Kojima: Death Stranding Had Stronger Criticism in the US, Possibly Because It Flies Above Shooters

Wamb0wneD · Nov 10, 2019

Nome said:
It's real, I took the pic myself at the pop-up gallery last Friday. You can read about the event here:

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2019/11/06/youre-invited-the-art-of-death-stranding-gallery-event/

What that blog doesn't tell you is that after your reservation gets read and you get past that nice lit hall with the Ludens statue, the very first thing you see is a showcase of Kojima's conference passes and Death Stranding's pre-release awards:

Not only that, but the gallery's walls were plastered with Kojima quotes.

But what really struck me is that despite the event being a gallery, NOTHING was labeled except for the selfie wall.
So I had no idea who made any of this gorgeous concept art.

Gush · Nov 10, 2019

Wamb0wneD said:
Ah, the legendary Dumbening that happened right before Death Stranding launched.

Talk about bad timing. Kojima just can't catch a break.

adumb · Nov 10, 2019

Calles said:
Kojima logic.

'Stop treating each other like shit for having different perspectives' is Kojima logic?

I don't think he's ever been that clear.

Betty · Nov 10, 2019

Crushed said:
Giant Bomb's review was actually about how the reviewer enjoyed the traversal gameplay most of all and thought the shooting/combat was bad and out of place, as well as thinking that the writing was terrible.

Still gave it a 4/10, if you listened to that review most would steer clear of the game.

I haven't even played it yet but i'm surprised how many people who were wary are ended up loving it.

tazmin · Nov 10, 2019

SENPAIatLARGE said:
I can't wait for Kojima to start making movies and get utterly eviscerated by actual professional film critics that don't have the low standards for story and dialogue that games media does. The shock will be real.

Film critics aren't really any better in this day and age

Lobster Roll · Nov 10, 2019

SENPAIatLARGE said:
I can't wait for Kojima to start making movies and get utterly eviscerated by actual professional film critics that don't have the low standards for story and dialogue that games media does. The shock will be real.

Careful, you'll summon the "writing in games is as robust as books, films, and television" crowd with that talk.

Proven · Nov 10, 2019

Crushed said:
Giant Bomb's review was actually about how the reviewer enjoyed the traversal gameplay most of all and thought the shooting/combat was bad and out of place, as well as thinking that the writing was terrible.

That's where I'm at but the traversal is so good that it kind of blocks out the horrible story and writing and combat

kirbyfan407 · Nov 10, 2019

I find this generalization of American reviewer tastes absurd. I also find it odd he's saying this, given that it still reviewed well. It rubs me the wrong way to dismiss criticism in the way this quote suggests.

However, I do have to ask: is this an English translation of an Italian translation of a Japanese response to an Italian question? Using Google Translate, I got similar results to what wccftech wrote, but I'm wondering if anyone else has verified the English-to-Italian translation.

Deleted member 37917 · Nov 10, 2019

I don't want to shit on him because he's undeniably talented even though I'm no fan, but the more he opens his mouth and the more he of a prick he seems. Why can't he just accept that his game is probably flawed, and while some people may still love it, there's gonna be a substantial minority who are just not going to be into it?

ket · Nov 10, 2019

Toney J said:
He's right in a more general sense. This didn't connect with the average casual gamer because it's not a shooter or open world fantasy game. Delivering boxes isnt going to sound appealing to a lot of people on paper.

Known open world fantasy & FPS games such as NBA 2K20 and Madden 20

HK-47 · Nov 10, 2019

newmoneytrash said:
yikes

"i can excuse sexism but pretension is where i draw the line" is definitely a worthy take for this thread

You didn't get what I meant. I think the mysogyny is worse than any amount of pretentious baggage.

Van Bur3n · Nov 10, 2019

tazmin said:
Film critics aren't really any better in this day and age

Surely they must be Americans.

L Thammy · Nov 10, 2019

Posting this again because this thread is moving too fast and I was hoping for someone who is a bigger fan of his work than I am could answer.

Honest question: when did Kojima start being framed as high art? Whether by himself or other people. At the start of his career he was obsessed with popcorny American action movies and blatantly ripped from them.

Obviously, he still loves Hollywood and film. But it's presented very differently now than it was back then. When'd that change?

newmoneytrash · Nov 10, 2019

HK-47 said:
You didn't get what I meant. I think the mysogyny is worse than any amount of pretentious baggage.

oh, good. i must have misread

HK-47 · Nov 10, 2019

Betty said:
Still gave it a 4/10, if you listened to that review most would steer clear of the game.

I haven't even played it yet but i'm surprised how many people who were wary are ended up loving it.

One would think the content mattered more than the score.

Deleted member 23893 · Nov 10, 2019

Quotes like this and the "you will regret your words and deeds" but re: Quiet and her...choice, of clothing.

I like dude's games. But he needs to know when to keep his thoughts to himself and not be so thin skinned.

Some of the most universally acclaimed games, US included, from the last 90 days on Metacritic (not that it's a perfect rubric) are Monster Hunter World's expansion, Dragon Quest 11 S, Frostpunk, and Disco Elysium. But yes, please. Let's generalize and say the reason some outfits didn't like your almost intentionally divisive game is because "US gamers wish it was a shooter". Shaking my damn head.

Deleted member 20630 · Nov 10, 2019

Phendrift said:
Funny you say that as they sent DS to some film critics to review as well and from what I've seen they loved it

You said they, but linked to one article which mainly seems enamored with how it blurs the line between game and movie, and how novel that is. It also admits that all the criticisms that were true of his past games are still true of DS. To be fair, the impression overall is that the reviewer was impressed, but the whole thing was more framed around the blurring of the lines.

Definitely not saying I don't believe you, but do you have any other examples? I'd actually love to read more because the idea of the crossover appeal this has is pretty interesting.

On topic: I haven't kept up with how this game was reviewed outside of seeing a handful of outlets giving it a 3/5. So I had to check Metacritic because I thought this was getting polarizing reviews, or being torn apart. It's sitting at an 83. He's getting up his own ass and saying detractors just didn't understand his work....over an 83, which means that was overwhelmingly positively received by reviewers? People are mad because it "only" averaged an 83? Reminds me of the MGS4 gametrailers review, except I don't recall Kojima stoking that particular fire himself.

Xumbrega · Nov 10, 2019

Nome said:
It's real, I took the pic myself at the pop-up gallery last Friday. You can read about the event here:

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2019/11/06/youre-invited-the-art-of-death-stranding-gallery-event/

What that blog doesn't tell you is that after your reservation gets read and you get past that nice lit hall with the Ludens statue, the very first thing you see is a showcase of Kojima's conference passes and Death Stranding's pre-release awards:

Not only that, but the gallery's walls were plastered with Kojima quotes.

But what really struck me is that despite the event being a gallery, NOTHING was labeled except for the selfie wall.
So I had no idea who made any of this gorgeous concept art.

Holy shit lmao

El-Pistolero · Nov 10, 2019

Armaros said:
So you were agreeing with something that was wrong?

I am agreeing about his remark in regard to European art critics being, on average, more open and, in a sense, more welcoming of stranger products than their American counterparts. I am not sure, however, that DS has any actual merits as I would have to try it for myself.

Gestault · Nov 10, 2019

If there's one thing that I legitimately find upsetting in a gallery, it's when a project lead presents themselves centrally, and includes tons of work from other team-members without attribution. To me, that's parasitic, even if the lead truly is a focal-point for the project. If someone is even willing to see their name presented as a catch-all to a massive team's body of work, I think that's worth an eyebrow raise.

Betty · Nov 10, 2019

L Thammy said:
Posting this again because this thread is moving too fast and I was hoping for someone who is a b

Honest question: when did Kojima start being framed as high art? Whether by himself or other people. At the start of his career he was obsessed with popcorny American action movies and blatantly ripped from them.

Mostly the people that hate him try to frame him as this high art, avant-garde genius.

People that like him just think he's made some fucking excellent game with great characters which meant a lot to them.

Also Kojima makes no bones about how he is inspired by movies, he even calls Snake Plissken in MGS2 lol.

Raonak · Nov 10, 2019

I can see how people would find death stranding boring...

But personally, I find walking through the environment and planning routes quite enjoyable. The moment to moment gameplay is a series of interesting decisions. Im 30 hours in and can't stop playing it.

Im having a lot more fun with it over kh3 which i was playing just before it.

Prine · Nov 10, 2019

Fact he thinks his work in DS is above shooters as a genre is astonishing, wrap that up as a condescending slight about US industry's habits just reflects poorly on him. The hubris is off the charts. Creating bombs from excrement and finely stiched cutscenes of Norman vacating his bowels is too high minded for the rabble, thanks Kojima.

Van Bur3n · Nov 10, 2019

Betty said:
Mostly the people that hate him try to frame him as this high art, avant-garde genius.

I mean, Kojima kinda of does it himself.

Betty · Nov 10, 2019

HK-47 said:
One would think the content mattered more than the score.

Yes well people see 6.8 or 3.5 or 4 out of 10 and just think "garbage"

Imitation Of Life · Nov 10, 2019

Champion said:
What template?

Interesting moment to moment gameplay. Which to a large amount of people isn't going to be a focus on inventory management. It is divisive as many predicted.

ConHaki66 · Nov 10, 2019

I blame Geoff Keighley

Wamb0wneD · Nov 10, 2019

L Thammy said:
Posting this again because this thread is moving too fast and I was hoping for someone who is a bigger fan of his work than I am could answer.

Honest question: when did Kojima start being framed as high art? Whether by himself or other people. At the start of his career he was obsessed with popcorny American action movies and blatantly ripped from them.

Obviously, he still loves Hollywood and film. But it's presented very differently now than it was back then. When'd that change?

My guess is that back then stories that were told in games were still really rudimentary. Then he comes along with campy as fuck stories and characters, adds a shitton of convoluted nonsense that some people see as "deep" storytelling, and suddenly he's a genius and gaming's messiah. Something like that.

Papercuts · Nov 10, 2019

Betty said:
Yes well people see 6.8 or 3.5 or 4 out of 10 and just think "garbage"

It's not a reviewers fault if someone sees a score, doesn't read any of the context and makes a decision off of that.

Phendrift · Nov 10, 2019

ScribbleD said:
You said they, but linked to one article which mainly seems enamored with how it blurs the line between game and movie, and how novel that is. It also admits that all the criticisms that were true of his past games are still true of DS. To be fair, the impression overall is that the reviewer was impressed, but the whole thing was more framed around the blurring of the lines.

Definitely not saying I don't believe you, but do you have any other examples? I'd actually love to read more because the idea of the crossover appeal this has is pretty interesting.

On topic: I haven't kept up with how this game was reviewed outside of seeing a handful of outlets giving it a 3/5. So I had to check Metacritic because I thought this was getting polarizing reviews, or being torn apart. It's sitting at an 83. He's getting up his own ass and saying detractors just didn't understand his work....over an 83, which means that was overwhelmingly positively received by reviewers? People are mad because it "only" averaged an 83? Reminds me of the MGS4 gametrailers review, except I don't recall Kojima stoking that particular fire himself.

Here's one where George Miller said he sees the skills of great filmmakers in Kojima.

Edit: well he's not a critic but still a highly respected person in the industry. It goes without saying that Del Toro is on board with him too.

Sensei · Nov 10, 2019

why in the world would he say this

tazmin · Nov 10, 2019

Van Bur3n said:
Surely they must be Americans.

Lool
Seen too many film reviews where they are seemingly reviewing a film they conjured up in their heads rather than what's in front of them or reviewers competing to who can be the most snarky

Wamb0wneD · Nov 10, 2019

Betty said:
Mostly the people that hate him try to frame him as this high art, avant-garde genius.

People that like him just think he's made some fucking excellent game with great characters which meant a lot to them.

Also Kojima makes no bones about how he is inspired by movies, he even calls Snake Plissken in MGS2 lol.

Absolute nonsense, sorry. Not once have I seen someone anyone who dislikes him praise him as a high art, avant garde genius.

Deleted member 20630 · Nov 10, 2019

HK-47 said:
He has a pretty decent sense of direction and cinematography. The writing, especially character writing, is his Achilles heel.

Actually, y'know what? You're absolutely right. He does have a decent sense of cinematography, so maybe film critics wouldn't savage his work quite as hard as I'd expect. I still don't think he'd fair nearly as well with film critics as game critics given they tend to use the 10-point scale much more liberally and work through a harsher critical lens in general, but I'm probably wrong to think a Kojima movie would be getting 3s and 4s based purely off his writing. Maybe 5-6s on average?

Either way, if a metacritic average of 83 gets this reaction from him, he'd go nuclear over an average between 50 and 60.

JustinH · Nov 10, 2019

VDenter said:
If i had to guess it was probobaly the IGN review that got to him.

MGS 9.8/10
MGS2 9.7/10
MGS3 9.8/10
MGS4 10/10
MGS PW 9.5/10
MGSV 10/10
DS 6.8/10

I wouldn't know... but I would've guessed it's the Giant Bomb review that probably hurt more, since Dan Ryckert's from there (sorta), seemed to always been a huge Kojima fan and he went to the event and got a selfie and everything (apparently from a pic in the thread? I don't know if that was from something else). He didn't write the review, but the first thing during the Beastcast where they talk about the game, and it really sounded like he couldn't wait to blurt it out, was "Well, the game fucking sucks."

Doggg said:
Australians didn't like it because not enough knoifes

This was a silly post, but it made me chuckle.

Nome said:
It's real, I took the pic myself at the pop-up gallery last Friday. You can read about the event here:

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2019/11/06/youre-invited-the-art-of-death-stranding-gallery-event/
...
...

Wow, also... I hope there will be some kind of art book for the game because I think it looks gorgeous and that concept art looks like something I'd want to see more of (edit: Oh apparently there will be one set to release right after the New Year).

Betty · Nov 10, 2019

Papercuts said:
It's not a reviewers fault if someone sees a score, doesn't read any of the context and makes a decision off of that.

Oh definitely, but that's how it is.

ThisIsBlitz21 · Nov 10, 2019

Man Kojima sure needs to get his head out of his ass

Deleted member 20630 · Nov 10, 2019

Phendrift said:
Here's one where George Miller said he sees the skills of great filmmakers in Kojima.

Dope! Thanks. Will read it in a bit.

Slayven · Nov 10, 2019

Betty said:
Irredeemable garbage is damning, but a 3.5 just doesn't fit that statement to me.

I see giving them point for being technically functioning

Papercuts · Nov 10, 2019

Betty said:
Oh definitely, but that's how it is.

It is, but if I was in a reviewer's shoes I wouldn't let that be an influence. It's basically the reason the scale is so fucked up already where 7-10 is basically all you get.

Deleted member 29660 · Nov 10, 2019

adumb said:
'Stop treating each other like shit for having different perspectives' is Kojima logic?

I don't think he's ever been that clear.

Considering what you were saying at the end, yeah. It was.

You were saying one thing at people and then doing the exact thing you were accusing others of doing.

Being infantile .

Betty · Nov 10, 2019

Slayven said:
I see giving them point for being technically functioning

If you say so.

I just think if you are literally going to class something as "irredeemable garbage" you may as well give the score the suits that statement.

Sterling's Gold · Nov 10, 2019

L Thammy said:
Posting this again because this thread is moving too fast and I was hoping for someone who is a bigger fan of his work than I am could answer.

Honest question: when did Kojima start being framed as high art? Whether by himself or other people. At the start of his career he was obsessed with popcorny American action movies and blatantly ripped from them.

Obviously, he still loves Hollywood and film. But it's presented very differently now than it was back then. When'd that change?

This is absolutely true. Kojima should be paying John Carpenter royalties lol.

The way that gamers constantly put him on a pedestal as some kind of brilliant auteur is hilarious. Some of these people see the entry level examination of postmodernism in MGS2 and they think he's a genius.

And I actually really like MGS1-3 overall.

Phendrift · Nov 10, 2019

ScribbleD said:
Dope! Thanks. Will read it in a bit.

As seen in my edit I know I said in my original post film critics and he's not, but still a respected person in the industry.

I'm not trying to say I disagree with flaws that Kojima has in his writing, but the "he'd get annihilated by film critics" posts seem a bit much when you have people who are highly respected in that industry praising lots of aspects of his work.

I also don't want him to make films either as we lose his unique approach to gameplay lol

Bricktop · Nov 10, 2019

Betty said:
Mostly the people that hate him try to frame him as this high art, avant-garde genius.

People that like him just think he's made some fucking excellent game with great characters which meant a lot to them.

Also Kojima makes no bones about how he is inspired by movies, he even calls Snake Plissken in MGS2 lol.

This is not true. I've never seen another fanbase call a developer an auteur or genius more than Kojima fans.

JustinH said:
Wow, also... I hope there will be some kind of art book for the game because I think it looks gorgeous and that concept art looks like something I'd want to see more of.

An Hideo Kojima artbook.

Written by Hideo Kojima.

Printed by Hideo Kojima.

With art Directed by Hideo Kojima to be drawn by Hideo Kojima and Published by Hideo Kojima.

...Hideo Kojima.

Lotus · Nov 10, 2019

Didn't expect him to be insecure over something like this lol

Betty · Nov 10, 2019

Bricktop said:
This is not true. I've never seen another fanbase call a developer an auteur or genius more than Kojima fans.

I mean the only other name in cinematic storytelling that has such control over all aspects of his work is David Cage, and no many are calling him a genius either.

There just aren't many directors out there doing what he does in gaming. I think he's had a lot of genius moments in his games, but he's not infallible or perfect.

RedRum · Nov 10, 2019

Nome said:
But what really struck me is that despite the event being a gallery, NOTHING was labeled except for the selfie wall. So I had no idea who made any of this gorgeous concept art.

I had to dig to find but it's probably Yoji Shinkawa for the artwork. Not surprised there's no name claim.

Armaros · Nov 10, 2019

Lotus said:
Didn't expect him to be insecure over something like this lol

I do, because this is his first game since his split with Konami.

Cipherr · Nov 10, 2019

Shakerovic said:
https://wccftech.com/kojima-death-s...-us-possibly-because-it-flies-above-shooters/

Damn, hes going to trigger a lot of people with that.

Kojima: Death Stranding Had Stronger Criticism in the US, Possibly Because It Flies Above Shooters

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