jp devs are really bad at taking advantage of the success of other jp devs.

[nsilvias]

something i've noticed over the years about jp devs is that they'll see a jp dev have some major success on the enthusiast side of gaming selling a couple million copies and then instead of trying to chase after that same audience that the dev who found success cultivated they decide to doubledown on otaku while still copying whatever game was successful instead of making something that would appeal to a wider audience. examples of this would be dark souls in recent years with bamcos anime souls and persona with the countless jrpgs that have copied social links and the school setting.
now dont get me wrong i know that persona is anime and also panders to otaku but it is alot less off putting than alot of other jrpgs which can get anime as fuck in the weird kind of way. also the persona art style while anime still feels like its normal enough for the average person to appreciate.
what do you all think? am i wrong or do i have a point? just something i've been thinking about for a while.

 

[FreeMufasa]

You got a point. Sega are the most frustrating. They don't even follow their own successes.

 

[Heromanz]

Persona is weird as fuck in a anime way. Like you can fuck your teacher. And even then plenty of jrgp have done the school stuff before persona and after persona. Japanse dev copy people all the time just like western dev or any one really

 

[Kinthey]

examples of this would be dark souls in recent years with bamcos anime souls and persona with the countless jrpgs that have copied social links and the school setting.

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Making an anime Dark Souls seems smarter to me than making another souls clone like Lords of the fallen. Basically, other devs already jumped on that.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Yeah. It is really annoying that almost every JRPG nowadays is pretty much doubling or tripling down on otaku bullshit. Please, just give me some games to play that aren't embarrassing nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 1849]

Persona itself is a series which became popular by doubling down on otaku, just in a less off-putting way than a lot of the games you are thinking of. It shouldn't be surprising that other games inspired by it do the same thing but take it further.

 

[rochellepaws]

It's 2019 and anime is reasonably mainstream at this point. It'd be cool if people could be a bit more descriptive than "anime as fuck" and without the casual condescension in "the persona art style while anime still feels like its normal enough for the average person to appreciate."

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

So now we want games to chase trends?

And if you truly think Japanese developers somehow don't chase trends, I got a couple of Monster Hunter clones to sell you.

 

[MrWindUpBird]

It's 2019 and anime is reasonably mainstream at this point. It'd be cool if people could be a bit more descriptive than "anime as fuck" and without the casual condescension in "the persona art style while anime still feels like its normal enough for the average person to appreciate."

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A game being "anime" in anyway is seen as such a derogatory thing in this forum, it's ridiculous at this point that people use that single word as legit criticism.

 

[nsilvias]

So now we want games to chase trends?

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not trends, the devs already did that by copying the formula. im talking more taking advantage of an existing audience created by the success of a game

 

[Phediuk]

Remember that for a long time, Japanese devs shunned basically any form of middleware whatsoever.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

not trends, the devs already did that by copying the formula. im talking more taking advantage of an existing audience

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So making games that appeal to the west.

I'm pretty sure we just had a whole generation dealing with this problem.

 

[nsilvias]

So making games that appeal to the west.

I'm pretty sure we just had a whole generation dealing with this problem.

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no not appealing to the "west"
appealing to a wider audience outside of otaku
i mean you dont really think the average japanese person buys these games that doubledown on otaku do you?
we know how well they sell in japan and they sell like shit. persona is miles more popular in japan than these jrpgs that focus on otaku. same goes for dragon quest in japan. if that games audience was just otaku it would not be such a cultural phenomenon in japan

 

[MajesticSoup]

It still boggles my mind that it took japanese dev's foreeeevvvverrr to take advantage of the retro revival. Western devs doing their best to emulate japanese games from the 90s and japanese devs are like 'damn, do we still know how to make 2D games?'

 

[Lua]

I would like if for once people actually would be direct about the problem without the need to generalize the word anime as a way to criticize something.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I would like if for once people actually would be direct about the problem without the need to generalize the word anime as a way to criticize something.

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Bland, dumb teenage protagonists, utterly repetitive writing and design choices, made-to-be-objectified female character designs, "she's actually a thousand years old" little girls in provocative clothes, etc.

It's not just that these games are bad because they're anime, they're bad because they consistently and shamelessly rely on some of otaku anime's worst cliches and stereotypes instead of doing anything unique, clever or interesting or trying to forge an actual identity. It's just "HEY OTAKU, IT'S ALL THE THINGS YOU LIKE!"

 

[Renna Hazel]

Persona Looks incredibly anime to me. The art style really turns me off. If that's not an anime looking game than I'd like to see what is.

 

[Lua]

It's not just that these games are bad because they're anime, they're bad because they consistently and shamelessly rely on some of otaku anime's worst cliches and stereotypes instead of doing anything unique, clever or interesting or trying to forge an actual identity. It's just "HEY OTAKU, IT'S ALL THE THINGS YOU LIKE!"

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Sure, i know all of that. But that's not what op said, and its not what most of topics about this say. Instead they just go "huh, this is so anime amirite guys" which is lazy and just make sure everytime we need to have the same conversation. If they wants to talk about something, then he should talk about that something, not use it as another way to throw punches at a media they dont like(which idk if its the case for op,i just see that a lot).

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

no not appealing to the "west"
appealing to a wider audience outside of otaku
i mean you dont really think the average person buys these games that doubledown on otaku do you?
we know how well they sell in japan and they sell like shit. persona is miles more popular in japan than these jrpgs that focus on otaku. same goes for dragon quest in japan. if that games audience was just otaku it would not be such a cultural phenomenon in japan

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As other people have mentioned, Persona is the most otaku ass otaku JRPG around and plenty of games have tried to copy that otaku-ass-otakuness from Persona and found their own small success from sticking to their anime roots like the Tales of series, Xenoblade series, even the Trails series. More to be found if we look into other genres like fighting games.... Even a franchise like Senran Kagura can be a success. Freaking Hyperdimension Neptunia is a success somehow.

Clearly the otakuism isn't the problem.

And Dragon Quest is the godfather of JRPGs, that's a whole other ball game.

 

[Rosebud]

It's their style, they won't change it. You just like japanese games or don't.

Have you played Zero Escape or Danganronpa? Great mystery games. ZE is focused in "escape the room" puzzles and Danganronpa in murder mysteries. But yeah they're anime.

 

[Ragnite]

Are there really countless RPGs copying Persona? I haven't really noticed that.

 

[XaviConcept]

The good devs (Japanese and otherwise) are the ones that follow their own creative interests, thats how you get games like Persona, NieR and Dark souls in the first place.

Wanting to discourage that pattern seems like a bad move to me.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Are there really countless RPGs copying Persona? I haven't really noticed that.

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Not really wholesale just bits and pieces, like Digimon Cyber Sleuth adopted the modern day feel and Trials of Cold Steel took inspiration for the social links.

The only game I've heard of that apparently "is just Persona" is a game called Mind Zero, but I've never played it so I can't vouch for that statement.

 

[RRW]

Are there really countless RPGs copying Persona? I haven't really noticed that.

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JRPG that use VN style interaction to progress with the story and character development. This day majority of anime JRPG fall to this category so you won't really notice it as "persona clone"

 

[Golnei]

Making an anime Dark Souls seems smarter to me than making another souls clone like Lords of the fallen. Basically, other devs already jumped on that.

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Just make a high school social sim RPG with Souls aesthetics alongside it.

 

[Rosebud]

Are there really countless RPGs copying Persona? I haven't really noticed that.

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I hope the Harry Potter devs copy Persona.

Well, except for the teacher part.

 

[Evildeadhead]

Didn't know BioWare was Japanese. Anthem would've been a banger if it was western developed and built on what Bungie achieved in the genre.

It still boggles my mind that it took japanese dev's foreeeevvvverrr to take advantage of the retro revival. Western devs doing their best to emulate japanese games from the 90s and japanese devs are like 'damn, do we still know how to make 2D games?'

Click to shrink...

Are you just going to ignore Nintendo?

 

[Cryptosporidium]

Yeah. It is really annoying that almost every JRPG nowadays is pretty much doubling or tripling down on otaku bullshit. Please, just give me some games to play that aren't embarrassing nonsense.

Click to shrink...

DQ11 is the hero we need

Cant wait for 12.

Please Monolith Soft, stop pandering and make a good xenoblade game again..

 

[HaremKing]

JRPG that use VN style interaction to progress with the story and character development. This day majority of anime JRPG fall to this category so you won't really notice it as "persona clone"

Click to shrink...

But that has been a staple of JRPGs long, long, long before Persona and to attribute ADV/VN style to something that JRPGs are copying from Persona isn't on point.

 

[Deleted member 35077]

JRPG that use VN style interaction to progress with the story and character development. This day majority of anime JRPG fall to this category so you won't really notice it as "persona clone"

Click to shrink...

But that has been a thing for a long as time. Look at the Rance series known for adding RPG elements in a visual novel game, or the Sakura Taisen games if you want a console game example.

 

[Kyougar]

something i've noticed over the years about jp devs is that they'll see a jp dev have some major success on the enthusiast side of gaming selling a couple million copies and then instead of trying to chase after that same audience that the dev who found success cultivated they decide to doubledown on otaku while still copying whatever game was successful instead of making something that would appeal to a wider audience. examples of this would be dark souls in recent years with bamcos anime souls and persona with the countless jrpgs that have copied social links and the school setting.
now dont get me wrong i know that persona is anime and also panders to otaku but it is alot less off putting than alot of other jrpgs which can get anime as fuck in the weird kind of way. also the persona art style while anime still feels like its normal enough for the average person to appreciate.
what do you all think? am i wrong or do i have a point? just something i've been thinking about for a while.

Click to shrink...

So you are saying devs (not just Japanese ones) should run after the next big thing focus-test their games to hell for a wiiiider audience and leave their most loyal fans behind.

Fuck that. I am grateful for those devs who make Dwarf Fortress instead of Call of Duty.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

DQ11 is the hero we need

Cant wait for 12.

Please Monolith Soft, stop pandering and make a good xenoblade game again..

Click to shrink...

Meh. DQXI was boring and had terrible music, a dull storyline and agonizingly slow combat. I need an RPG with actual ambition and creative drive, not just "it's the exact same game you've been playing for two decades, now with weird voice acting".

 

[azeke]

instead of trying to chase after that same audience that the dev who found success...

Click to shrink...

Good.

instead of making something that would appeal to a wider audience...

Click to shrink...

Good.

 

[Deleted member 50949]

Whenever a person always argues how devs should copy successful games instead of making their own thing, it always comes off as condescending. Let the developers make the games however they want.

Please Monolith Soft, stop pandering and make a good xenoblade game again..

Click to shrink...

But I thought Xenoblade 2 is a good game though?

 

[NSESN]

DQ11 is the hero we need

Cant wait for 12.

Please Monolith Soft, stop pandering and make a good xenoblade game again..

Click to shrink...

Xenoblade 2 is good even with the pandering tho

 

[Augemitbutter]

I kinda want a souls game with kazuma kaneko designs now. Thanks op.

 

[NSESN]

Also Nintendo has been hugely successful doing their own thing, you dont need to copy other games to be a success. Splatoon is a very original game and the most successful new japanese IP of the decade

 

[PlanetSmasher]

But I thought Xenoblade 2 is a good game though?

Click to shrink...

If you like terrible writing, extremely long and drawn-out cutscenes that involve characters saying the same things over and over again, constant pandering and objectification, a frustratingly overcomplicated battle system that needs over fourteen hours to fully explain all of its systems, mobile phone gacha mechanics, and an ultimately cynical worldview wrapped up in a paper-thin veneer of saccharine anime optimism, then sure. Great game.

 

[NSESN]

Xenoblade is 80 hour game, it introducing new mechanics after hours isn't that different from a game like Pesona introducing mechanics after hours too
I also wouldn't call Xeno 2's ending saccharine anime

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

As other people have mentioned, Persona is the most otaku ass otaku JRPG around

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Not really.
There's no lolis and a lot of the really sexualized stuff like bikini armor and whatnot are not in the forefront of the game, it's pretty tame on the otaku pandering side atleast compared to something like Xenoblade Chronicles 2 but of course as times goes on they might double down harder on that stuff.

I feel like a lot of us who are high on the JRPG kool-aid tend to be really obtuse when people use anime and otaku pandering as pejoratives. You know EXACTLY what people are talking about, there's no reason to equate "non otaku pandering" with "appealing to the west" when that's never been the case.

 

[Evildeadhead]

If you like terrible writing, extremely long and drawn-out cutscenes that involve characters saying the same things over and over again, constant pandering and objectification, a frustratingly overcomplicated battle system that needs over fourteen hours to fully explain all of its systems, mobile phone gacha mechanics, and an ultimately cynical worldview wrapped up in a paper-thin veneer of saccharine anime optimism, then sure. Great game.

Click to shrink...

Fuck me, all you do is moan.

 

[Sabin]

If you like terrible writing, extremely long and drawn-out cutscenes that involve characters saying the same things over and over again, constant pandering and objectification, a frustratingly overcomplicated battle system that needs over fourteen hours to fully explain all of its systems, mobile phone gacha mechanics, and an ultimately cynical worldview wrapped up in a paper-thin veneer of saccharine anime optimism, then sure. Great game.

Click to shrink...

The general census and sales numbers tell a different story tho.

So Monolith will probably stick with the formular and double down on it.

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

The general census and sales numbers tell a different story tho.

So Monolith will probably stick with the formular and double down on it.

Click to shrink...

You know something selling well doesn't mean it's good right?

 

[NSESN]

You know something selling well doesn't mean it's good right?

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That is why they said general census too.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

The general census and sales numbers tell a different story tho.

So Monolith will probably stick with the formular and double down on it.

Click to shrink...

Why would you want that, though?

 

[RedSwirl]

Japanese media in general has had to double down on otaku shit for years because of the economy over there -- otakus are just about the only reliable consumer base they have left in Japan.

And Japanese developers do follow trends, just different ones that appeal to their home audience.

Persona is indeed anime as fuck, but gets a pass because it actually tends to have well-written characters and isn't nearly as shallow as most of the other otaku-pandering shit.

But generally speaking, Japanese developers don't copy gameplay off each other in quite the same way westerners do. Westerners for decades have tended to consolidate things as if they're all trying to find the single optimal video game. If one gameplay mechanic or something becomes a big deal, they all start using it. You can go back and look at multiple Ultima games and see their influence spreading all the way up to stuff like Skyrim and BioShock. GTA is pretty obvious. A shitload of today's online games ultimately stem from a single obscure military sim game from 1995. It's like they're all trying to make the single ultimate simulator. Japanese devs on the other hand tend to see each individual game as its own game with its own distinct rules occasionally borrowing from other examples in the same genre.

 

[Tiggleton]

I feel like a lot of us who are high on the JRPG kool-aid tend to be really obtuse when people use anime and otaku pandering as pejoratives. You know EXACTLY what people are talking about, there's no reason to equate "non otaku pandering" with "appealing to the west" when that's never been the case.

Click to shrink...

High on the JRPG kool-aid? What?
Anyway I certainly know what people mean, I just hate that they take the lazy approach and group all their concerns together as "anime".
Which leads to dumb takes like "SNES and PS1 JRPGs weren't anime". My dude JRPGs have been borrowing from anime since Dragon Quest invented the damn thing.

Bland, dumb teenage protagonists, utterly repetitive writing and design choices, made-to-be-objectified female character designs, "she's actually a thousand years old" little girls in provocative clothes, etc.

It's not just that these games are bad because they're anime, they're bad because they consistently and shamelessly rely on some of otaku anime's worst cliches and stereotypes instead of doing anything unique, clever or interesting or trying to forge an actual identity. It's just "HEY OTAKU, IT'S ALL THE THINGS YOU LIKE!"

Click to shrink...

Like look at PlanetSmasher! Look at that post! They're telling you what they don't like. I at least know what we're dealing with and there's no potential smearing of an entire medium of being lazy and summarizing it as "anime".

Honestly I agree with a lot of this critics of "anime" in games. I just disagree with the wordage and it can confuse people. How do we know someone is critical of a game because of x traits instead of because it borrows from Japanese animation? I think that's why someone equates it with wanting to appeal to a western audience. Some people literally just don't like anime.

Say what you mean.

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

High on the JRPG kool-aid? What?
Anyway I certainly know what people mean, I just hate that they take the lazy approach and group all their concerns together as "anime".
Which leads to dumb takes like "SNES and PS1 JRPGs weren't anime". My dude JRPGs have been borrowing from anime since Dragon Quest invented the damn thing.



Like look at PlanetSmasher! Look at that post! They're telling you what they don't like. I at least know what we're dealing with and there's no potential smearing of an entire medium of being lazy and summarizing it as "anime".

Honestly I agree with a lot of this critics of "anime" in games. I just disagree with the wordage and it can confuse people. How do we know someone is critical of a game because of x traits instead of because it borrows from Japanese animation? I think that's why someone equates it with wanting to appeal to a western audience. Some people literally just don't like anime.

Say what you mean.

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But it's just shorthand that a lot of people understand. Your example stops being a bad take when you know what the meaning behind the use of the word is.

It is no different from describing something as "cartoony". It's shorthand for a collection of traits commonly found in cartoons.

 

[Omegamon]

Persona 5 is anime as fuck tho

 

[Dream Machine]

Bland, dumb teenage protagonists, utterly repetitive writing and design choices, made-to-be-objectified female character designs, "she's actually a thousand years old" little girls in provocative clothes, etc.

It's not just that these games are bad because they're anime, they're bad because they consistently and shamelessly rely on some of otaku anime's worst cliches and stereotypes instead of doing anything unique, clever or interesting or trying to forge an actual identity. It's just "HEY OTAKU, IT'S ALL THE THINGS YOU LIKE!"

Click to shrink...

Seems like "otaku" or "otaku anime" would be better word choice, then, if that's what you mean.

Just saying "anime" as a critique or even a description is some 2005-ass commentary.