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Kotaku Article "Nintendo's Lawyers Need To Chill"

regenhuber

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,232
As a current Switch owner and huge fan of Nintendo it has always baffled me how a company that brings so much joy & creativity to the world, can be so corporate, ugly and restrictive when it comes to fan games.

From the article: https://kotaku.com/nintendos-lawyers-need-to-chill-1835858130

Here's a taste of where we're at in 2019: Every single time Kotaku writes about a fan game involving Nintendo characters, the first comments are never about the ambition or quality of the project. They're about a fear of Nintendo's lawyers.

It's almost a meme at this point, so predictable and tragic has the process become. The world finds out about a cool fan game someone (or a team) has made, the world gets ready to enjoy it, Nintendo's lawyers step in, they get it taken down, and we don't end up getting to enjoy it after all. Generally, Nintendo doesn't do anything about fan art, fan remixes of music, or other such projects. But for whatever reason, it draws a hard line at fan games.

[.....]

Nintendo needs to read the room here and realise there's a big difference between a pile of pirated 3DS cartridges at a market stall and a loving, non-commercial Pokémon game made by fans, for fans. These games are tribute, not competition. Mario Battle Royale, the 100-player take on Super Mario Bros.that had to change its name last week to DMCA Royale in honour of Nintendo's legal threats, was never going to cannabalize sales of Super Mario Maker 2. Likewise, Breath of the NES, another recent and promising fan project that was turning Breath of the Wild into a retro top-down Zelda game, was never going to stop a Nintendo fan from preordering Link's Awakening.
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Gotta agree with the Kotaku author here. What's ERAs take on that?
 
RockmanBN

RockmanBN

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It's not like Sonic fan games are stopping the sales of new Sonic games.

Lack of marketing and bad quality is though.
 

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Raijinto

Raijinto

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TBF one of the more popular fan made Nintendo games (AM2R), was literally what Nintendo were in the process of doing themselves (MSR) when their lawyers showed 'no chill' I guess so you never know really. It's disingenuous I feel to act like that never happened.

Edit: and boy did people like bringing up how AM2R was the best 'Nintendo game' released that year lol so yeah I don't get why that game is ignored here.
 
Icarus

Icarus

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Oct 26, 2017
633
It's their IP at the end of the day, they can behave and act as they like in my opinion.

Anyone who is going to devout time to make something should seek the owners permission first, if you already think they're going to say no than honestly why bother?

Don't get me wrong it's amazing that people want to go to such lengths with their IPs but you can't act all pissed off when they come hunting for you with their lawyers and what not if you haven't been respectful enough to get their permission.
 

Deleted member 2254

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Can't say I disagree. I absolutely understand why they want to shoot down certain fan projects, but is there really a harm in the brand or potential revenue loss if somebody makes a random Doom mod with Mario characters or an Atari demake (as long as they are free, of course)? It's not like these projects would ever happen at Nintendo so they're not stealing money, and nobody will download those fan-made projects and then not buy an official Nintendo game again because they clearly suck.
 
Keldroc

Keldroc

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Oct 27, 2017
12,020
regenhuber said:
As a current Switch owner and huge fan of Nintendo it has always baffled me how a company that brings so much joy & creativity to the world, can be so corporate, ugly and restrictive when it comes to fan games.
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Because there are few companies in this industry more corporate than Nintendo. They project a friendly public face but they are not anyone's friend but their own. That's true of all AAA publishers, of course, but Nintendo has always been the strictest about almost everything, from character use to preview code to interview content. This aspect of their corporate culture is probably in part responsible for the high quality of their games, but it also makes them pretty tough to deal with as an outside entity.

I have a very hard time seeing this change any time soon, as much as I agree with Kotaku's take on it. It's just not in Nintendo's character as a corporate entity and they have no interest in changing that.
 
Hayama Akito

Hayama Akito

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Oct 25, 2017
1,326
The most incredible thing about this is that now Nintendo is a much less strict company with their copyright stuff. In the Howard Lincoln era all those fan games would not only be prohibited but also the creators would be probably in jail. He was such an asshole.
 
nikos

nikos

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Oct 27, 2017
2,998
New York, NY
In the end, it's their property. People who partake in extensive projects involving any Nintendo IP should know that they're most likely going to get hit with a C&D by now.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

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Oct 25, 2017
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"Nintendo doesn't do anything about fan art, fan remixes of music, or other such projects. But for whatever reason, it draws a hard line at fan games."

'Whatever reason' lol. gotta love being deliberately specious. Nintendo makes games. Music and merch is a very small side business. If you want to play Mario, Zelda you need to buy a Nintendo console and buy their games, that's literally what they do. All the counter examples are always for companies who are not in the business to sell you hardware and an ecosystem. Microsoft has no-fee PC so PC is fine for them.

"These games are tribute, not competition."

They're both, and ultimately using stolen brands specifically to promote themselves.

Make Legend of Belda, fan coders, it's really that simple.
 
Rosebud

Rosebud

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Apr 16, 2018
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Hayama Akito said:
The most incredible thing about this is that now Nintendo is a much less strict company with their copyright stuff. In the Howard Lincoln era all those fan games would not only be prohibited but also the creators would be probably in jail. He was such an asshole.
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"And let me say that for the record, I want to state that Night Trap will never appear on a Nintendo system."
 
Sankara

Sankara

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It always amazes me how "family-friendly" Nintendo want to market themselves as, yet they might be the most conservative company out there.
 

Wiped

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2,096
Hard disagree. Nobody has the right to share fake games using Nintendo's IP. In the same way I cant sell bootleg Adidas t shirts and expect not to get a cease and desist, people can't expect to release something called Pokemon or Mario online and think Nintendo, whose entire business is selling games for those IP, won't step in.

Sony and MS would be just as litigious if people were making fan God of War games or fan Halos.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

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Oct 25, 2017
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Wiped said:
Hard disagree. Nobody has the right to share fake games using Nintendo's IP. In the same way I cant sell bootleg Adidas t shirts and expect not to get a cease and desist, people can't expect to release something called Pokemon or Mario online and think Nintendo, whose entire business is selling games for those IP, won't step in.

Sony and MS would be just as litigious if people were making fan God of War games or fan Halos.
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MS is allowing a fan Halo, but fan Halos would at least be on PC (like the one in the article) so promotes the Microsoft OS environment. Of course all the Nintendo fan games are PC or via piracy devices, not their ecosystem.
 
CrazyAndy

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Wiped said:
Hard disagree. Nobody has the right to share fake games using Nintendo's IP. In the same way I cant sell bootleg Adidas t shirts and expect not to get a cease and desist, people can't expect to release something called Pokemon or Mario online and think Nintendo, whose entire business is selling games for those IP, won't step in.

Sony and MS would be just as litigious if people were making fan God of War games or fan Halos.
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But most of these projects are not even being sold. As long as they are not made for profit Nintendo should chill the fuck out. Nintendo just sucks in this regard.
 
evilmonkey

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Iwata once talked in detail about fan works. He mentioned that while fan art, movies, remixes, and the like were using Nintendo properties, they're ultimately created due to affection for Nintendo products and that's why Nintendo generally has no problem with them.

However, when fans decide to make games (works in the very same medium), which not only infringe copyright but also inevitably compete with Nintendo's own offerings, it becomes a no-brainer for them to put an end to it.
 
Hero of Legend

Hero of Legend

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Oct 26, 2017
13,653
D.Lo said:
"Nintendo doesn't do anything about fan art, fan remixes of music, or other such projects. But for whatever reason, it draws a hard line at fan games."

'Whatever reason' lol. gotta love being deliberately specious. Nintendo makes games. Music and merch is a very small side business. If you want to play Mario, Zelda you need to buy a Nintendo console and buy their games, that's literally what they do. All the counter examples are always for companies who are not in the business to sell you hardware and an ecosystem. Microsoft has no-fee PC so PC is fine for them.

"These games are tribute, not competition."

They're both, and ultimately using stolen brands specifically to promote themselves.

Make Legend of Belda, fan coders, it's really that simple.
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Pretty much. Like it or not, fan games can legit become free alternatives to the official thing, even crappy demakes on a calculator could lure a potential customer away from buying Super Mario Bros. on the virtual console (or now via Switch Online).

And folks COULD just make their own thing, but IMO they won't because it won't get even a fraction of the attention.

Honestly, just make showcases no-one can play. Pretty sure Nintendo is a-okay with videos and whatnot showing cool stuff involving their characters, and MAYBE mods to existing games where you rip your own ROM to patch in said mod, but only if you keep the ROM to yourself, that sort of thing.

Not everyone is Sega, and frankly, they only are cool with Sonic fan games because... you know. If Sonic was like Mario in quality and sales, you'd better believe Sega would act the same as Nintendo IMO.
 
EarthPainting

EarthPainting

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Oct 26, 2017
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I agree, but I suppose that's pretty for me to say, as someone without a wealth of big recognisable brands to my name. We've seen this happen often enough that I don't think it's worth creating Nintendo fangames at this point. I get that exposure is a hard-to-come-by commodity in every field of art, and riding on the coattails of big names helps immensely, but it always feels like a waste when you put all that time into something that will surely turn into a Cease and Desist order.

Websites like Kotaku also have an odd role in this story. They are tend to be the ones that signal boost fanprojects like this, and the exposure paints targets on these fan projects. I suspect fan games would have an easier time existing in the margins when there's no spotlight on them.
 
Tokyo_Funk

Tokyo_Funk

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Dec 10, 2018
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The guy who made it could have just made something new with a new character, but nope straight to an existing I.P.

I wonder if Kotaku would take down another site that also calls itself Kotaku and uses their brand assets?
 
massoluk

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Oct 25, 2017
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CrazyAndy said:
But most of these projects are not even being sold. As long as they are not made for profit Nintendo should chill the fuck out. Nintendo just sucks in this regard.
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Metroid 2 case kinda swayed me a bit. It's not for profit, but Nintendo clearly had the remake planned. Even the Mario Royale thing kinda encroached on Mario Maker 2 multiplayer a bit.

I'll be frank, a lot of this project seemed easily circumventable with just replacing the Nintendo characters
 
Mare

Mare

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1) I do blame Kotaku and co, I can not prove that they making articles about fan projects is what directs the lawyers were to attack, but is not un-related that is after this articles that said projects get hit with CnDs

2) Whether you like it or not, as a company,Nintendo has 100% control over their IPs, they are obviously not hatting the fans cause almost any other media of fan creations gets a pass, but if they decided that making Makes on the likes of their own sharing names and or assets, I mean, its their only source of revenue, so logically they will counter those.

3) at This point, literally everyone knows nintendo MO regarding Fan games. so if even knowing that, you still decide to make one, you are either, trying to capitalize on the popularity of the brand for your fan game, or testing god and your luck
 
Rosebud

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Wiped said:
Hard disagree. Nobody has the right to share fake games using Nintendo's IP. In the same way I cant sell bootleg Adidas t shirts and expect not to get a cease and desist, people can't expect to release something called Pokemon or Mario online and think Nintendo, whose entire business is selling games for those IP, won't step in.

Sony and MS would be just as litigious if people were making fan God of War games or fan Halos.
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There are a few Pokemon browser games, I used to play one a lot as a kid. But Mario Royale lasted 2 days.

Maybe it's a Pokemon Company thing (weird, because they don't even like youtube videos)
 
Resilient

Resilient

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Oct 25, 2017
1,418
The fan works would ultimately struggle to stand on their own without the Nintendo brand name attached to it. That's not to say that the games are bad, but rather that their reach is severely limited until they slap Pokemon on it. Like a poster above said, they're using Nintendo's branding to promote their game. It's not just for "some reason" like the article suggests. Using Nintendo IPs to promote your game that doesn't have any affiliation with Nintendo is illegal.
 
OP
OP
regenhuber

regenhuber

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Nov 4, 2017
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Keldroc said:
I have a very hard time seeing this change any time soon, as much as I agree with Kotaku's take on it. It's just not in Nintendo's character as a corporate entity and they have no interest in changing that.
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That's where I'm at as well. On a intellectual level, I completely understand what Nintendo (and many other companies) are doing and why they are doing it. Like you said, the IPs (Mario & co.) are Nintendo's #1 breadwinners and I would also protect them at all cost.
That said, there just has to be some wiggle room for them to turn a blind eye to a couple of fan projects per year.
Shutting EVERYTHING down in 2019 is just a bad look.
In fashion, collaborations of massive brands with "small potato" designers/labels are pretty common these days. Just think of the Pigeon Dunk Nike AF 1s.

Would be pretty neat if Nintendo could get something like that going. Maybe they take the Mario Battle Royale game under their wings and create a ID@Nintendo program or something.
 
Hero of Legend

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Oct 26, 2017
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Rosebud said:
There are a few Pokemon browser games, I used to play one a lot as a kid. But Mario Royale lasted 2 days.

Maybe it's a Pokemon Company thing (weird, because they don't even like youtube videos)
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I think browser games like the late great Pokemon Crater were so early in the "baby" period of the Internet that Nintendo/TPC didn't notice or care? If that came up today, they'd step in.
 

Deleted member 8791

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At the end of the day, fans have the options to get the game out: just need to complete it hush-hush and release it and it's out there forever. I've been on the recieving end of a team that got hit by a corporate takedown and the game was already out there and anyone wanting to play it still can.
 

Vector

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Feb 28, 2018
6,685
I know several people who have been trying to make Nintendo fangames but stopped out of fear of getting a c&d.

Nintendo needs to understand that fangames that are free, non-profit and are clearly fan projects and not endorsed in any way by N are good for their IP and can't possibly be harmful.
 
kikuchiyo

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Nov 9, 2017
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Yeah I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding about how copyright - particularly in the US and Japan works. I'm writing from my phone but given the way copyright works in both countries companies can be more or less conservative in how they approach it (and how much risk they thereby take on) and being conservative about risk tolerance isn't an illegitimate stance.

I'm also seeing people commenting that "Nintendo isn't your friend." No shit, it's a company not a puppy.
 
jts

jts

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Oct 26, 2017
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Yo, laws shouldn't be observed. IPs shouldn't be protected. It's just a game bro! Way to shit on your fans, Nintendo! Look at all these corporate apologizers. Stick it to the man!

/s
 
oni-link

oni-link

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The number of Nintendo fans who skipped BOTW because they were playing Zelda fan games must be between 0-1

You could maybe make this case for AM2R, but that's pretty much it
 
Oregano

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It's kind of a fair cop situation. It would be nice to let it slide but they're not exactly in the wrong for stopping it.

Also the whole "non-commercial" aspect of stuff is a blurry as hell line in the age of Patreon's and what are nominally donations.
 
Dewin

Dewin

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Now you think Nintendo need to chill out? Nintendo has been terrible for a long time. The whole youtube demonetization thing really was the worst.
 
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