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John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Tbh, even comic writers are starting to "get" Superman less. Emphasising his alien roots and making him an other forgetting that the point of Superman is that he's more human the rest of us.

He's biologically an alien but he is Clark Kent, a farm boy from Smallville. Just do a Superman movie where he also has human problems that he can't punch away, like marriage problems with Lois, issues with the Daily Planet, kids, trying to juggle being Clark Kent with being Superman.

People can relate to THAT stuff. In the same way that people love Spiderman because Peter has normal teen problems. Any story that makes Superman human, has always gotten the character right. Who cares how powerful he is. People love Thor, Hulk, Wanda & Doctor Strange who are gods in their Universe power wise. Wonder Woman had successful movies and she's pretty much billed as almost as strong as Superman.

There's also the President Lex Luthor storyline, sitting right there in this era with fascists in office.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,107
Tbh, even comic writers are starting to "get" Superman less. Emphasising his alien roots and making him an other forgetting that the point of Superman is that he's more human the rest of us.

He's biologically an alien but he is Clark Kent, a farm boy from Smallville. Just do a Superman movie where he also has human problems that he can't punch away, like marriage problems with Lois, issues with the Daily Planet, kids, trying to juggle being Clark Kent with being Superman.

People can relate to THAT stuff. In the same way that people love Spiderman because Peter has normal teen problems. Any story that makes Superman human, has always gotten the character right. Who cares how powerful he is. People love Thor, Hulk, Wanda & Doctor Strange who are gods in their Universe power wise. Wonder Woman had successful movies and she's pretty much billed as almost as strong as Superman.

There's also the President Lex Luthor storyline, sitting right there in this era with fascists in office.
The current Action Comics run where he is on Warworld is pretty fucking great. It's a scenario where you almost expect Superman to somewhat be lax in his morality and say "Ok this is a bleak world and we have to take some sort of violent action"-but it's awesome to see him stick to his guns and instead inspire all of the other prisoners to greatness.

Action-Comics-1043-3.jpg
 

Pomerlaw

Erarboreal
Member
Feb 25, 2018
8,598
Because they try to make Superman conflicted, dark, sad, even shitty. It's getting old.

People need hope, courage, selflessness, empathy. That is what is missing in the world and why we admire super heroes (and real heroes too).
 

Deleted member 81119

User-requested account closure
Banned
Sep 19, 2020
8,308
I don't think it's that hard either. The heart of the character is Clark Kent. A genuinely good guy trying to do what is right. That's a role mode that anyone can look up to. But instead they keep trying to make him edgy.
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,947
Super man and lois does it best. Superman is not who he is, its what he does. He is clark kent, and superman dealing with personal issues or issues people are having that he cant fix with his powers is where his drama and good stories come from. Thats what works so well with superman and lois is he has his family and he needs to be there more as a father then as superman.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,055
They only got him right on a television series only recently in S&L. Clark in Smallville was a dullard who threw people into walls and ran away before anyone saw him, and that coupled with Tom Welling's lack of acting ability made him one of the least appealing characters on his own series.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,573
Because they try to make Superman conflicted, dark, sad, even shitty. It's getting old.

People need hope, courage, selflessness, empathy. That is what is missing in the world and why we admire super heroes (and real heroes too).
You can have Superman as a beacon of humanity in an idealistic version of America.

Or you can have Superman as an immigrant who struggles to find his place in an ever increasing hostile world.

Both are valid takes in my opinion.
 

Mik317

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,793
Just have a superman who enjoys being superman and have him do cool ass superman shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
Norman, OK
I genuinely liked Man of Steel. Really, the only thing I disliked about it were the exhausting fight sequences in the third act. Like, bro- how many times do I need to watch these people throw and smash each other through walls, buildings, ceilings and floors?

But all the story beats and characters were well done by comic book movie standards, I thought.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,900
Of course. It's quite hard to make a compelling story when the hero is bland, boring and so completely OP that they had to add an allergy to some green rocks to try to add some tension.

Yeah, i'm quite the oppossite of a Superman fan. So i might be biased.
 

megashock5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,189
Powell, Ohio
If you have a reasonable producer and director who love (and aren't embarrassed) by the source material-it wouldn't be a problem.

The first half of Superman '78 is majestic and wonderfully emotional. It sadly gets a little goofy.

Superman II (The Donner Cut) is pretty good. Christopher Reeve was literal god tier casting-and Richard Donner was a genius.

Man of Steel is trash.
I agree with all of this. Keep him true to the character, don't try to modernize him by making it dark or edgy. Let him be earnest and genuinely heroic.
 

The Quentulated Mox

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Jun 10, 2022
4,609
He kicked ass in that movie. Well worth the price of admission to see some live action DBZ fights.
This is like the DC comics version of mandalorian fans saying that cgi luke doing a hallway scene on a bunch of cgi robots is what they wanted instead of TLJ luke and it's equally incomprehensible to me
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,710
Not at all, people just really overcomplicate it.

Where people get tripped up is that they think Superman needs to change. This is incorrect. What you do is keep the Superman character mostly the same as he's always been (minor tweaks notwithstanding) and have him react to the new environment.

The Donner film is basically "Superman, but now he's in the 70s!!!" and it was great.

Snyder actually had the right idea by leaning his movies into the reality of what's like to be an immigrant in modern America. "What would Superman be like if he turned up in 2013? Well the cops wouldn't trust him and the racists would hate him. Also his parents would probably tell him to keep to himself for his own protection". The problem was that Snyder didn't understand Superman/Clark's character enough to make the contrast interesting. It didn't feel like Superman in that environment, but a knock-off character in a discount Superman suit.

The recent Superman & Lois show actually covered a lot of the same material, but it feels better because they had a firmer understanding of the character.

So how do you make Superman work? Get someone who really loves/understands the character, place him in 2022 and ask "What would Superman/Clark think of all this?". The answer is your story and it would probably do pretty well.
 

Bengraven

Powered by Friendship™
Member
Oct 26, 2017
27,079
Florida
To people, Superman is safety. Comfort.

So you threaten that.

To Superman, we are his greatest weakness.

So you threaten that.

The best Superman story is the one where Superman and mankind confirm their support of each other and overcome a dangerous inside/outside threat.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,573
The reason Superman is a timeless classic character is that he can appeal to all generations. "Modernizing" him loses that appeal.
I don't necessarily agree. Superman as an icon has endured for more than 80 years because it tried to tackle relevant topics. Showing solidarity with the Civil Rights Movement, fighting the KKK and bigotry, addressing a post 9/11 America to name a few. To appeal to new generations of fans means bringing Superman to contemporary and modern society.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
The current Action Comics run where he is on Warworld is pretty fucking great. It's a scenario where you almost expect Superman to somewhat be lax in his morality and say "Ok this is a bleak world and we have to take some sort of violent action"-but it's awesome to see him stick to his guns and instead inspire all of the other prisoners to greatness.

Action-Comics-1043-3.jpg

I'm reading this run now and loving it.

"Not more, but not less either". Clark's powers don't make him Superman. His character does.

Also, people who aren't from Kypton, need to stop calling him Kal in the DC Universe. He has no connection to that name.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,324
Tampa, Fl
No. The problem is that the people in charge of the IP don't see Superman's value, and they keep hiring writers and directors who share that lack of understanding.

You have to have Superman written by idealists, not cynics. It's integral to the concept.
I agree.

Which is why I'm just going to drop these here
View: https://youtu.be/iAZ_KJfZfBQ


View: https://youtu.be/m24kwF1b6Ks

View: https://youtu.be/k9x83Cf17Z4

Superman is inspiring, Superman is an ideal we can aspire to.

He's often called the Man of Steel, the Last Sonof Krypton.

But the moniker we all seem to forget, his most important moniker is "The Man of Tomorrow"

He is a character literally designed to make us all be better people.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,441
Greater Vancouver
No more than any other movie. The problem is you have to have someone at the helm who believes that optimism and selflessness are aspirational traits in a lead character and not something to mock or deride.
 

onyx

Member
Dec 25, 2017
2,540
No, because Man of Steel exists. I'll die on this hill.

I'm on that hill with you. Man of Steel is a good moderan take on Superman.

Some people only want the Reeves Superman that acts like some holy messiah that's above all human flaws.

A MoS Superman that struggles with his place in the world and still uses his power to save people is fine too.

Superman and Lois is also good.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,723
Probably not harder than making a good movie for any other superhero. The problem is that you gotta have a director and writer (and studio, I guess) who believes in what Superman stands for and not just decides to make it a cynical take on that.

Zack Snyder was honestly just about the worst person to tackle Superman. In all his films it's abundantly clear that Snyder doesn't believe in people genuinely and selflessly trying to help people. In fact, he often portrays those people as the weakest of the bunch and that character growth is reached by becoming more selfish or you die.

Superman is someone who is supposed to be an inspiring, positive figure, a person who is a fish out of water but that people look up to nonetheless, the ultimate portrayal of positivity and goodness in man. Snyder made him a cynical asshole who doesn't really care about anyone but himself, because that's what Snyder thinks the ultimate man is (or at least, that's the idea his movies constantly reinforce) and that makes for a bad Superman movie because it directly goes against what Superman is supposed to represent.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,714
1. Take Returns
2. Make it less boring
3. let your charismatic as hell actor have some personality
Win

1. Take Man of Steel
2. give it more heart and aesthetic
3. Let your charismatic as hell actor have some personality
win


Superman fucking sucks without loads of personality and charisma,
Of the modern era,
Dean Cain Superman was perfect
STAS Superman was perfect
Hoechilin Superman is perfect
Superdad in the comics was perfect for a decent time until DC fucked around
 

Stalker

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,779
I'm a big Superman fan and I think Man of Steel was pretty average tbh. It's not offensively bad but it does nothing special and the fact it's possibly the stand out piece from the DCEU and it's still so average is telling on another level
 

Rassilon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,606
UK
I think Anson Mount's portrayal of Captain Pike proves that people are still interested in seeing the boy scout positive-to-a-fault hero.
 

Forkball

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,941
I'm not going to say it's easy to make a good Superman movie, but it's certainly not impossible. I'd definitely like to see a more light-hearted, hopeful vibe rather than the dark dark darkness that was Man of Steel. You can still have plenty of conflict, both internal and external, but people should you know, be happy when they walk out of the theatre.

Things I'd like to see for a Superman series:
+ Start young. I don't want to see 35 year old Superman.
+ I don't need to see any kid or Smallville scenes. Start with him just getting to Metropolis. Focus heavily on the challenges of moving from a small town to the big city. You know, something that's actually relatable.
+ Superman should be friendly and likable but also a bit gullible and naive. However his hopefulness perseveres in the end.
+ Have action scenes that are more creative and visually kinetic instead of just huge explosions and crashing into things. Think One Punch Man.
+ Don't finish off Luthor in the first movie. He should be more of a background player, someone Superman wants to take down but can't touch until the last film. The overarching idea of Luthor possibly running for president would also be very relevant to say the least.

I mean there's so much you could do with the character beyond making him John Cena or making him burdened by the weight of the world.
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,140
I honestly don't get those Captain America comparisons. It just doesn't make sense.

Cap is strong, but he is nowhere near as powerful as Superman. He is a good, idealistic guy being put against all kinds of foes, from weak ones to one way more powerful than him. If he turns evil, there's a shit ton of people that can put him into check. Hell, all it takes is someone to get lucky and put a bullet on his head.

Superman, however, is essentially a god. He is not going to struggle like Cap unless he is put against an equal (Zod) or a superior foe (Darkseid), or if a random mook get access to is weakness. If he turns evil, you are going to need an entire movie or a whole series to take him down.

You can't just ignore the power discrepancy between them and pretend they are the same.

It's not a matter of power levels or fighting foes. The comparison here (or lack thereof) is strictly "good, idealistic guy".

They will never be able to please everyone. Superman Returns has everything you're looking for and i found it boring as shit.

MOS is right up my alley but would have tweaked a few things. But i understand the hate as well.

I think Superman would be a great HBO series. Too bad it would be too expensive.

Knocking out a checklist is useless if the movie isn't good. The desire is to hit that checklist, but make it good. That's the problem.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
I just think they cannot make him work without issue. He ticks so many boxes that you'll bother someone somehow. Like, in Man of Steel his father lamented over whether his son should expose himself to a world that will actually reject him and people went, "Omg lol Snyder you fucking hack". Also, I think a lot of people aren't mature enough to actually discuss these things.

Like, the dude could conquer the world and when his destructive powers are shown on screen he is basically equated to terrorism. It really reminds me of the thought experiment they do in various law class: "If you are Superman, are you obligated to help?"
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,597
Returns had the right idea, but needed a couple more passes.

I think the main problem with Superman these days is that the best direction to take him may not be the most satisfying for a big audience, who probably wants bigger fights and shit (maybe I'm not giving them enough credit, Superman is enough to get them in the door and then the rest is contingent on the take being good).
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,140
I just think they cannot make him work without issue. He ticks so many boxes that you'll bother someone somehow. Like, in Man of Steel his father lamented over whether his son should expose himself to a world that will actually reject him and people went, "Omg lol Snyder you fucking hack". Also, I think a lot of people aren't mature enough to actually discuss these things.

Like, the dude could conquer the world and when his destructive powers are shown on screen he is basically equated to terrorism. It really reminds me of the thought experiment they do in various law class: "If you are Superman, are you obligated to help?"

It's not that Kevin Costner Kent was worried about Clark. It's that he suggested Clark should have, out of fear, put himself first and let a busload of kids die.


"If you are Superman, are you obligated to help?"

NO. But you help anyway. That's the whole damn point.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,032
What's been trending is how Warner Bros. has no idea what to do with Superman to make him "relevant" to modern audiences.

...I find that a load of bullshit.

Superman is timeless. I want a classic Superman story with all the classic tropes: Superman flying, saving a cat from a tree, rescuing Lois Lane from danger, the Clark Kent/Lois/Superman love triangle, going up against Lex Luthor, Brainiac, etc.

I would point out that the 1978 movie came out when America was still reeling from Vietnam and it's why the movie resonated so much with so many people.

In today's times, we need Superman to be our moral lifting, our upstanding values, to show us what it means to be better. That will never not be relevant. No more "What if Superman was bad" stories, please?

Whatever "side" Superman chooses, the other side will mock and hate him.

It's a Daily Planet vs. Daily Bugle world in 2020. JJJ would trash him. Perry White would glorify him. Millions of people would line up the same way the Fox News / CNN people do. No character will ever have universal appeal in this era we live in.
 

teruterubozu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,023
I think Superman is outdated. The whole supreme white male thing just reeks of a yesteryear hero. Homelander is the perfect cultural critique of this brand of heroism.
 

Bentendo24

Member
Feb 20, 2020
5,400
Of course not. Bryan Singer and Zac Snyder are the worst people possible to make a Superman movie and the latter still made a competent one. Get someone who actually cares about the character and it'll be incredible
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
It's not that Kevin Costner Kent was worried about Clark. It's that he suggested Clark should have, out of fear, put himself first and let a busload of kids die.


"If you are Superman, are you obligated to help?"

NO. But you help anyway. That's the whole damn point.
This is where you're pretty immature to understand. This is a man who has one child, Clark, and loves him to death. He knows the world will reject and hunt him. It is very fatherly to go, "You should not reveal yourself because this will happen". It's a very real thing to think. Like, Pa Kent doesn't just doesn''t act a sociopath and say to let them die, he laments it. Like, if my kid had super powers, yeah, I'd tell him to buckle the fuck down, the USA and other countries are super fucking crazy.

I firmly believe a lot of people cannot see any downside to "help anyway". Like, that doesn't work with every interpretation.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,632
It's hard to create a character arc for someone that is already flawless...
Which is why Zack in Man of Steel went for the "trying to find your place in this new world" route. I also enjoy a lot that film, although the tornado scene was ridiculous and the third act way too busy.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
Warner Bros. is probably more paranoid and thinking in terms of financial success in regards to Superman, but I think there is still a grain of truth to what they say. People still love Superman for idealism, especially kids, but I think there is a degree of naivety and privilege that exists in Superman stories (or at least the archetype) that make them feel dated. The idealism and earnestness is what can be timeless, but the nobel, white country farmboy being a symbol of my idealism? It rings a bit hollow to me, especially since people say he represents an immigrant story, but I don't feel it reflects that in a modern context; white-passing, raised by American, English-speaking parents. That's just my opinion though for why I loved Superman as a kid but don't care for him as I grew older, even though I still became a big fan of Captain America in the MCU for his idealism.

I think that is why there is the desire to make Superman cynical, because they don't know how to square the idealism of a country boy without coming across as naive. They don't know how to have him be goodhearted without coming across as a goody-two shoes who is basically a cop that follows all the rules, not just having a strong moral compass. They want to make him feel more worldly and give him an edge, and in the case with Snyder's Superman, it's easy to see how that impulse can go so wrong and it can be so misguided. I mean, if you think about it, Superman is supposed to be a symbol for masculinity and that is why you get takes like Snyder's about what it means to be a man, while others such as myself see a potential for a more modern, less toxic interpretation for masculinity.

I'm not a fan of comic Superman, but I assume it's something that writers have had to already think about for decades, and maybe they have found a solution, but it hasn't quite made it to the movies. I do think that the Captain America films have worked pretty well because they put an idealistic person against a world that was morally grey and challenging his world view. Even the way Spider-Man has often been portrayed, his biggest challenges in his personal life are testing him for what he believes in and pitting the things he wants against what he believes is right. Where I think that Captain America succeeds that Superman often hasn't, is that Steve starting as this skinny kid that can't even pass a physical to be enlisted in the army is like a quintessential underdog. When he sticks up for the little guy, you believe it because he was the little guy. Spider-Man is the same way since he was the nerd that got bullied before he got his powers. Superman on the other hand has always been exceptional, he was born special. He was like a rich kid that had access to the best schools and he may be a good person, but he also hasn't had to struggle, so his confidence can have an air of smugness and his altruism can have a hint of charity and pity for the less fortunate. You can't believe for a second that Superman thinks he's above others or the whole character crumbles, or at least if he has those human impulses, you have to acknowledge it as a flaw and out of character. He has to have a believable gentleness, kindness, and humility, and it might not hurt to show that it takes work to be a good person, and that for how effortless every other task is for someone like him, the hardest thing to do can be trying to make the right decision.

If you want to make a modern and believable Superman, acknowledge that for a character that is analogous for America being a world super power, one which makes the Homelander-type evil Superman comparisons/deconstructions all to easy to make, you need show that he has the power to do incredible things, but might does not make right. He may not be as burdened as Peter Parker by great power and great responsibility, but he should at least feel the weight of it since he's in a unique position, and it shouldn't be a Snyder-esque sulking about his burden to help others and a dilemma about whether he should help someone else or do something for himself, it should be that despite his morality and his ability, things aren't always that simple. At least, that is my take. That is one issue I had with Steve Rogers in the MCU, because even though they show hint of his flaws and his humanity, Steve is mostly always right, even when he's wrong. What more endearing way to portray a person with a strong moral compass than for them to admit when they are wrong and to struggle with what the right decision is instead of having scenarios almost conveniently slot into a more binary outlook of there being clear right and wrong.
 
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