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TheWorthyEdge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,824
Quinn at one point used to be the highest WR champion in the game because Scouts deck was tier 1/best deck in the game.

But yeah Quin feels underwhelming sometimes even in a Scouts deck. Still an OK cars though and Scouts are pretty solid these days.

Yeah, I've been running a Quinn/Fortune deck and at most Quinn stays alive for maaaaaaybe 3 rounds usually only 2. I think she should be a 4 cost tbh. By the time she has the opportunity to level up she dies.

And yeah...Akshan is absolutely busted lol
 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
Aother OLS happened this weekend (110 entrants so a pretty decently-sized tournament) and while the meta was heavily skewed by people wanting to play new decks, I think it's still a decent enough sample size to have some idea of what the big decks going forward might be. The breakdown for top 8 was:

Sivir/Ionia: 4 (2 Zed / 2 Akshan)
Viego/Shurima: 4 (2 Nasus / 2 Solo)
Frostbite Midrange: 3
Lee Sin: 3 (2 Zoe / 1 Akshan)
Draven/Ezreal: 2
Pirates: 1
Lurk: 1
Azir/Irelia: 1
Discard: 1
Reputation: 1
Foundry: 1
Shen/J4: 1
TF/Swain: 1


As mentioned before, a LOT of people were playing new stuff rather than established decks so stuff like Viego and Akshan will potentially be a bit less represented in a couple weeks as less people bring the shiny new stuff. Akshan seems fairly legit overall and was part of the winning lineup in a deck with Sivir and Ionia along with Discard Aggro (still a threat even with the nerfed rummage, list ran a playset of Rearguard, 1 Boom Baboon, and 2 Experimenter with no Biggest Fan) and Zoe Lee. Viego wasn't in either of the two finalist decks and while he's certainly not bad I'm guessing we will probably see a bit less of him once people settle down and start playing towards the meta.

The two archetypes I feel can be solidly said to be tier 1 at this point is Sivir+Ionia and Lee. I'm expecting that Twin Disciplines will have to be changed at some point because I feel like its buff pretty much single-handedly turned Ionia from arguably the weakest region in the game to arguably the best. Past that Frostbite decks were very popular with 4 total in top 8, likely there to try and prey on the combat buff decks that are very popular right now and I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being a major player going forward. Reputation has one of the better matchups vs Zoe Lee and has overall decent matchups vs the rest of the field, I could also see that deck settling at tier 1. Azir Irelia still exists, and has another great matchup vs Zoe Lee, so once people are willing to play established decks and not new stuff it's likely going to come back as a popular bring to eat up bans. Aside from that though I think that everything else at this point doesn't have as much raw power and I think will likely make up the tier 2 lists.

Totally absent was the two big FJ+Shurima decks, Overwhelm and Thralls. Both decks were largely as powerful as they were because they countered the other tier 1 decks fairly well, but they both have even or losing matchups against all the other contending tier 1 decks. Also FTR, which I think has slipped a lot due to a lot of the big decks currently being coincidentally good vs it. Honestly I think even last patch's TLC would be struggling currently as the meta overall has become a lot more hostile towards it, although FTR losing much harder to Zoe Lee certainly doesn't help at all. Thresh Nasus has disappeared too, but I think the deck is still good and that can largely be chalked up to people playing new stuff.

Lurk seems like a solid tier 2 list, it hasn't been dominating but it's won enough tournaments that it's definitely a deck that is worth considering. Ez Draven is still reasonably popular but it's basically got a 50/50 matchup against all the big decks currently, it has very few actually favorable matchups against major players in the format and has an unfavorable matchup vs Zoe Lee. (42/58 currently on ladder, which is likely going to be worse in tournaments given that Zoe Lee is a very hard deck to play well) Aside from that it really doesn't have any decks that prey upon it that are popular currently so it's rarely going to be a dangerous pick to bring as it's borderline untargetable. Also there's like 50 different good aggro decks currently on ladder, so I'm expecting some of those to spill over into competitive play.

There's still a ton of really powerful decks out there, people are still finding all sorts of crazy stuff and so I think it's totally possible that there's some more tier 1-2 decks waiting to be found. Overall I'm expecting the meta to shake up a lot before the upcoming Seasonal, again aside from Lee and Sivir+Ionia I don't think there's any other obviously tier 1 decks competitively and I think there's a ton of very viable options that could carve out their own spot in the meta.
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Its worth noting that Lurk goes decently into Lee and Sivir despite being a tier 2 deck. So expect it to be used in tournaments.

Also yeah I see Ashe and Frostbite decks getting better with these Ionia/combat buff decks on the rise. Very well positioned. Same thing for Shen/Jarvan although less good into Lee.

There also the hyper aggro Elusive decks that run all over Lee and Sivir decks. The deck I posted above is a new sleeper deck in the meta.

Tournament wise we are saved from the fact that some of the best decks are on a single region (Ionia Shurima). No one can bring Azirelia, Sivir Zed/Akshan or Lee Akshan in one line up. It's usually going to be some form of Lee Targon, Sivir Ionia and X deck... and that line up is counterable.


Meta is still in flux and it's likely that Sivir goes down. I do think the Shurima tools are too strong, they have a Hearthstone like 1-5 curve that is very strong (Treasure Seeker, Rock Hopper, Merciless Hunter, Sivir or Sandspinner, Ruined Runner). Twin Discipline is very strong but I think the issue with Lee is more to do with Eye of thr Dragon plus Moon weapon than Twins. Having 4 man Will too. I would rather they nerf Eye in some way and Shurima package than Twin personally.

One thing I can say for sure... Control feels very bad into this meta. Lots of comboish decks that can kill you with not much of a board. Ez Karma is also strong anti-control deck.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
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Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
Eye is super strong but it's also the main card that's letting defensive Ionia decks exist at all, I think that they might be a bit hesitant on substantially nerfing it because I don't think they'll want to kill the possibility of those sorts of decks. The stream Rubin did talked about how they got into trouble nerfing cards that essentially let a region do something that they're supposed to do (like nerfing Make it Rain made BW have much worse AOE which is supposed to be one of their strengths) so I think there's a good chance Eye will be untouched. Alternatively I could see them bump it up to 3 mana and buff the stats to compensate, that would prevent it from being fished out by Crescendum which I think is the bigger issue currently. There's effectively 6 copies of her in Zoe Lee and tons of cards to protect them. The grand finals of OLS the Zoe Lee player played Eye on turn 2 into a Roiling Sands, and it was 100% the correct play because they had effectively 2 more copies in hand plus two Twin Disciplines so there was basically 0 chance of it dying anytime soon. Honestly I think that Crescendum needs a rework at some point because it's only ever going to be used for unfair stuff like that, but I doubt they'll commit to a rework of it at such short notice. All the Lee decks are playing 0-1 copies of Will, it's not really an issue IMO. (The Akshan version ran a single copy of Homecoming over Will)

Shurima is strong overall, but at the same time I think a bit of it is people wanting to play new stuff. I think that maybe a card or two could get some changes, maybe Merciless Hunter because Baccai Sandspinner also exists as a source of granting permanent Vulnerable, but at the same time I think it's a really important card to make sure back line units have counterplay as it's otherwise really hard to fight them. (And again this goes back to Disciplines being too strong as it's extremely good at stopping their backline units from being interacted with) Rock Hopper and Shaped Stone are important to make Renekton and the landmark synergy stuff in general work, Treasure Seeker helps out Reputation, Sivir is finally getting her chance to do cool stuff and Ruin Runner is an important tool vs spell or chump blocker heavy decks. I guess maybe you could lower Runner's health a bit to make it weaker vs other creature-based decks. Overall though I think most the cards are only slightly above curve and I think that if you nerfed them it would substantially weaken at least one fairly cool and unique deck which isn't great.




I did a prediction on Reddit before the Shurima expansion guessing what characters would show up in the next cycle. I got 5/7 Shuriman champs right and 1/8 of the non Shuriman champs. (I guessed Targon would get a non-Targon champ though so I was sorta right about that too) The upcoming cycle is going to be borderline impossible to guess both because we don't know what the 10th region will be and that there is rumored to be multi-region cards which might inflate the amount of champs added. That's not going to stop me from throwing out some hot takes though. To help myself a bit, I'm going to guess two champs per established region.


Demacia: Lux hasn't gotten any support at all through the Targon and Shurima cycles in addition to the two champ expansions. I think this is because they plan on adding in another champ who will help her out, so I'm guessing Sylas will join her.(Sylas 2nd region could be FJ) Second champ I'm substantially less confident in. If it isn't Senna as a SI+DEM dual region champion, I'll guess Vayne as a sort of monster hunter champ.

Noxus: This one is really tough, if dual region champs are a thing I could see Cassiopeia or Samira being NX+SHU champs, but I got burned by my favoritism towards Cass last time so I'm not going to pick her. I'm going to lock in Sion as the most likely champ because he's pretty important and I don't think the other 4 champs will get in over him. As a secondary pick I think Kled would be a good choice too as there's some neat things you could do with his gameplay.

Ionia: Ionia is a really tough region to guess for because it has the most champs of any region, so not only is there a lot to choose from but they will have to give away some of them to other regions meaning that I have to anticipate which champs they might choose for that. As a whole I think Master Yi is a pretty safe bet as he's pretty popular and I can't imagine them giving him to another region. Another super popular champ is Jhin, who I could see being added as an IO/P&Z dual region champ.

Freljord: While there's still quite a few champs from this region left, there's really not a ton of fan favorites so I can't really go off that. I think that Olaf is a pretty good pick as I think a more in-depth berserker could be cool to design. Ornn might be awesome too, but I want to go for a 2nd champ that has any chance at being dual-region, so I'll go with Gnar.

Piltover and Zaun: Again this is a tough region with a ton of really popular champs left to pick from. I'll pick Blitzcrank for my first champ because he's one of the faces of League and I think that trying to create his hook in a card game would be really funny. As a second option, Urgot came from Noxus so I could see him as a NX/P&Z champ.

Shadow Isles: I think Senna's a lock as an SI champ, the region desperately needs more champions and she fits in pretty reasonably well. For a second champ, I think it's going to be Yorick as I don't think they'll have 3 SI champs in a row all be tied into the Ruined King stuff. (Morde could work too as a NX/SI champ)

Bilgewater: If there's 2 BW champs this expansion 1 will 100% be not currently associated with Bilgewater as the region really needs more champs to equal the other regions. For actual BW champs it's just between Graves and Illaoi, I guessed last time the BW champ would be Illaoi to tie into the upcoming League RPG that I figured would be out by the end of the expansion cycle. So this time I'm going to say that the champ will be Graves so when it comes out and I'm wrong I'll at least have a game to enjoy.

Targon: Only champ directly related to Targon left is Pantheon. There's a super high chance that they'll get another off-region champ, I think there's a good chance they might get one of the Angels at some point.

Shurima: I correctly guessed that 3 of the 4 Ascended champs would make it in and Xerath would be left out before the expansion came out. This time I'm guessing Xerath will get a slot though. For dual-region champs there's a lot of possibilities. I'm going to guess Cassiopeia even though there's basically no shot because I want to believe.


Finally there's the 10th region. Post is long enough, I don't want to go into detail but I think that Ixtal will be the game's 10th region. So currently the champs that are considered to be part of Ixtal are Qiyana, Neeko, Nidalee, Zyra, Rengar, and Malphite. While Malphite is obviously already a Targon champ (who also desperately needed champs) everyone else I think is extremely likely to get in. Factoring that in, I think that Kha'Zix makes a ton of sense too as he's the big rival of Rengar. Now for champs that Ixtal can pull from other regions. Firstly, Ixtal is a jungle which means that I think that Gnar could make a ton of sense as a champ. Tangentally I could see them cramming some Vastayan champs too in, which would open up Ahri, Nami (I think they might shove her in Targon though), Wukong, Xayah, and Rakan. Ahri in particular is probably the biggest omission in the game currently, and since there's already so many champs that Ionia needs to add I could see her getting thrown here or also in Bilgewater given she's going there for the RPG. Ixtal also has a ton of elemental magic, so I could see champs like Brand or Janna make it here. (I know that Janna's a P&Z champ, they need to find some they can send elsewhere because they also have too many) Lastly, Riot's made a big deal about Qiyana having 9 sisters, so I think it's expected they'll add a new one in at some point. So I think they'll break ground and introduce one of Qiyana's sisters as the first Champ to be revealed for Runeterra first before league. (Akshan is actually not even playable in League yet, so there's a precedent)



So that is 23 champ guesses, with 8 of them being Ixtal champs which might not be the actual 10th region. If Riot follows the pattern of the previous 3 expansions there should be 17 total champs added in, but if dual regions are a thing there might be more/less than that. (If every region gets a dual-region champ there will be 5 more) If I get 7 or more right, I'll declare myself Nostradamus.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Nah, lets go to the Void.

Runeterra (as a shared universe) needs to kickstart the ongoing stories that aren't just comics and lore articles. Void is the core part of this universe and we need more grand-events like Ruination. I don't see how going to the jungle is a good direction, there isn't even enough heroes. I really liked when MTG had self-contained stories within planes, instead of the shitwatch being the least interesting heroes fighting pure evil, like some lame cartoon and plane-safari...

Things that really need more:
• Third lurker champion, making 3 deck configs instead of 1 (Void is perfect)
• Pair for Lux: either anti-mage Sylas shutting opponents magic, or Galio for boosting your own
• Nunu for Yetis
• Ahri for obvious reasons
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
yo6nkxz0t6c71.png


So this Pink + Yellow region is pretty good apparently.

Of course this isn't a real meta report since we have all sorts of jank stuff in there.


DecksNumber of MatchesWin Rate %
Shen J4482656%
Ezreal Karma422852%
Ezreal Draven395454%
Lee Sin Targon394554%
Discard321357%
GP Sejuani (Plunder)309154%
Ashe Midrange303751%
Teemo Wayfinder271556%
TF Swain266454%
Draven Fizz216956%


Based on the stats, you can play anything and jam these cards in and it will be good:

E6HrvcnWYAMVLcJ
 
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Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
Nah, lets go to the Void.

Runeterra (as a shared universe) needs to kickstart the ongoing stories that aren't just comics and lore articles. Void is the core part of this universe and we need more grand-events like Ruination. I don't see how going to the jungle is a good direction, there isn't even enough heroes. I really liked when MTG had self-contained stories within planes, instead of the shitwatch being the least interesting heroes fighting pure evil, like some lame cartoon and plane-safari...


Firstly, none of the potential 10th regions have enough champs to make up a whole region without having to borrow champs from elsewhere. Ixtal has 6 currently associated with it, Bandle City has 7, and the Void has 8. You can give Void the two Icathian champs (Zilean and Jax), but past that it gets a lot harder to give more champs. Demonic or Darkin champs could potentially work, but at the same time Targon and Shadow Isles also need champs too and they'd be as good if not a better fit there.

The other thing to consider is that once the 10th region is added into the game, Runeterra will have to have themed expansions that aren't largely about just adding a new region to the game. The two regions that aren't picked for the 10th will likely be prime candidates to have an entire expansion cycle built around them, and I think that would work much better for Bandle City and the Void than having a region dedicated to them. You could have a Void invasion expansion cycle, where we get to see all of the various Void champs either invading or defending various regions in Runeterra, and that would give you the flexibility to put these champs wherever they're needed for gameplay purposes. Ixtal on the other hand I think this would be a lot harder to get to work. Most their champs are either thematically close to Shurima or Ionia, and while Shurima could use a couple more champs Ionia already has too many.

All the champs from League will make their way to LoR at some point, so the decision of the 10th region isn't whether or not those regions/stories will be represented at all. They will in time, but the 10th region has major gameplay implications and the regions need to be somewhat balanced in terms of champions. And as far as that gameplay stuff, I think Ixtal makes the most sense.
 

Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Guys it's going to be Ixtal. When you play Wild Rift it's one of the regions that gets a specific art. Void doesn't get one.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Come on guys, don't make it difficult, just say Void.

Kog Mawz is in the void, the void puppy is too precious.
Nidalee is in the jungle, hideous abortion of the champion.

But if they do make jungle expansion, we could literally have jungle bushes concealing what is on the board. Jungle units who enter the board concealed, making only the slot visible but not who is there, coupled with the cards like swaps to further make opponents to second-guess what kind of allies are in the jungle, and at which bushes they hide. Mana would betray whether you summon a big or small unit, but units could re-cloak or generate swap cards upon entering, or literally scramble repositioning jungle allies randomly, making it impossible to know and so good to watch as a spectator. Another jungle unit could cloak units on attack, where the opponent has to block blind... The perfect flavor into mechanic transformation!

This is where a game like MTG shits itself, but a pure digital game can pull this off. Now I really want a jungle expansion.
 
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mtlspider

Member
Oct 26, 2017
954
I just faced one of the infinite decks in ranked play.

Just set my game to autopass enabled and left the game running for the next 30minutes; gotta let the opponent earn his win.

Can't wait for this to get sorted out.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Have they said anything about rebalancing Lab of Legends yet because it's still pretty annoying how Heroic/Legendary is basically just you need to roll a broken combo or you just lose

I love the mode but the more expensive champs are just a nightmare to play
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
Have they said anything about rebalancing Lab of Legends yet because it's still pretty annoying how Heroic/Legendary is basically just you need to roll a broken combo or you just lose

I love the mode but the more expensive champs are just a nightmare to play

Maybe they spread out a lil too thin with so many modes.

• Main game just got rebalanced, and then Ruinated with infinite combos and two pretty strong champions
• URF needs a banned-card list because it is insanely unfun when you get buried in ice or descended, though it is funny to drop the spell yourself and emote :)
• 2vs2 mode still in iteration phase
• Expeditions need quite a bit of work... as usual
• Lab of Legends, whatever its problems are
• There probably are even more modes joining LABS in the future

I would be in-favor of chopping something off, but at this point, what? They are all so different that you are bound to disappoint a portion of the playerbase reducing game modes.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,036
Have they said anything about rebalancing Lab of Legends yet because it's still pretty annoying how Heroic/Legendary is basically just you need to roll a broken combo or you just lose

I love the mode but the more expensive champs are just a nightmare to play
The really bizarre thing about LoL is that it's simultaneously super controlled (specific starting decks, pretty strict limitation to other cards you can get etc) and still an unbalanced mess. Like pick one. Let me have fun with whatever or make a well-balanced controlled experience.

And for the love of jebus just let me pick the starting power.
 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
A fairly sizable (77 entrants) BR Tournament is going on with some interesting results, it's actually kinda over the place with only 3 of the decks having more than one representation in the top cut. They are as follows:

Azir Irelia 4
Zoe Lee 3
GP Sej Plunder 3
Draven Ez 1
TF GP 1
Thresh Viego Ionia 1
Akshan Sivir Ionia 1
Sivir TF 1
Scouts 1
Pirates 1
Thresh Nasus 1
Overwhelm 1
Ez Karma 1
Thralls 1
Lurk 1
LB Ashe 1
Shen Jarvan 1



A bit less Sivir Ionia than expected, but really I think a ton of that can be chalked up to it sharing the same region combo as Azir Irelia, which at this point is still in all likelihood the best bring in the game since it still has great matchups against fairly popular decks, most notably Zoe Lee.

Plunder popping off is probably the most surprising outcome here, the list is essentially a BW Allegiance deck splashing 3 copies of Sej and 1 of Three Sisters. The 3 lists are card for card almost the exact same, but one of them ran Riptide as their 8 drop finisher and 2 played The Dreadway. Here's a link to one of the lists: https://lor.mobalytics.gg/decks/c3sakf63kvdrniv80un0 (have deck set to private, will fix in a sec)


For underperformers, both of the new champs are less popular than the weekend tourney. At this point I think that it looks like the value that Targon provides to the Lee deck is winning over the Akshan Shurima plan. Also mentioned before but the combination of spell shields, super efficient protection spells, and counters are fairly heavily oppressing most control gameplans, with just a single Ez Karma representing the archetype. Also absent are most of the big all-in aggro decks that are popping up on ladder, which isn't surprising as aggro has historically done much worse in tournaments than on ladder. This format is so far being very much dominated by slow burn, midrange, and the regions of Ionia and Shurima.

I totaled up the representation of each region in the top 8, which I think shows a pretty strong trend:
IO 11
SHU 11
BW 8
FJ 6
NOX 4
TAR 3
P&Z 2
SI 2
DEM 2

At this point I think it's reasonably safe to say that Targon was overnerfed during the last balance patch, the only remotely viable Targon deck currently is Zoe Lee. Targon has always been a problematic region with it generally being too good at too many different things, but now it's just sorta average at everything and I think that at this point outside of the options it specifically brings to Zoe Lee there's not a ton of great things bringing people into the region. On paper the Fangs, Serpent, and Starshaping nerfs make sense, (Also the Stalking Shadows nerf which hurts Nightfall) but all 3 at the same time I think was a bit overkill.

P&Z is at this point hurting a bit by the fact that the last 2 new archetypes added have mostly flopped. (Ballistic Bot is good and some people ran Viktor in Rubin Zoo but aside from that they haven't got much in a long time outside of the synergies that they got with TF) P&Z I think might have the least amount of flexibility in their core gameplan right now of all the regions, there's the discard package, burn, and Ezreal. And a lot of the P&Z decks are just running all 3. Given this I can't help but be a bit disappointed with the buffs that the region got last patch because while Heimer I think was a more reasonable change, (and again control is bad right now) Jae and Midenstokke Henchman feel like token buffs that potentially took the place of buffing some other more healthy archetypes.


It's worth mentioning that this is just one tournament and one that didn't have a crazy amount of entrants either, so I don't want to draw TOO many conclusions. (I think SI is still a pretty strong region and it's lesser representation can in large part be chalked up to control being much weaker currently) It's pretty crazy to see so many archetypes represented in general though, even if it's still early meta and people are still probably trying out new stuff.


EDIT: Winner was running Thresh Nasus, Overwhelm, and Pirate Burn. It's pretty funny that despite all the changes to the meta the winning lineup is just playing 2-3 month old decks lol. I'm guessing that Overwhelm has decent matchups vs all the BW slow burn decks that were running rampant. (There were 4 in top 8 if you count Plunder) 2nd place was running Draven Ez, TF GP + Nox, (Dreadway+GP and maybe some Farrons seems to have replaced Riptide+Leviathan and Swain) and Zoe Lee.
 
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Dahbomb

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,665
Plunder Sejuani if it levels up its champions is good into Sivir. Problem is that they often get you in before your Champs get rolling. It seems like on paper it should be a good match up but it often isn't the case.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
One champ in the vault, another got from the Expedition. Even though I lost the 7th game...

Last week was 2 champs, same for this one. Progress!

Though I will echo that we got a bit of the stupid power-creep. You know the 3/2 Spider who needs a dead ally to come into play as 4/3 Fearsome? Why is the fucking Merciless coming as 4/3 Fearsome as the worst case scenario, and +Assassination as the best?
 
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Icarus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
633
One champ in the vault, another got from the Expedition. Even though I lost the 7th game...

Last week was 2 champs, same for this one. Progress!

Though I will echo that we got a bit of the stupid power-creep. You know the 3/2 Spider who needs a dead ally to come into play as 4/3 Fearsome? Why is the fucking Merciless coming as 4/3 Fearsome as the worst case scenario, and +Assassination as the best?
Merciless Hunter is a known outlier of being a busted 3 drop, Riot deliberately made it so to boost the play rate of Shurima since it was really low for a newly launched region.
 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
Merciless Hunter is a known outlier of being a busted 3 drop, Riot deliberately made it so to boost the play rate of Shurima since it was really low for a newly launched region.

That's not how the game's development works. Cards are designed months in advance of their release, I can't imagine that they would be changing card numbers a couple weeks before they're supposed to be released as that would potentially have massive ramifications both in terms of the current meta as well as the next sets that are designed to work with the cards that were previously designed. I'm sure they knew the card was super strong, but felt that it would be a good way to establish that Shurima is good at granting things Vulnerable. Riot often uses intentionally overtuned cards as a way to establish a region's strengths, they just decided to have Merciless Hunter drop in the 2nd expansion rather than the first so it happened to break down that it came out after Shurima was weak during the first set. (Which is expected because the region was missing a major chunk of its cards)


To give you an idea of how far out they plan sets, the whole Shurima cycle was largely designed before they had decided to split their major expansions into 3 set chunks, which was done before the first Targon expansion was even released so that decision happened somewhere around a year ago. They have said that the next cycle will be the first one they've done that's designed from the ground up to be split into 3 chunks, meaning that the Targon and Shurima cycles were originally designed to be one big set and had to be later split up into separate sets later.
 
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Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,036
Though I will echo that we got a bit of the stupid power-creep. You know the 3/2 Spider who needs a dead ally to come into play as 4/3 Fearsome? Why is the fucking Merciless coming as 4/3 Fearsome as the worst case scenario, and +Assassination as the best?
In all fairness different regions are supposed to have different strengths so they can't just be compared 1:1. Also spider is a pretty valuable tag. Though Fearsome is more of a SI thing than a Shurima thing. I'm fairly certain they'll just remove the Fearsome tag from Hunter at some point.
 

Icarus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
633
That's not how the game's development works. Cards are designed months in advance of their release, I can't imagine that they would be changing card numbers a couple weeks before they're supposed to be released as that would potentially have massive ramifications both in terms of the current meta as well as the next sets that are designed to work with the cards that were previously designed. I'm sure they knew the card was super strong, but felt that it would be a good way to establish that Shurima is good at granting things Vulnerable. Riot often uses intentionally overtuned cards as a way to establish a region's strengths, they just decided to have Merciless Hunter drop in the 2nd expansion rather than the first so it happened to break down that it came out after Shurima was weak during the first set. (Which is expected because the region was missing a major chunk of its cards)


To give you an idea of how far out they plan sets, the whole Shurima cycle was largely designed before they had decided to split their major expansions into 3 set chunks, which was done before the first Targon expansion was even released so that decision happened somewhere around a year ago. They have said that the next cycle will be the first one they've done that's designed from the ground up to be split into 3 chunks, meaning that the Targon and Shurima cycles were originally designed to be one big set and had to be later split up into separate sets later.
Changing a cards stats from say a 3/2 which grants vulnerable to a 4/3 which grants vulnerable would not be considered a difficult task in the slightest. The fact is Shurima when it first launched did not make a big impact. Shurima did not land anywhere near as good as Targon, the broken down sets aside Targon landed and became the defacto #1 region, Shurima with the exception of Thresh/Nasus was not featured in any high tier decks.

Targon also launched in segments and it went straight to the top meta played decks when the first part came out, Shurima did not. As I said previously Riot knowingly released Merciless Hunter as 4/3 granting vulnerable being one of the strongest 3 drop followers in the game to boost up the Shurima region in streams/tournaments/events etc.

Lastly, I am well aware of how Riot planned Targon and Shurima to be initially be a full blown release but then opted for the breakdown and staggered region launches but that doesn't deter from my original statement which is they knowingly made Merciless Hunter broken to improve the play rate of Shurima. You could even do a poll and ask the LOR community which 3 drop follower is broken/need of a nerf and Merciless Hunter would come out at top.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
6/7/7

Why cant I play Expeditions more every week... (and win rewards)

I think there are like 5-10 really bad 3-drops. This spider among them. Also Marksman, Crushbot, Stellacorn. Units that are objectively inferior with stats, and could use a buff.
 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
Changing a cards stats from say a 3/2 which grants vulnerable to a 4/3 which grants vulnerable would not be considered a difficult task in the slightest. The fact is Shurima when it first launched did not make a big impact. Shurima did not land anywhere near as good as Targon, the broken down sets aside Targon landed and became the defacto #1 region, Shurima with the exception of Thresh/Nasus was not featured in any high tier decks.

Targon also launched in segments and it went straight to the top meta played decks when the first part came out, Shurima did not. As I said previously Riot knowingly released Merciless Hunter as 4/3 granting vulnerable being one of the strongest 3 drop followers in the game to boost up the Shurima region in streams/tournaments/events etc.

Lastly, I am well aware of how Riot planned Targon and Shurima to be initially be a full blown release but then opted for the breakdown and staggered region launches but that doesn't deter from my original statement which is they knowingly made Merciless Hunter broken to improve the play rate of Shurima. You could even do a poll and ask the LOR community which 3 drop follower is broken/need of a nerf and Merciless Hunter would come out at top.

The issue is not how hard or easy it would be to change a number on a card, the issue is that the entire set is designed with the cards that exist, so changing card numbers at the last minute could have a massive impact on the region's balance and I doubt they'd do it outside of extreme circumstances like knowing that something is going to be completely broken if it's not pre-emptively nerfed. IMO just based off how Renekton felt pre Hunter and post-Hunter it's pretty obvious to me that he was designed around Hunter being a strong 3 drop that granted Vulnerable because his whole stat gaining gimmick felt pretty damn underwhelming before Hunter was released. Shurima as a whole feels like a more fleshed out and established region post-hunter than it did before, which to me is a strong indicator that it was intended to be very strong.

Also the idea that the only reason why they would release a 3 drop as strong as Merciless Hunter was specifically as a last ditch effort to buff up Shurima doesn't track. Firstly, Shurima being underpowered when only having access to a little over half their cards is wholly expected. Targon being OP from the first expansion is realistically an exception unless they are intentionally pushing new sets to the moon in terms of power. (They're obviously pushing them a bit because new regions/cards are more exciting when they're actually good but I'd say that Targon's strength was obviously overkill for most of that cycle) Secondly, they have printed more busted cards before without the context of it being released in a region that needed help. Grizzled Ranger/Badgerbear were WAY more obviously overtuned than Hunter is, and Demacia was doing just fine before that release. Also Shaped Stone and Ruin Runner were set 1 cards so they were printing overtuned Shurima cards even before they had data that it wasn't that powerful.

Unless you have access to some sort of statement by Riot saying that they did this, it seems like you're making a ton of assumptions about how Riot does things that contradict what they have said that they do and isn't really supported by how they've designed and balanced cards previously.
 

Dahbomb

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think they messed up when they didn't release Mercless Hunter with Renekton. That way it would have been nerfed by now.
 

TheWorthyEdge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,824
How viable is Renekton? I'm trying to make a deck with him as the centerpiece. I have Ren/Jarvan right now as Demacia seems to fit pretty well with him but it's just not clicking whenever Ren's on the board.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
I want Ascended to be a viable thing. During pre-launch, it seemed like one of the most important features of the expansion, but it is an unplayable meme :(

Watching a Sivir Ionia deck in the tournament. A deck full of spellshit units, with counterspells, combat tricks and stuns. How unfun can this shit be?
 

Dahbomb

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Oct 25, 2017
13,665
How viable is Renekton? I'm trying to make a deck with him as the centerpiece. I have Ren/Jarvan right now as Demacia seems to fit pretty well with him but it's just not clicking whenever Ren's on the board.
Renekton is good in Freljord Overwhelm. Generally you don't want to go ALL IN on Renekton but he is a good pay off for Vulnerable triggers in your deck and is a solid Overwhelm unit.

 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
Man, after seeing all the issues with the League Ruination event it makes me really appreciate all the lore in Runeterra even more. The cards in the event do a great job at giving us a glimpse of how this world-changing event is affecting many of the normal people and creatures that inhabit the world, something that's desperately missing from League's VN.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
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Oct 25, 2017
13,513
The big issues with the league VN come from it being done by the skin team, IMO. And not even in a "oh they're just trying to sell the skins" kind of way; if your job has been to write little character excerpts making one character look cool and describe the world in a broad strokes kind of way, with an exclusive focus on people who're already part of a theme... and then you get told to write a 100k world story... you're not going to just suddenly shake that off.
 

Sylvee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
The big issues with the league VN come from it being done by the skin team, IMO. And not even in a "oh they're just trying to sell the skins" kind of way; if your job has been to write little character excerpts making one character look cool and describe the world in a broad strokes kind of way, with an exclusive focus on people who're already part of a theme... and then you get told to write a 100k world story... you're not going to just suddenly shake that off.

That's apparently not accurate, there were several general lore people working on the PC VN. Apparently LoR was on their own though which would potentially explain why the story through the cards is much better

 
OP
OP
jon bones

jon bones

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Oct 25, 2017
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i will say the absolute dumbest thing about this event is changing Thresh in Wild Rift to be more China-friendly

really puts a bad taste in my mouth with how obvious it is
 

Deleted member 28523

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I mean they've been really awful at balancing Shurima. Shaped Stone, Ruin Runner, Merciless Hunter are all way overtuned. And they have been since they've been released.
 

ZeroX

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Oct 25, 2017
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Speed Force
I think Shaped Stone is fine, it has a deck building cost of like six cards, although granted things like Akshan make it easier to hit but I actually really like the design

but yeah Merciless and Ruin Runner gotta get hit, as satisfying as Ruin Runner combo kills are
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,036
Shaped Stone could say "played" since it's trivial to spawn landmarks.

How the hell do half of all players have Shyvana (and often Viego) in expeditions? Is everyone rerolling until they get her? Even if the dragon archetype is boosted due to the event, that wouldn't even begin to explain how much I face her.
 

TheWorthyEdge

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Oct 25, 2017
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This Taric/Jarvan deck from Mogwai has been putting in the work. It's creeping up to be one of my favorite decks, right behind Kindred/Nasus.
 

Deleted member 28523

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I think Shaped Stone is fine, it has a deck building cost of like six cards, although granted things like Akshan make it easier to hit but I actually really like the design

but yeah Merciless and Ruin Runner gotta get hit, as satisfying as Ruin Runner combo kills are

I disagree. Noxus is suppose to be the aggressive, buffy region and Elixer of Wrath is worse for some reason. Brother's Bond is give 2 allies +2 attack but costs 2 mana. The big one is Sharpened Resolve is give an ally 3/2 for a round but costs 3 mana. I guess you don't need to summon a landmark which really justifies the 2 more mana? 4 stats at burst speed for 1 mana is too much powercreep imo. There is nothing else in the game like it. They clearly want it to be the mystic shot, make it rain, etc spell of Shurima but I think it's too much at the moment.
 

Deleted member 28523

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Also really hope we get a hotfix this week for the viego/freeze bug.

also the fact that they've gotten rid of killing your units fizzling spells. so many new spells just ignore that mechanic for some reason. There is not really a logical consistency.
 
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ZeroX

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Oct 25, 2017
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I disagree. Noxus is suppose to be the aggressive, buffy region and Elixer of Wrath is worse for some reason. Brother's Bond is give 2 allies +2 attack but costs 2 mana. The big one is Sharpened Resolve is give an ally 3/2 for a round but costs 3 mana. I guess you don't need to summon a landmark which really justifies the 2 more mana? 4 stats at burst speed for 1 mana is too much powercreep imo. There is nothing else in the game like it. They clearly want it to be the mystic shot, make it rain, etc spell of Shurima but I think it's too much at the moment.
Elixir of Wrath has no deckbuilding cost and can come down in the first few turns. Brother's Bond is a permanent buff (hence it works well in elusives). Sharpened Resolve has always sucked, that's more the fault of that card than Shaped Stone. I mean yeah Shaped Stone is better than those, but I'm fine with core spells, especially one that has a specific tell, you'll always know when your opponent has hit the +3/+1 criteria (outside of Unraveled Earth).
 

Sylvee

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Oct 25, 2017
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also the fact that they've gotten rid of killing your units fizzling spells. so many new spells just ignore that mechanic for some reason. There is not really a logical consistency.

Spells that either target one creature (most burn/kill spells) or have a secondary effect that is conditional on the spell resolving (Drain, Vile Feast is specifically worded to work this way) fizzle when the target(s) become invalid. Spells that have another effect that is not conditional on the effect resolving (Statikk Shock, Decisive Maneuver) aren't impacted by the target becoming invalid. The templating is pretty consistent.

Also as someone who played back when SI was by far the best region in the game and Augmented Experimenter's skill fizzled if its damage target became invalid, that stuff being extremely widespread for all targeted effects is really not healthy for the game. It's a colossal buff to Glimpse Beyond (which is already an insanely good card) and makes those sort of effects even more swingy as they are borderline useless vs any deck that can reliably kill their own units in response. It's also REALLY lame to burn through all your cards in prep for Experimenter or throw a ton of 3 cost cards in your deck to power up Tri-Beam only for all that hard work to be countered by a 2 mana spell that every SI deck already wanted to play. I think it's much better for them to do it in a case-by-case basis like they're doing it now.



Noxus' main thing is that they have a bunch of different offensive tools to use such as attack buffs, Overwhelm, stun, and burn. They're not really the best at any of these things, but what makes them strong is that they have access to all of them and they're pretty reasonable at all of them. They shouldn't have the best combat tricks in the game.