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Magic: the Gathering |OT| Innistrad: Midnight Hunt - We're not in Eldraine anymore
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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That's not a 'win by itself' tho? At least, not in the same way the rules committee states is the reason for unbanning worldfire.
Derevi and Yuriko can ignore commander tax entirely, and Derevi doesn't even require an alternate body to bounce.
Golos perhaps requires an arbitrarily 'more-than-normal' amount of interaction burden from opponents, but while I agree that tutoring out any land each time he ETBs (which should have been cast, not 'just' any ETB/flicker), especially ANY land (i.e. urborg, yavimaya, field of the dead, Cradle, Cavern of Souls, etc) instead of just basics is pretty degenerate, from what I understand (I don't have a Golos deck), any type of 'instant-win' in Golos is similar to narset, englightened master, only with less protection?
One could argue it's easier/safer to activate Golos as opposed to having to swing with narset (tho you don't have to connect), maybe?
It depends on the type/power level of one's deck (of which I agree golos is too...flexible in letting you build basically whatever you want, compared to something like Morophon or Ramos caring about tribes/spell-slinging, respectively), but I'm not sure Golos is more degenerate, than, say, Chulane, Kenrith, or Korvold.
Especially Chulane, lol.
In general the amorphous nature of commander makes it really hard to have a reasonable conversation about this stuff and makes it really frustrating any time something is banned. When a format is competitive and clearly defined, it's easy to measure out whether something is "too good" for a format. But with the commander that the RC seems to envision, where house rules govern whether something is too competitive or unfun to be playable, people are going to be having different expectations of the cards and format. Johnnys playing jank piles with golos are going to feel wronged when other degenerate stuff like Chulane is fine but golos isn't. Overall the RC's mismanagement of the format becomes more and more of a problem every year as the game gets pushed more, the format grows in popularity, WOTC designs more explicitly towards it and more wishboard-like mechanics get introduced. There really is no good argument for why companions are allowed but lessons aren't.
Yeah, one of the youtube commander channels I watch kinda touched on this - either have a banlist or don't, or at the least, try to be (more) consistent, both to make more logical 'sense', as well as more an effort to avoid all the 'sheldon bans based on his own play experience' memes.
Having a 'shadow' ban list for stuff like Armageddon only goes so far, and using rule zero, while well-intentioned, has shifted to a sort of 'excuse' over the years on the RC's part for being super slow to react/police the format, as well as highlight the differences between players in what the 'rule zero' talk pre-game actually means (such as 'my 6 power Korvold deck is actually a 9 compared to your Azorius bird tribal)
Like.... take Coalition Victory being banned but Tooth and Nail being fine - I get the 'feels bad' aspect of playing Coalition in a 5-color commander deck, both from the perspective of an opponent (you insta-lose if you're all tapped out and don't know it's coming), and for the player when it doesn't hit, especially since everyone will hold up removal/target you over anything else, especially if your commander is out after the one time you win with it.
It kinda seems like the RC's rationale for 'well you can interact with Kiki-Jiki or Triskelion from entwined Tooth-and-Nail' also applies just as much to the requirements for Coalition victory - both are going to require instant-speed removal or counterspells, and while lands are 'somewhat' harder to target 'fairly' due to the social impetus around commander, hitting most, if not all, 5-color commanders is relatively simple unless they've stocked up all-out on protection spells and/or boots/greaves.
But then again, it's also at least partially due to Wizards moving to embrace commander, and in so doing, start the power-creep/pushed cards feedback loop with, either by design or not, not holding the keys to the banlist themselves (so far).
OTOH, while I'm not a fan of companions (few, if any, of the 'restrict' clauses offset the power inherent in the actual card if properly built around, not to mention having guaranteed access to a second card, even if over-costed - one of my friends has a nasty Ayli/Lurrus lifegain-while-recurring enchantment based removal ), they're at least one-offs.
Lessons, while generic and mostly overcosted/not pushed, would just generically increase the game from 100 cards to 100 + several common cards + a few colored lessons, and some decks would be 'better off' due to the deck's strategy, comparatively speaking, considering what each of the unique 'color-associated' lessons doing different things - there'd be no reason not to run any of them.
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It's why I advocate for different commander formats even though everyone always wants to laugh the idea away. If we knew like with modern "this format threatens wins on turn 4" it would be MUCH simpler to balance. Make ACTUAL ban lists for this shit to Match the formats. Easy. Rule zero is such a cop out to balancing anything yet they still have a pointless list
I'd love the RC to spend a month just grinding edh games against randos on MTGO, where rule 0 has almost no presence. They might have a slightly different perspective.
It would be easy to fix this by doing what arena BO1 does, have a 7-card wishboard that you can use for all companion/lesson/wish/whatever type effects. So you are at most at 7 additional cards, and you have to make real trade-offs between whether you want to use wishes or companions or whatever.
Exactly. It's pretty bullshit to lean on rule 0 in anything but a tightly knit local play group. And even then, you're putting the burden of feels-bad on the players who will get outvoted on rule 0 stuff. Kitchen table players can still play whatever they want, but at least have some baseline structure to the format that is consistent.
Yup, Rule 0 exists in literally every game that was ever made, it doesn't need to be a listed fucking rule to begin with. If you don't want to properly curate the format, let wotc fucking do it.
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Sure, should be fine, though note that if you haven't had any experience with graveyard sets, the fact that you have to pay more attention to the graveyards may throw you off. Though in a Prerelease, you should run into enough less-experienced players that you won't be at a disadvantage.
The day/night cycle introduced in this set is also something you'll have to keep track of, but it's something both players will be keeping their eyes on, so it shouldn't be a problem.
Still trying to decide if I should go back to printed with this (love werewolves) or wait for Kamigawa (my favorite block) Ixalan was fun but haven't gone back since.
Innistrad sets (there's another innistrad set coming out in november) will mark the end of the year of double faced cards and I feel like going back to paper after that will be much less of a hassle. I play on arena so I don't mind, but I feel like all the DFCs and the day/night stuff is just going to be a bookkeeping nightmare in paper.
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Double-faced cards have been a part of Magic for ten years. I would hope people are used to handling flipping, shuffling, etc. by now.
I think the EDHREC podcast has the right line of thinking on the banning/unbanning. Worldfire is similar to Jokulhaups, Obliterate, Decree of Annihilation, Apocalypse and that the effect on the board is huge which rule 0 can police. Golos's effect on the board is much more subdued on the other hand. Many play groups wouldn't think about banning Golos, especially when someone has took their time and money to build it. Whether its effect on the environment (and those who don't use rule 0) is enough to ban it is debatable.
Sway of the Stars still being banned is weird. Shahrazad should stay banned though. That card is just miserable to play against.
Sway of the Stars still being banned is weird. Shahrazad should stay banned though. That card is just miserable to play against.
Golos only offers bad choices to the opponents kill it and it will just be replayed for another potentially busted land. Let it live and it might just end the game on the spot.
I have a golos deck (all colourless) and I am happy about this ban.
Also Yuriko and Derevi are awful cards for the format. Everything cheating the commandtax or work from the command zone is so dumb.
Even Zacama is pretty silly but at least that's 9 mana upfront.
And no Golos isn't the most powerful commander but it's the most popular powerful commander.
I wouldn't mind seeing Yuriko and Derevi banned too. Just don't come after my Eminence commanders, I've got 3 decks lead by those (Ur-Dragon, Edgar, Oloro)!
If I could ban any commander it might be Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh. Nothing good ever comes from that little shit.
Thanks for the response and also what to look out for.
I'm not looking to win, just have fun. But I definitely don't want to be the person to be like "I have no idea what I'm doing" but playing Magic is like riding a bike since I've played it throughout the years.
This set looks really good so far. I will say I'm not a huge fan of double faced cards, but I can live.
That's fair, there's few, if any, other commanders that auto-dig up lands to cover their own cost every time they flicker.
Eh, I'm a little biased in having a Yuriko deck (even if it is relatively 'casual' in that it runs more ninjas as opposed to extra turn spells), but if 'cheating' some value for free from the command zone is the issue, you'd kind of have to look at all the Eminence commanders too.
IIRC Eminence is acknowledged as being too potent (Arahbo and Ur-Dragon are pretty minimal, compared to Edgar/Inalla/Oloro) and I don't think I've seen another 'skip command tax' since Derevi (Yuriko was probably a 'mistake' with ninjitsu, at least for having so powerful of an ability stapled to her), so at least they're (kinda) learning, lol.
Licia and Emry are the closest I can think of, off-hand.
There's also Hogaak and Tasagur, but you'd rarely, if ever, wanna delve anything with the latter, lol.
Rograkh is a pain , yeah, both because he costs 0 and yet has so many keywords attached, and because he's almost always (in my viewings/experience) either paired with the +1 counter white partner, or the 'equip for free' white commander from Commander Legends, and just devolves into cheating 5-8+ mana equip costs and swinging for lethal commander on like....turn 4.
It's not even killing him that's the issue (well, sometimes it can be, because you have to kill him 3-4 times, as opposed to 1-2 for most commanders), but because it's both such a repetitive play pattern (it's too efficient at what it wants to do to really be anything else other than voltron/equipment), and is really effective in that it demands an immediate response or you're dead.
The thing with Golos, as I understand it, is that he's just too much value, so he fits into a lot of decks that really should prefer other commanders, EG Dragons. Dude is at least as good a Dragon tribal commander as the Ur-Dragon, and that's a little fucked.
Ok but Commander is still the 'rule 0' format, in theory. He's a commander that you can literally build any way that you want to, which is why he's the most popular. He's really good at just everything, but it's not like he's busted in the majority of those decks.
There's always going to be a most popular commander, adn even a most popular 5 color commander. Unless you're literally playing CEDH there's surely a better version of whatever deck you're playing already for most decks.
It's just a silly ban, he's intrinsicly very good but he isn't linear at all and many of his decks were actually cool. It's not like Griselbrand where you play him and unless you actively decide not to use his ability you just win.
Golos's play pattern is pretty linear, made easier by rule 0 which actively discourages you from interacting with your opponents' lands. Not sure what you find cool but, in my opinion, 5c goodstuff decks are rarely interesting. Having access to five colors does not necessarily propagate creative deckbuilding.
I played against dozens of different Golos decks. Everyone thinks they have an interesting Golos deck, but nobody did.
Mine though? Great.
Mine though? Great.
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Rules Changes, not much of note
magic.wizards.com
magic.wizards.com
Release notes
magic.wizards.com
New story
magic.wizards.com
Comprehensive Rules Changes
This is a summary of the rules changes coming to Magic with the release of Innistrad: Midnight Hunt. The most recently published rules can be found on our rules page. If there should be a discrepancy between this summary and the official rules, the official rules take precedence. New and Updated...
magic.wizards.com
Oracle Changes
Here, you'll find a list of changes being made to the official Oracle text of some Magic cards with the release of Innistrad: Midnight Hunt. Once the update is live, you can find the official text of any card on Gatherer. There are no major templating changes to any cards with the release of...
magic.wizards.com
Release notes
Innistrad: Midnight Hunt Release Notes
The Release Notes include info about the release of a new set, as well as clarifications and rulings involving that set's cards.
magic.wizards.com
New story
Episode 3: The Fall of the House of Betzold | MAGIC: THE GATHERING
Arlinn and the Gatewatch search for the Moonsilver Key, the last item the Dawnhart Coven needs to complete the Harvesttide ritual that will bring back the light.
Stuff like Maze's end decks are interesting enough. The fact that he's good and 5 color seems like a poor reason to ban a commander.
Nobody should be happy with arbitrary decisionmaking, the RC is a huge bummer as always.
Live on Arena; Trailer
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The set is up on Arena!
Very long trailer
And article about the legends
magic.wizards.com
Very long trailer
And article about the legends
Daily MTG - MTG News, Announcements, and Podcasts | Magic: The Gathering
The official source for Magic: The Gathering news, announcements, podcast, guest writers, and articles. Directly from the people who develop MTG.
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Went 7-2 in Sealed with a WB deck. I wanted to go RW, but I had the odd situation of the decent red cards caring about instants/sorceries but the only red removal being 3x Immolation. Which is normally fine, but Smoldering Egg isn't a fan. Black offered removal and way more interactions.
The decayed -> sacrifice outlet flow is pretty nice, and coven was way easier to trigger than I imagined. I crushed most of my opponents. I only had Celestus Sanctifier to care about day/night, but once that was out, I was switching between day and night regularly like a pro, until my opponent killed it.
The decayed -> sacrifice outlet flow is pretty nice, and coven was way easier to trigger than I imagined. I crushed most of my opponents. I only had Celestus Sanctifier to care about day/night, but once that was out, I was switching between day and night regularly like a pro, until my opponent killed it.
went 7-2 with a RW aggro/burn type of deck. I definitely eked out some wins i should not have at all thanks to light up the night going face.
Yeah, i feel like wotc is so scared of making good cheap playable burn in standard. There does seem to be more cards taht are allowed to hit face in these last few sets but theyre always eithe rso puny or overcosted.
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That isn't what I was complaining about, lol. Immolation is a good bit of removal, just not an instant or sorcery.
I've heard people say that the drafts are really wacky this time, and I saw it in action. First white and red were wide open, then they suddenly dried up and blue was open, then blue dried up too and green was open, then blue was open again. Then Grafted Identity was a pick 7. Managed to put together a UR deck, though I only went 2-3 off of it.
Second draft was way more straightforward. I got a RG deck with both werewolf and, oddly enough, instants and sorceries matter synergies.
Playing it right now. Autotapper screwed me out of a flashbacked Unnatural Moonrise -> attack -> Moonrager's Slash win. Left the Forest untapped.
EDIT: Went 1-2 with my RG deck. Made some mistakes, and I should have more aggressively sideboarded.
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Returning legends article
magic.wizards.com
Tokens
magic.wizards.com
And new story (summaries for this and the previous one coming)
magic.wizards.com
And note that this weekend is the Prerelease! Sign up if you haven't already, and get the Companion app on your phone for matchups.
The Returning Legends of Innistrad: Midnight Hunt
Familiar friends (and terrible horrors) return in Innistrad: Midnight Hunt!
magic.wizards.com
Tokens
Daily MTG - MTG News, Announcements, and Podcasts | Magic: The Gathering
The official source for Magic: The Gathering news, announcements, podcast, guest writers, and articles. Directly from the people who develop MTG.
And new story (summaries for this and the previous one coming)
His Eyes, All of Them | MAGIC: THE GATHERING
Reclusive astronomancer Vadrik and famed slayer Rem must stop an ancient horror ravaging a village in Kessig. But can they tolerate each other long enough to survive?
And note that this weekend is the Prerelease! Sign up if you haven't already, and get the Companion app on your phone for matchups.
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It happens during the untap step, where you can't put anything on the stack except triggered abilities. In addition, transforming is a special action that doesn't go on the stack. So no, you have to kill it on your turn.
With a card like Unnatural Moonrise, that makes it night, you can respond to the spell, but once the spell resolves, you can't respond to each transformation.
That trailer looked pretty good production-wise and captured some good flavor and feeling. Though it was silly in parts too. Like the head dude wearing a mask and sitting next to the sleeping kid's bed... it was creepy visually, but wow is that flimsy. I'm a super evil guy, but I have time to prank on the kids 😂
Anyways, I love me that Innistrad flavor! I'm looking forward to drafting this set soon.
thanks, i really gotta think about the night/day mechanic more in limited
man, draft is real weird right now. Every deck im up against is removal tribal. How are these people all able to draft every removal spell? surely that means SOMEONE isnt getting the removal spells lol. Also seems like a generally bad strategy to waste your tempo on a one for one when theres so much recursion in the format.
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(FOUR Morbid Opportunists)
Even more than previous first weekends, drafts seem to be particularly wacky.
Parents are visiting this weekend so no pre-release but we did buy a pre-release kit each. I opened a promo Arlinn and my wife opened an Arlinn and Teferi. Would have been great kits to play in-person. Def have the itch so i'll most likely play draft next weekend. Always play pre-release for sealed and skip draft release weekend but it'll be the other way around this time.
Also, these lands and showcase art cards look great in person. I'm hopeful the monster dual booster box early next year isn't hard to get my hands on as I'm planning to buy one.
Also, these lands and showcase art cards look great in person. I'm hopeful the monster dual booster box early next year isn't hard to get my hands on as I'm planning to buy one.
There's a lot of good removal in this set. Much more than normal. And all of it except for the one red spell is 4 mana or less.
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Went 1-3 for in-person Prerelease. It was a WB deck that didn't sync up with token generating and sacrifice outlets nearly as much as I would've liked. My low-cost white cards were really solid, and I had Adeline, but I probably should have went with UR, given the five-mana cards I had in it.
They need to hurry up and give us a Liesa story. She was my favorite even before she existed in the game (BW/Orzhov/Silverquill/Etc are my colors).Returning legends article
The Returning Legends of Innistrad: Midnight Hunt
Familiar friends (and terrible horrors) return in Innistrad: Midnight Hunt!
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