify and misdirected intend? Yes. Is he happy saying that this is his original vision? Yup. What does that say to you?

Let's say a company puts out a racist ad. The CEO of the company says "I am so proud of the ad campaign and it is based on a vision I've had since I started running this company." Does it matter if the ad is personally designed by the CEO? Lmao.
And even then, the original Catherine with its original problems with the representation of Erica was directed by him. Persona 3,4, and 5 with their own problems with LGBT+ representations were also directed by Hashino.

So I see absolutely no reason why we should even try to give the man any sort of pass at this point.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,543
Yeah, Yakuza has its issues, but at times it shows that the main protagonist is a somewhat decent human being.

DtJveWcVsAERfJq.jpg

C3SclmOWcAEVxBx.jpg

There was actually a really transpobic substory in Yakuza 3. They recently released a PS4 remaster of it and completely removed it from the game. Before the release the producer of the game talked about changes and discussed the reasons behind it

However Yakuza is a work that was launched in 2009. Some things that were considered OK at the time are not as good as the current moral values. You know, Japan's social atmosphere has also changed a lot in recent years, so there have been slight changes in the performance of the game to match the current moral values and judgment standards.

The pictures you posted above are from later games, which I think shows that they've learned a lot over time. They aren't perfect by any means, but they're at least trying.
 

AndyLonn

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
25
User Banned (Permanent): Excusing and dismissing concerns surround transphobia; account still in junior phase
Are you actually saying that games shouldn't be criticised for transphobia just because they're "art"?

Or is your issue that the complaining is too loud for your tastes?

People are free to say whatever the hell they want about art.

None of the above, actually. I'm trying to say that whilst criticism is fine. This "WHAT HAS ATLUS DONE TO US" mentality, and the "What Atlus is doing is harmful" rethoric is ludicrous.

People can boycott the director, the producer or Atlus all they want. but to me this is just a boneheaded, out of touch thing the developer put in the game, that doesn't make the game any significantly worse for being in there.

And as I said in my previous comments, the fact that Erica says what she says in that new ending, sure makes it seem like she still identifies as a woman, so I still don't get what people are so upset about here tbh
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,095
India
Just look at the picture in the OP.

Toby is right there, and he only met Erica post-transition.

And the change should have happened already, because Toby was the only one who didn't know Erica from before the transition, and he's there with everyone else, wearing his regular clothes.

The sign in the video says that the scene takes place "Several Years Later", which leaves open the possibility that this is taking place before the events of the main game (which, if I'm not mistaken, is set 10 years after the high school flashback?).

It also seems, judging by the "angel-like girl" line Erica has, that she still sees herself as a woman. So maybe that scene is still pre-transition?

And given that the ending is set in an alternate timeline, is it impossible for Toby to meet Erica pre-transition?

Disclaimer: I haven't played Catherine, but I have been following this thread regardless.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
In the JP script, at least. Might not be pronouns, in which case my bad, but as you know Japanese has more context sensitive words with implied gender that change based on the people you're talking about and these are definitely used to imply that Naoto is male, or considers himself as such. But still, he binds his breasts in P4A, long after being "accepted". There are enough clues to tell you he suffers from gender dysmorphia and is unsure, at the very least.



That's the explanation spoonfed to the player by Rise, more or less. if that was true, there wouldn't be any need to keep it up years later. Again, he binds his breasts as late as P4A, and keeps talking with a lower pitch even around friends. Naoto is clearly unsure, and the others trying to force the character into a box after they learn the birth sex is sad. Naoto himself is a good character, but also written to have issues way more complex than what Atlus are capable of dealing with.
By the time of the Golden epilogue, Naoto has fully stopped binding her breasts, as well as specifically dressing more feminine.

You're severely misinterpreting her character arc. You can not like it, sure, but the way your describing it it's clear that you didn't get it. The whole thing is about her not feeling like she is taken seriously as a woman, so she began to identify as a man in public. Her shadow helped her see that she really is a woman and that forcing herself to be something she's not is really bad for her. It takes time for her to fully stop identifying as a man, but amongst her close friends she never once identifies as such post-shadow, and as of the Golden epilogue a year later it's implied that she no longer identifies as a man at all and is far more comfortable in her life as a result.

Again, you can dislike that due to the unfortunate implication that the solution to gender dysmorphia is to just be comfotable with your biological gender, but claiming that Naoto is not a woman is completely missing the whole point of the arc.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,939
I'm seeing a lot of people heart broken that they "destroyed" Erica in Full Body, so here are a few pieces of information that I hope those attached to the character feel a bit better about :

- Catherine wasn't trying to improve anyone's life but hers and Vincent's, and just went back in time to meet him a lot sooner

- "Eric" is shown to be rather effeminate, and is voiced by the female VA of Erica

- Tobby says he wishes he'd find a "nice girl" like Catherine.

Erica (as Eric) grabs him and tells him "there might be a woman like that closer than he thinks" (obviously referring to herself, so it's more likely she has not come out yet or is about to transition rather than won't transition at all IMO)

- Some bad jokes like Erica not being able to join the female wrestling league have been taken out of the game

- The "deadnaming" in the credits at least makes sense this time because both versions of the character are seen at different point in time, and voiced by the same VA. There is a capitalization of the A on EricA which can be seen by some as a negative though.

- Erica remains herself in all of the endings (over a dozen) except the one that involved Time Travel, which, to me, is a very bad 4th wall breaking wink at the audience as to what the future holds for her and a lazy way to show the effects of "time travel".

Atlus should absolutely have handled things better (and they have some answers to provide, as well as making sure the localization is flawless / adresses those issues) and with such horrible track record it's normal for people to assume the worst, but I really think this wasn't meant to show that she's "better off as a man thanks to Catherine's magic !" like the early sentiments were.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
The sign in the video says that the scene takes place "Several Years Later", which leaves open the possibility that this is taking place before the events of the main game (which, if I'm not mistaken, is set 10 years after the high school flashback?).

It also seems, judging by the "angel-like girl" line Erica has, that she still sees herself as a woman. So maybe that scene is still pre-transition?

And given that the ending is set in an alternate timeline, is it impossible for Toby to meet Erica pre-transition?

Disclaimer: I haven't played Catherine, but I have been following this thread regardless.
That does seem to be the case.

Weird that they would keep everyone's designs the same if it's not the same time period, when they gave Erica a new design, but I do think this is all correct.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
.... uhm,,, Excuse me?
You're comments might come across as callous to some though I'm guessing that's not you're intention.

While I'm leaning towards this being Atlus massively fumbling an attempt to address criticism for the original game vs deliberate hatred, this is still a very sensitive matter and we should try our best to not come across as uncaring.

This is a very unfortunate situation and I really hope Atlus listens to reason.
 

Annubis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,675
The sign in the video says that the scene takes place "Several Years Later", which leaves open the possibility that this is taking place before the events of the main game (which, if I'm not mistaken, is set 10 years after the high school flashback?).

It also seems, judging by the "angel-like girl" line Erica has, that she still sees herself as a woman. So maybe that scene is still pre-transition?

And given that the ending is set in an alternate timeline, is it impossible for Toby to meet Erica pre-transition?

Disclaimer: I haven't played Catherine, but I have been following this thread regardless.
That's what I get from watching the ending which someone posted here (https://sendvid.com/39ldd924).

From the video, I feel this scene is before the transition and he plans to go ahead with it.
So either this is earlier in the story or his transition was delayed for some reason.

EDIT: as said below, the timing would be off but then that timeline would have Toby join earlier or something because it feels like Eric and Toby are close friends (or even more?) already.
 
Last edited:

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,635
When did the transition happen though? Vincent is in his early 30s when the events of Catherine take place, right? What age was he in that time travel ending?

Also, I should point out that Catherine, the succubus, works in tandem with the crazy god for most of the game.

That said, if everyone else is the same age as before and only Erica is now Eric in that ending then that's just fucking disastrously bad. I feel there is more context needed but it looks tonedeaf to the criticism Atlus has faced in the past.
We know it has to be around the time that the events of the game happen becauseToby is in his mechanic outfit and he only got that job shortly before the game begins.
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,891
This is Naoto after Arena.
latest

While I understand the applicability involving the character I honestly think it's just Atlus playing into the tomboy archetype that's fairly popular.

Much like how Nintendo eventually made Birdo canonically female. Which is just as bad. Atlus exploited a real issue in the games only to create some semblance of depth only to dismiss it as some kind of phase (why even bother involving topics like binding breasts for years?). They did the same with Kanji. Oh gee, I guess he's not into men at all knowing Naoto's birth sex. Now he can confess his love without having to worry about that stuff. What a relief! Who knew his dungeon was only about him being afraid of being rejected for liking cute things and knitting and not about repressed sexual feelings towards other men. /s

I'm sorry, but anyone who gives Atlus a pass on how they deal with LGBT issues needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,478
You're comments might come across as callous to some though I'm guessing that's not you're intention.

While I'm leaning towards this being Atlus massively fumbling an attempt to address criticism for the original game vs deliberate hatred, this is still a very sensitive matter and we should try our best to not come across as uncaring.

This is a very unfortunate situation and I really hope Atlus listens to reason.
Suggesting that criticizing representation is analogous to denigrating something as an art form is either incredibly stupid or monstrously dismissive. Probably both.
 

Hoot

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,120
If it's actually very much implied that she is still going to transition, it soften the blows a bit (although it's still weird they'd go out of their way to just specifically show Erica pre transition). And I can appreciate the removal of the off colour jokes
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,967
Much like how Nintendo eventually made Birdo canonically female. Which is just as bad. Atlus exploited a real issue in the games only to create some semblance of depth only to dismiss it as some kind of phase (why even bother involving topics like binding breasts for years?). They did the same with Kanji. Oh gee, I guess he's not into men at all knowing Naoto's birth sex. Now he can confess his love without having to worry about that stuff. What a relief! Who knew his dungeon was only about him being afraid of being rejected for liking cute things and knitting and not about repressed sexual feelings towards other men. /s

I'm sorry, but anyone who gives Atlus a pass on how they deal with LGBT issues needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Isn't the entirety of Persona 4 about how everything is a passing fad and you'll conform to society when you grow up
 

MinusTydus

The Fallen
Jul 28, 2018
8,220
This is a very unfortunate situation and I really hope Atlus listens to reason.

Atlus JP will do exactly what they always do: nothing.

Atlus US will do exactly what they always do: "It's not us, you guys. It's Atlus JP! We really want to change it, but they won't let us!"

And people will continue to defend them.