[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)

[Velezcora]

Wow this is really awful. WTF Atlus?
It's a shame Atlus USA doesn't have a forum because if they did we could at least go over there and make a big deal out of this.
Why can't they just leave Erica alone? If you're a straight cis dude, I get it, you don't know what being trans is like. So don't tackle it.

 

[Gradon]

I loved Erica, she was such a breath of fresh air in Catherine and I hated what the game threw at her.

I'm at a loss of words, this is disgusting and I'm really mad right now.

 

[Deleted member 41933]

This might honestly be the most offensive thing Atlus has ever done.

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Doesn't sound offensive to me, it's a ficitional character with a ficitional story...

 

[Dreamboum]

Watch as Hashino rises ranks whereas Atlus made people go away for far less offensive stuff

 

[Hoot]

God this is such a bummer :(

I really liked Erica. I didn't like the way the game treated her, but I always love when there's at least trans representation which doesn't demonize. This is such a massive slap against those fans. Litteral trans erasure in the plot. It actually physically pains.

The silver lining is at least hearing some japanese fans are at least bring it up ? I'm hoping it's a bigger number that I'm imagining.

This is also incredibly bad as I really loved Persona 5 and, despite the gay scare, i was like "maybe they will be at least trying to go in a more socially conscious direction", but I guess Hashino just does not give a fuck about LGBT issues

 

[Velezcora]

Don't know if anyone else spoke about this in the thread (too many pages to read) but if any of you are aware of any transgender charities based in Japan please share them. Those people need help the most and hopefully with enough funds they can make their voices heard more in Japanese society!
Hashino won't fucking change if nobody challenges him.

 

[Kyari]

Doesn't sound offensive to me, it's a ficitional character with a ficitional story...

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In what world does something being fictional preclude something from being offensive?

 

[Sibylus]

Doesn't sound offensive to me, it's a ficitional character with a ficitional story...

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Fiction doesn't exist in the void with the platonic ideals, and you know that.

 

[texhnolyze]

Doesn't sound offensive to me, it's a ficitional character with a ficitional story...

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Really?

 

[Deleted member 13707]

Doesn't sound offensive to me, it's a ficitional character with a ficitional story...

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Yeah, but this "ficitional" character's story resonated with a fair amount of its players, so this recent revelation is kind of spitting in their face.

 

[Dust]

Not really surprised, considering Erica's whole character was a set up for a joke at the end of the game.
I guess they consider Erica transitioning "illness" and this ending is the "cure".

Not sure what Atlus was expecting here.

 

[duckroll]

Watch as Hashino rises ranks whereas Atlus made people go away for far less offensive stuff

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How much more can he rise? He has a whole sub studio under him now with all the best staff just to spearhead a new IP. He's top dog at Atlus. Already the highest.

 

[StraySheep]

That's because she didn't, she never said she was going back in time to improve everyone's lives. She goes back in time to create a timeline in which her and Vincent could meet earlier, under different circumstances.

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If you're being honest with us / certain of your translation then that's a very different read than most of the thread.

 

[Giever]

If they are responsible for localizing hateful content and marketing it to consumers, then they don't get to handwave all responsibility away by saying "but they made all the decisions, we're just following orders". They need to share the responsibility for the global spread of an extremely hateful product. They don't get to claim total blamelessness here.

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To what end? They aren't the ones to blame for the content, and their choices are basically either do as best they can to mitigate it, or go kick rocks. In which case they'd be out of work, this release would be fucked (minor short-term positive?), and Atlus would eventually get more amenable (to them) individuals working at Atlus USA (major long-term negative).

 

[Deleted member 4976]

Absolutely disgusting. Atlus can fuck right off.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Where were YOU the day Atlus and all their work got cancelled

 

[Celine.D.Sykes]

Persona 3 had a trans woman who the cast pointed out forgot to shave, humiliating her in a public space, Persona 4 famously featured Kanji's crippling fear of his own sexuality, and Persona 5 featured a gay couple who not only stalk the protagonist and Ryuji, but eventually molest Ryuji offscreen, resulting in the protagonist mocking him after the fact.

This isn't ignorance. This is malice. The series has actively made an effort to make queer people the butt of jokes, and when they're not the joke itself, it's them subjecting others to their queerness that is the "joke", such as everyone making fun of Toby for being in a sexual relationship with Erica, all because she's trans.

It's really not surprising at all to me that the one game in the SMT canon that depicts a gay relationship in a respectful manner is the one Hashino wasn't involved in the production or direction of: Persona 2.

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Yes.

I'd label it as a mistep if it was only one time, but Atlus past awful representation of LGBTQ+ leaves no doubt.

 

[Deleted member 2172]

Is there proof this is true other a tweet in the OP? If it is true, that's fucking shit from Atlus but how do we know this isn't just someone stirring up controversy?

 

[Andrew-Ryan]

Can someone explain to me how this is transphobic? Haven't been following this game/series.

 

[GongagaSOLDIER]

This is extremely disappointing. While the first game had its issues, it handled the subject of sex and sexuality, along with other taboo subject matter in a way that allowed an introspection of the more stereotypical and depressing attitudes of the past. Whether intentional or not (I wrote a whole article on it) it demonstrated the typical assumptions about male desire quite literally manifesting them as 'sheep', with each of the games endings representing the warped excuses Vincent makes to have done what he has (*cough succubus *cough). Here the line is pushed too far and rather than allowing for any sense of mirror to the bigoted society that still exists and the building of Vincent as the ultimate anti-hero, we get something which isn't allegorical but a depressing manifestation and lack of care with the representation of an already underrepresented population in media. Here they had the opportunity to show growth and have Tobey be one to overcome any feelings of judgement from his 'friends' because he accepts Erica for who she is, instead we get *this*. I definitely think taboo subject matter has a place in video games content as it does in films and TV but not when it is handled distastefully and potentially in a damaging way as it is leveraged in this ending.

 

[Eumi]

Is there proof this is true other a tweet in the OP? If it is true, that's fucking shit from Atlus but how do we know this isn't just someone stirring up controversy?

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Have you just not bothered to check the threadmarks?

 

[TheMrPliskin]

Is there proof this is true other a tweet in the OP? If it is true, that's fucking shit from Atlus but how do we know this isn't just someone stirring up controversy?

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Because there's numerous other examples from this game and previous games of Atlus being shitty. Also why would anything in the OP make you jump towards this being fake.

 

[Datajoy]

To what end? They aren't the ones to blame for the content, and their choices are basically either do as best they can to mitigate it, or go kick rocks. In which case they'd be out of work, this release would be fucked (minor short-term positive?), and Atlus would eventually get more amenable (to them) individuals working at Atlus USA (major long-term negative).

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No matter what the circumstances, they are working on the localization and promotion of a piece of entertainment that promotes transphobia, and normalizes hate. If people there wanna say "but I like my job so there's nothing I can do here" then they are free to say that, but that doesn't absolve them of shared responsibility for what they are working to promote. I'm not calling for people to be fired or advocating for any particular outcome here, I'm just asking that we please cease with the narrative that people working on the US side of Atlas are blameless here.

 

[Deleted member 3038]

And people expect Atlus to treat the LGBT community better in P5R re-release.

Fuck off, Atlus.

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I passed on playing Persona 5 as soon as I saw the LGBT Rep in that game (As much as it pains me because the Music & Gameplay is great), But I'm not going to sit there and be ridiculed by Devs who obviously think it's funny to make fun of LGBT people & Use stereotypes. So I find it funny that people still think that a P5 Re-release will somehow magically fix this when they are still pulling this nonsense on their newer titles.

In fact, It's reached the point where I'm debating even getting Joker in Smash due to the fact that It might give Atlus some income that they don't deserve at all at this point

 

[Dreamboum]

How much more can he rise? He has a whole sub studio under him now with all the best staff just to spearhead a new IP. He's top dog at Atlus. Already the highest.

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Well, this is bad

 

[aSqueakyLime]

Have you just not bothered to check the threadmarks?

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not that person but how do you check threadmarks? I still have no clue lol

EDIT; nvm I'm dumb, found it

 

[Strafer]

Now I'm a bit disappointed in Troy Baker for signing up for this.

 

[Giever]

No matter what the circumstances, they are working on the localization and promotion of a piece of entertainment that promotes transphobia, and normalizes hate. If people there wanna say "but I like my job so there's nothing I can do here" then they are free to say that, but that doesn't absolve them of shared responsibility for what they are working to promote. I'm not calling for people to be fired or advocating for any particular outcome here, I'm just asking that we please cease with the narrative that people working on the US side of Atlas are blameless here.

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But do you have a response to my particular point? Do you think, being in their position, even putting aside survivalist reasons (keeping their jobs), there's a better socially positive option for them than trying their best to mitigate the harm and sticking around to be the ones who will continue to be able to do that, rather than potentially being replaced by individuals less concerned about that? If that's the case, then I personally don't feel comfortable blaming them.

 

[massoluk]

Jesus, that's terrible

 

[AztecComplex]

Holy crap. Both "Catherine" and "Atlus" are trending topics on Twitter. Shit hit the fan all at once everywhere it seems.

 

[AztecComplex]

Now I'm a bit disappointed in Troy Baker for signing up for this.

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Oh c'mon! This is not on him!

 

[Bufbaf]

Holy crap. Both "Catherine" and "Atlus" are trending topics on Twitter. Shit hit the fan all at once everywhere it seems.

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Gamergate/MRA communities will eat this up and revel in all the "triggered SJWs" to mark this down as a victory for the straight white minority.

Goddamnit Atlus.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

These sort of games where introspective messages are part of the core narrative are just about the worst places for shit like this.

It's even more so an issue when the works are otherwise pretty good and critically acclaimed. Just trying to get large parts of the fanbase to even discuss issues like this is an uphill battle because you're talking about a negative point in something they really like. Many are quick to take personal offense instead of simply separating good from bad.

 

[MinusTydus]

Oh c'mon! This is not on him!

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Why not? This is a niche video game, not the next installment of Star Wars. There is no reason to believe he wasn't given a full script. Which means he knew this was in there. He's the main character. He's seen all of the endings.

 

[Deleted member 679]

Why not? This is a niche video game, not the next installment of Star Wars. There is no reason to believe he wasn't given a full script. Which means he knew this was in there. He's the main character. He's seen all of the endings.

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Who knows how this will be represented in the english version, though. Or how it was communicated to him.

He said before that when he got the role for Kanji they just straight up told him that the character is gay, which going by what someone else said in this thread is 100% confirmed to not be true by the developers. And the game itself implies that he's bi at most, the way I see it.

I don't think the actors get a full picture of the story until they see the whole game, except for those AAA productions where they do all the mocap and stuff like that, but lower budget games probably feel very disconnected when you're just recording random scenes sometimes out of order.

 

[Datajoy]

But do you have a response to my particular point? Do you think, being in their position, even putting aside survivalist reasons (keeping their jobs), there's a better socially positive option for them than trying their best to mitigate the harm and sticking around to be the ones who will continue to be able to do that, rather than potentially being replaced by individuals less concerned about that? If that's the case, then I personally don't feel comfortable blaming them.

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What have the done to mitigate the harm exactly?

 

[Giever]

What have the done to mitigate the harm exactly?

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I don't know specifics, but my understanding from this thread is that they disagree with Atlus JP on a lot of stuff like this (but aren't typically heard) so have to do what they can regarding localization.

Specifically the trans industry member's post that was threadmarked mentioned this:

I have it on good authority that Atlus USA has been...doing their best with what they've been given. But I still expect this content to be in the Western release. Ugh.

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So I tend to think this situation (and presumably others) could be a lot worse, even if it sucks as it is.

 

[Ragnite]

If you're being honest with us / certain of your translation then that's a very different read than most of the thread.

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I am, and I'm not the first to mention there's no specific mention of the alternate dimension that Catherine creates being one where "everyone is happier".

This is the scene in question, obvious spoilers: https://sendvid.com/39ldd924 . Vincent mentions "お互い、もっと違って形で出会えてればな", showing his feelings for Catherine and wishing that they could have met under different circumstances. Catherine then reassures him and creates a portal where they go back in time, in an alternative reality where they're classmates in highschool and end up marrying later.

I think it's absolutely fair to ask why Erika hasn't transitioned in the wedding scene, or why Erica is deadnamed in the credits, but the idea that "Catherine goes back in time to make everyone happier and makes Erika not trans" seems to be completely false.

 

[NotLiquid]

Why not? This is a niche video game, not the next installment of Star Wars. There is no reason to believe he wasn't given a full script. Which means he knew this was in there. He's the main character. He's seen all of the endings.

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A lot of voice actors rarely get the full context of the context of the work they're involved in. Sometimes they don't even get proper character designs presented to 'em. Obviously Catherine is a known series at this point and Troy would know fully well who he's voicing but that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't know of the dialogue in any other capacity than isolation. As an example, I think I recall when Feep returned to voice in Danganronpa V3, he mentioned that he had zero context for most of his spoken lines and couldn't necessarily infer any spoilers from it.

 

[Deleted member 2793]

I think it's absolutely fair to ask why Erika hasn't transitioned in the wedding scene, or why Erica is deadnamed in the credits, but the idea that "Catherine goes back in time to make everyone happier and makes Erika not trans" seems to be completely false.

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"Completely false" is subjective if this is meant to be a good/happy ending. It puts Erika not transitioning in a positive scenario-in a "better" world.

 

[BassForever]

Why not? This is a niche video game, not the next installment of Star Wars. There is no reason to believe he wasn't given a full script. Which means he knew this was in there. He's the main character. He's seen all of the endings.

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A lot of voice actors rarely get the full context of the context of the work they're involved in. Sometimes they don't even get proper character designs presented to 'em. Obviously Catherine is a known series at this point and Troy would know fully well who he's voicing but that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't know of the dialogue in any other capacity than isolation. As an example, I think I recall when Feep returned to voice in Danganronpa V3, he mentioned that he had zero context for most of his spoken lines and couldn't necessarily infer any spoilers from it.

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As another example, the voice actor for Alvin in Tales of Xillia 1/2 had no idea the mc of Xillia 2 was a silent protagonist. A fan had to tell him in a q&a and he looked completely surprised.

 

[NotLiquid]

Anyway, Hashino isn't involved with P6 is he? I remember reading something once about him stepping out of directorial duties or whatever. Is there any truth to that?

 

[Deleted member 1273]

Anyway, Hashino isn't involved with P6 is he? I remember reading something once about him stepping out of directorial duties or whatever. Is there any truth to that?

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I think he is going to focus on Re:fantasy which I really look forward to see

 

[TheMrPliskin]

Anyway, Hashino isn't involved with P6 is he? I remember reading something once about him stepping out of directorial duties or whatever. Is there any truth to that?

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He's left P-Studio to go and work on a new Fantasy IP along with some other members from P-Studio, this game was developed by that new team, Studio Zero.

 

[daegan]

I am suddenly really glad that Hashino isn't at P Studio anymore, and really disappointed that this game I used to like a lot is getting dragged so much further down than it even was before.

 

[oni-link]

This is pretty fucking bad. Atlus really need to sort themselves out with this kind of thing. I beat Persona 3 recently and there was one part that was pretty awful in that too, but this is orders of magnitude more offensive

That said, I'm glad the sites stance is not to ban the game. I prefer that we discuss, condemn and let our thoughts be known, rather than brushing it away and pretending it doesn't exist

 

[bytesized]

Are these things intentional or are they just clueless?

 

[Datajoy]

I don't know specifics, but my understanding from this thread is that they disagree with Atlus JP on a lot of stuff like this (but aren't typically heard) so have to do what they can regarding localization.

Specifically the trans industry member's post that was threadmarked mentioned this:

So I tend to think this situation (and presumably others) could be a lot worse, even if it sucks as it is.

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Hmm well I appreciate your post, I suppose it has caused me to moderate my stance a bit. I still think that we can't 100 percent absolve them of any responsibility, but I do admit that it is a more nuanced and complex situation that the I was insinuating.

 

[greenwell]

This is indefensible.

I am suddenly really glad that Hashino isn't at P Studio anymore, and really disappointed that this game I used to like a lot is getting dragged so much further down than it even was before.

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Yeah, remember Persona 2's MC was canonically bi? Glad Hashino left.

 

[NotLiquid]

I think he is going to focus on Re:fantasy which I really look forward to see

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He's left P-Studio to go and work on a new Fantasy IP along with some other members from P-Studio, this game was developed by that new team, Studio Zero.

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I see. Well, that's good. I like Persona a lot but if Full Body is an indication of Hashino at his most "Hashino", then I'd prefer someone else take the reigns. Persona has a lot of bullshit of its own to deal with but compared to Full Body that all seems like a drop in a bucket and I wouldn't want it to get any worse than it already is.