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Knives Out | Spoiler Thread | Whodonut?
- Thread starter Jam
- Start date
I've found myself having quite a range of opinions on Rian Johnson's filmography over the years -- Brick was an interesting stylistic gimmick but not much more; The Brothers Bloom made easily the least impression on me of anything he's done; Looper was my second-favourite film of its year; I was a great admirer of his TV work; The Last Jedi was a big disappointment, and prelude to the even bigger disappointment of seeing the discourse of not liking that movie mostly overtaken by a collection of the internet's very worst people. And the trailers for Knives Out did not appear especially promising to me. So I was very happy indeed to come away loving the movie. Definitely one the year's best, in my view.
Terrific mystery structure and strong direction, plus an expectedly strong cast (though I agree with some comments here that a lot of the actors don't really get much to do, since this turns out to not really be an ensemble film).
If one was going to quibble with anything significant, the plot requires Fran to be really, really dumb.
Terrific mystery structure and strong direction, plus an expectedly strong cast (though I agree with some comments here that a lot of the actors don't really get much to do, since this turns out to not really be an ensemble film).
If one was going to quibble with anything significant, the plot requires Fran to be really, really dumb.
The way everything fits together at the end is often the magic of whodoneits and this one absolutely nails it. Ransom being the culprit is something that one would predict from the outset but I totally did not have the idea of how he could be involved from beginning to end in mind at all.
I think that certain members of the phenomenal cast were underutilized, but Evans nails it. I'm still not a Daniel Craig guy and I wasn't sold on his performance here, but I liked his character's dialogue enough that it didn't detract from things too much. On a basic level though the movie has one of the strongest ensemble casts of characters I've seen in a while, not one of them feels uninteresting.
I think moment-to-moment I would have liked things more if it were a traditional mystery movie (during the second act especially it's really more of a family drama movie and ultimately my expectations weren't really met there), but I also don't think the pieces would have fit together without it being like that.
And yeah, politically the movie is very much of-the-times and handles things very well, moreso than other Hollywood movies.
Looking this over a lot of it sounds really positive but I think I'm ultimately just kind of positive-lukewarm on the movie and I'm not sure why I don't like it more? Idk. It's still good but yeah. I don't think I'm super fond of Rian's directing style but I can't put my finger on why.
I think that certain members of the phenomenal cast were underutilized, but Evans nails it. I'm still not a Daniel Craig guy and I wasn't sold on his performance here, but I liked his character's dialogue enough that it didn't detract from things too much. On a basic level though the movie has one of the strongest ensemble casts of characters I've seen in a while, not one of them feels uninteresting.
I think moment-to-moment I would have liked things more if it were a traditional mystery movie (during the second act especially it's really more of a family drama movie and ultimately my expectations weren't really met there), but I also don't think the pieces would have fit together without it being like that.
And yeah, politically the movie is very much of-the-times and handles things very well, moreso than other Hollywood movies.
Looking this over a lot of it sounds really positive but I think I'm ultimately just kind of positive-lukewarm on the movie and I'm not sure why I don't like it more? Idk. It's still good but yeah. I don't think I'm super fond of Rian's directing style but I can't put my finger on why.
It sounded like she did intend to help out Langford's character, though.
Meg is the only family member who was even remotely sympathetic by the end, to the extent that I can basically just see her buckling under the pressure from her family. All the rest of them turn horrid at the drop of a hat
Meg was actually one of the least sympathetic persons in the movie for me. She's exactly what privilege represents. For all her principled thoughts, once the inheritance got taken away, she crumbled to reveal the most personal and incriminating information about her "friend".
To be fair, she was still feeling guilty from causing Harlan's death. There's some ambiguity in the last shot and Blanc's last exchange when she questioned if she should be helping them.
To be fair, she was still feeling guilty from causing Harlan's death. There's some ambiguity in the last shot and Blanc's last exchange when she questioned if she should be helping them.
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With Brothers Bloom being one of my favorite films of all time, I adored this. Felt right up that alley again.
HUGH DID THIS
I adored this film. The only thing that bothered me was they made a big deal out of the "dead in 10 minutes" thing but then when Ransom did it to Fran, she lived for at least an hour and based on the timeline at the end, closer to two hours. Did I miss something?
I also loved the fact that the characters kept changing which Central/South American country they said Marta was from.
I adored this film. The only thing that bothered me was they made a big deal out of the "dead in 10 minutes" thing but then when Ransom did it to Fran, she lived for at least an hour and based on the timeline at the end, closer to two hours. Did I miss something?
I also loved the fact that the characters kept changing which Central/South American country they said Marta was from.
I think she'll share it, but she'll be a real hard arse custodian of it. She knows about Joni's fraud for one, and Meg's attempted manipulation.
Well thats the best part about the ending. Rian leaves it up to the audience. So we can be as mean or as nice as we want.
"The Last Jedi" of murder-mystery movies.
Like TLJ, KO seems to exist to subvert tropes of it's genre. But the movie wasn't as smart as it thought it was. Seemingly the lack of a twist was the major twist. A suicide remained a suicide. Chris Evans entered the movie as the likeliest suspect of the "murder" and it pretty much ran a straight line back to him by the end.
Personal opinion but the lack of surprise should not be the surprise.
Maybe a better "twist = no twist" would have been the closing shot of Marta drinking from the "My house. My coffee. My rules." mug and then she giving a subtle smile before cutting to credits. The realization that Marta was in fact the "murderer". And the murder weapon? The family's greed.
The movies continually establishes that the family kept fucking themselves over and then further by attempting to amend with greed. And Marta is the innocent girl who accidentally "kills" and then spends the movie trying to lie and obstruct the truth. That then she would be revealed to have used the family's greed as a tool to con them out of their own fortune and fool the maybe-not-as-good-as-he-thinks-he-is legendary detective with her "good heart".
IDK feels like Marta actually being the bad guy would have worked better to subvert murder-mystery tropes than pretty much knowing the whole story in the first 20-30 mins and then waiting for the movie to get there.
Like TLJ, KO seems to exist to subvert tropes of it's genre. But the movie wasn't as smart as it thought it was. Seemingly the lack of a twist was the major twist. A suicide remained a suicide. Chris Evans entered the movie as the likeliest suspect of the "murder" and it pretty much ran a straight line back to him by the end.
Personal opinion but the lack of surprise should not be the surprise.
Maybe a better "twist = no twist" would have been the closing shot of Marta drinking from the "My house. My coffee. My rules." mug and then she giving a subtle smile before cutting to credits. The realization that Marta was in fact the "murderer". And the murder weapon? The family's greed.
The movies continually establishes that the family kept fucking themselves over and then further by attempting to amend with greed. And Marta is the innocent girl who accidentally "kills" and then spends the movie trying to lie and obstruct the truth. That then she would be revealed to have used the family's greed as a tool to con them out of their own fortune and fool the maybe-not-as-good-as-he-thinks-he-is legendary detective with her "good heart".
IDK feels like Marta actually being the bad guy would have worked better to subvert murder-mystery tropes than pretty much knowing the whole story in the first 20-30 mins and then waiting for the movie to get there.
Marta was injecting it straight into the bloodstream while Ransom did it randomly somewhere into her chest. We also don't know the dosage.
I mean, he wasn't actually dying. And he needed something that could not have taken place while Marta was still in the house, so she could be absolved of blame.
This and them not even allowing her to go to the funeral, buncha assholes. Then they have to audacity to talk about how good they were to her. lol
As I said in the main thread, I immediately expected to be an actual suicide.
I did forget about Ransom though, and expected Harlan to have intentionally staged everything leading up to his suicide (knocking over the vials and switching them out himself).
Did not catch the "Ransom you're back again" or the dogs.
I did forget about Ransom though, and expected Harlan to have intentionally staged everything leading up to his suicide (knocking over the vials and switching them out himself).
Did not catch the "Ransom you're back again" or the dogs.
I understand not being into the relatively straightforward arc (for a murder mystery, anyway), but that suggestion is the definition of a twist for twist's sake, which I can't stand. It's writing the exact same movie but adding a "but maybe the exact opposite happened??" shot at the end. It's also adding a needlessly cynical read to the film, I think.
I said it in one of the other threads, but I prefer mysteries like this to err on the side of predictability and consistency rather than twisting into pretzels just to keep the audience guessing.
(For what it's worth, I thought the film sagged a bit in the middle, though.)
That's a good take on it, though calling anything TLJ-esque is a far cry. This is a decent movie as opposed to flaming hot garbage.
Question: What was up with that note that Jamie Lee Curtis' character was reading at the end with the invisible ink?
yeah i also made instant mental notes of the sounds of the "go-board" falling and dogs barking. So unfortunately didn´t have a big revelation with Evans´ involvement :D and i found the swapping of the labels and the throatcutting suicide a little too unbelievable, even though the theme is theatrics and "you live in a clue board" so it´s fine :D
pace and rhythm of the editing of film could have used some tightening up, felt it didn´t really flow well for me either.
That was telling her that her husband was cheating.
And hard disagree on TLJ. You can see shades of Rian's originality all over it, just like you can see the exact moment that either JJ or DIsney forced him to course-correct and have Kylo go full stupid.
Yeah, I was CERTAIN Harlan did that on purpose when he flipped the board. I thought he was trying to manufacture a situation where no one, including Marta, got the money in his will. I also for a very brief moment thought he switched the vials as a prank on Marta to illustrate some kind of point about storytelling. I kept waiting for him to reveal that he had the antidote the whole time, but mercifully I guess Harlan wasn't that much of an asshole compared to some of his family members.
They didn't prevent her, she didn't go because she was the one who killed him (or so she thought at the time). In fact, they mention several times their surprise that she wasn't there.
In general, they were good to her. It's a point of the film to see how quickly they turn on "family" when their money gets involved.
Once the "reveal" of Marta's mistake happened, I wasn't sure where the film was going. On the one hand, I did entertain the idea that she had actually masterminded the whole thing, but on the other hand, she was awfully clumsy in execution.
Plus, even when everything seemed wrapped up nicely (way too early), I kept wondering "Who woke up the dogs at 3AM?". Even knowing it was Ransom, as the only one who elicits that reaction from the dogs, I couldn't figure out what part he played. It didn't occur to me that someone else had switched the vials, I just thought maybe Marta was mistaken about switching the vials in the first place (which wound up being half true).
The Blanc character was good, and they mention how he's Holmes-like and even considers himself as such. But without all the pieces in place, it's kind of funny how utterly clueless he is throughout (but it works because he knows he's clueless).
And of course, donuts.
No... They kept the funeral family-only. That's why they kept saying they were out-voted in allowing her to attend.
It's a running joke that she wasn't allowed to go but the family member talking to her "tried" to convince the rest but was out voted.
Just because they weren't abusive doesn't mean they were good to her. To them she was just kinda there which is why they didn't even know what country she was from. When they actively had to invite her to her dad's funeral, none of them wanted her there because, unlike their pretend appearances, she wasn't actually considered part of the family.
Basically when someone thinks they're smarter than the writer and predicted all the twists in advance.
Saw it with my partner last night and we loved the film. Definitely going to be a part of our collection when it's released. We both went in pretty blind and we felt the film was definitely better for it. I liked how they dropped the clues ever so slightly between the conversations and just bringing everything full circle. I caught most of the clues that were important to figuring out it was Ransom, but honestly I got pulled into the characters so much that I forgot by the time the reveal happens.
My only pet peeve would be the vial switching. Blanc's explanation that Marta knew that the drugs were different because they differ ever so slightly in ...terms I don't remember at the moment, isn't wrong. But having worked with both drugs, the differences are imperceptible without using calibrated equipment. Fentanyl would've made more sense as its very slightly more viscous then Ketorolac. Its different enough that a nurse should notice the slight resistance in drawing up the drug.
In regards to what someone else said here about the emphasis on 10 minutes, I don't have an answer for that, but the explanation of IV vs random injection site makes sense. That and there's weight/ age differences in the patient/victim to account for as well as dose strength.
Anyway great movie! Can't wait to own it!
My only pet peeve would be the vial switching. Blanc's explanation that Marta knew that the drugs were different because they differ ever so slightly in ...terms I don't remember at the moment, isn't wrong. But having worked with both drugs, the differences are imperceptible without using calibrated equipment. Fentanyl would've made more sense as its very slightly more viscous then Ketorolac. Its different enough that a nurse should notice the slight resistance in drawing up the drug.
In regards to what someone else said here about the emphasis on 10 minutes, I don't have an answer for that, but the explanation of IV vs random injection site makes sense. That and there's weight/ age differences in the patient/victim to account for as well as dose strength.
Anyway great movie! Can't wait to own it!
I mentioned last week how much I loved this film and I'm hoping to see it again this weekend.
I truly love the last two shots of the film. From her above them on the balcony and her with the mug at the end.
Go in blind. That's all I got to say
I truly love the last two shots of the film. From her above them on the balcony and her with the mug at the end.
Go in blind. That's all I got to say
Honestly, I was wondering if Plummer took away the antidote and flipped the table to get himself killed and have his family go through all of that hell. He had seemed so blase about the whole thing and wanted to create the ultimate whodunnit.
Chris Evans played such a fantastic asshole. Eat shit eat shit, you especially eat shit.
Ana de armas was really charming
DC hot damn he played a live incarnation of my favorite detective of all time (though way goofier) (Aloysius Pendergast - Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child)
Chris Evans played such a fantastic asshole. Eat shit eat shit, you especially eat shit.
Ana de armas was really charming
DC hot damn he played a live incarnation of my favorite detective of all time (though way goofier) (Aloysius Pendergast - Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child)
Honestly Langford's character was the most sympathetic and her part of the family reasonably didn't have anything else to fall back on. Curtis' character owned her own business, I imagine the youngest brother still had a lot to fall back on from the publishing company even if he isn't there anymore. She was being coerced by her family, and yeah, imagine suddenly realizing you can't afford to finish school because your mom is a deadbeat. That isn't her fault. Granted there must have been something else going on or else the grandfather would have left something for her (or he felt that Marta would do the right thing and take care of his granddaughter being the good person she is.
Nah sorry zero sympathy on my end. This was entirely about privilege. She and her mother may have been the "liberals" of the family arguing against the children in camps issue but ultimately when the hispanic they used as a prop to make themselves feel better when they pushed for the family to support her stopped being someone they could give hand downs to and became someone with more power than them all of a sudden the white privilege took over. She calls her and immediately says it's their right to get the money when they had been abusing the grandfather and exploiting his success. Hell nobody even bothered to truly get to know her even her supposed friend in the family, they all went back and forth over which South/central American country she's from.
Marta tells her she will keep providing for her school and she still manages to be coerced to give out such sensitive information about Martas family and then feels bad? What fucking ever. I've seen this shit hundreds of times. Folks being allies until they aren't the one with privilege or in control.
She also betrayed her friends confidence to let the family try to manipulate her and in the end also only cared about the money,
There was also that scene with the two of them as they were coming into the mansion and she was about to confess to what she'd thought she'd done. Meg seemed sincere enough there in terms of being repentant.
The one thing I found odd about her character in terms of the writing is that unlike everybody else (apart from the elderly mother) there didn't seem to be any reason Harlan personally disliked her. He seemed to lump her in with her mother's embezzlement, even though from their conversations Meg clearly wasn't in on that and had no idea the state of the family finances.
The movie pretty much outright says it with the detective saying he wouldn't do it if it was him but he knows she'll do something different and the final shot with, "My house, my rules".
One thing that occurred to me afterward: Harlan's will doesn't seem to make any provision at all for his mother. What's going to happen to her?
Absolutely. And then her hugging Marta when she and Blanc come back for the finale just feels so hollow.
Marta had control of the medicine. If Harlan ODed himself that's maybe negligence on her. The knife was cleaner, takes her totally out of the picture.
Maybe she's got her own bucks.
They'll have to change his name in every translation, lol
Spanish: No, ella no dijo 'Usted', ella dijo HOUSTON!
something like that yeah :D Airplane and other Leslie Nielsen classics always lost half of their jokes as translators struggled to subtitle the lingo-jokes way back :D
?
No she was flat out not invited and the entire family agreed but every single one of them were spineless and told her that they wanted her there but everyone else didn't.
The point of it is to highlight that they're all trash people.
And no they weren't good to her, they just were really fake
Yeah they were not good to her lmao. Never bothered to learn where she was from, didn't invite her to the funeral of someone she was closer to than any of them, and use her as a prop for political discussions. Not insulting her 24/7 does not mean they were good to her.
I interpreted the final shot as the total opposite with the "my house" mug basically meaning "fuck y'all".