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Rodney McKay

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,215
My ideas for new Tomb Raider games going forward:
  • Multiple smaller open world zones across the world (no more one large single area/zone). That's what I always loved about the older games.
  • Lesser focus on story. I've never cared all that much about Tomb Raider's story, my favorite parts have always been the gameplay, exploration, and satisfaction of solving a tricky puzzle or challenging platforming section. Not to say it should have NO story, but just make it less of a focus.
  • Bigger emphasis on puzzle solving. I still haven't played the latest game, but the first two of the reboot games sucked for puzzles. They only had them in the tiny little "Tombs" and they were only ever like one super obvious puzzle to solve. A big selling point of RotTR was more Tombs, but I was super let down that they were still just as simple.
I never got into the original games back in the day, but I LOVED the 360 Era games (Anniversary especially).
But to be fair I also really enjoyed the first reboot game, better than the Uncharted series even. I liked how it had a bigger focus on gameplay and the climbing/platforming felt less automatic than Uncharted, and I liked the Metroidvania aspects of the world (upgrading climbing equipment, fire arrows, etc).

So I wouldn't hate another game in the current series, but I just want more varied environments, and better more multistage puzzles (like whole levels revolving around one puzzle, like Anniversary had).
 

gblues

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,482
Tigard, OR
From a gameplay perspective, Shadow of the Tomb Raider solves a lot of the complaints in the OP.

The narrative, on the other hand... yikes.

"Colonial wrecking ball" is a pretty apt description.

The villain's motivation is to protect his home from white people. He had Lara's father killed because he was going to bring a ton of outsiders to Paititi. And so now he's gonna use these artifacts to Thanos white people out of existence.

So, Lara goes into white savior mode, succeeding where the natives failed, and stopping a sequence of actions that wouldn't have happened if the Crofts hadn't been involved in the first place.

I really hope SOTR is the last appearance of Trinity. They've been the low point of the entire reboot series.
 

Andi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,316
As mentioned multiple times:

Multiple Locations on different continents.
Back to the old Sound Design
Less human Combat and more against local fauna or cryptozoology creatures
Less Bow Combat, there are too many bow's out there...
More exploration and no survival gameplay
Hard, physic based platforming.


Give me sunken cities in the jungle, lost pyramids under the ice, let me explore the catacombs of Rome, Vienna or Paris.
Give me more croft mannor! Bring back the Buttler! Needs more Humor and less gore.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
I also made it clear in this thread that I am not a Tomb Raider player. I'm merely commenting on the character designs and superiority of the original. Even those that don't play Tomb Raider can instantly recognize and/or call to mind the OG design.

You can instantly recognize it because it was heavily marketed back then. Lara was plastered all over the place and they reused the same look for a couple sequels. So yeah, the "classic" look is engrained in your mind.

That doesn't make it superior.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
Yeah, I've done my best to get on with the new games, but the writing and set-piece driven design just doesn't work for me. Exploration, puzzle solving and more sparing, but meaningful combat would be a great shift.
 

Andi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,316
Oh and I would love a non realistic graphics.
I wish more games would focus on a unique style that works for their game.
I could imagine TR working great an cel-shaded game with giving the surroundings and set pieces a handpaintend concept art look.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
Lovely OP.

I like the modern outfits, especially the ones in Shadow which are the ones that look the most practical. I also like how in Shadow Lara has muscle definition. With that said, the reason people look less than favaourably at the classic outfit is because they base their opinions on the old render (understandably).

However, in-game Lara had more reasonable proportions (well, in TR 2 and 3 at least), and I think that, with minor alterations, this look would work just as well nowadays as it did yesterdays (it is timeless, as you said)

tumblr_puy75sMx3e1r95foao1_1280.jpg

To prove my point, allow me to post some of my favorite fanart, just so that people may have a better picture of how the classic outfit would look in a modern game


Lara is an icon, like Mario and Pac-Man; arguably, she's the first icon of gaming who's not a mascot, an anthropomorphic creature or the like. A fully realized character, with her hobbys (playing the harp and the piano!), passions (archeology, writing, classical music) and character traits (fierce, unflinching, sophisticated), as opposed to a caricature. However, I find the modern attempts at exploring her psyche misguided, since they force Lara to be a lesser character than she was for the sake of building her up throughout a series of games and justifying her newfound vulnerability. The supposed gains of this approach, i.e. credibility and realism, are meaningless to me, because what I found appealing about her in the first place was exactly her being so unbelievably cool, like no other human being could possibly be. Her original design was a reflection of that. When filtered through the lens of the PR machine "unbelievably cool" became "impossibly proportioned", but that had never been the point of anyone outside the marketing team. The character I saw and I admired, the character I played as and wanted to be like, is the one that the kind of fanart I post (and the occasional tasteful rendition in other official media, like the comic books run drawn by Andy Park) bring to life.

I really wish more people would be able to see the character for what it used to be, rathern than what they were made to think it was. But alas, it is nothing new that a character or piece of media, who happens to be or to be about a woman, is misconstrued for the sake of alluring a bigger audience than the one it was intended for (I'm thinking about the movie Jennifer's Body, for exampl)
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,811
I mean, it's not that hard really...Just look at Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light/Temple of Osiris and its tone and style (supernatural elements, puzzle solving, brazen heroine with cavalier attitude all without being "exploity"). Don't tell me that isn't an acceptible form of Lara while still being true to her roots.
Guardian of Light is still very sexualized, though Temple of Osiris got some improvements, like not having exaggerated proportions.

ZhpTnBC.jpg


It's better than classic Lara, for sure, but it's still not where it should be. No adventurer needs a plunging neck line and tight shorts that might as well be belts.

The problem with Reboot Lara isn't her design. She has features that allows her to be recognized despite wearing different outfits, like Classic Lara. The issue here is that she is awfully written, having the emotional range of a tea spoon.
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
Guardian of Light is still very sexualized, though Temple of Osiris got some improvements, like not having exaggerated proportions.

ZhpTnBC.jpg


It's better than classic Lara, for sure, but it's still not where it should be. No adventurer needs a plunging neck line and tight shorts that might as well be belts.

The problem with Reboot Lara isn't her design. She has features that allows her to be recognized despite wearing different outfits, like Classic Lara. The issue here is that she is awfully written, having the emotional range of a tea spoon.
At that point I felt they kept the classic outfit out of keeping the attire recognizable.

Why not:
2013 reboot Lara's design
Legends reboot Lara's personality
Original's emphasis on platforming, puzzle and exploration

Also ditch all of the Uncharted stuff (as well as Trinity), giver her her dual pistols back, and shades. Less emphasis on story and more on gameplay.
Add a dino.

...and who cares about Joana?

Edit: Or, you know, go with this above-posted art?
130aa92da21305db29892dd46bfb6edf.jpg

+ Legends/GoL/ToO personality.
 
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Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,811
At that point I felt they kept the classic outfit out of keeping the attire recognizable.

Why not:
2013 reboot Lara's design
Legends reboot Lara's personality
Original's emphasis on platforming, puzzle and exploration

Also ditch all of the Uncharted stuff (as well as Trinity), giver her her dual pistols back, and shades. Less emphasis on story and more on gameplay.
Add a dino.

...and who cares about Joana?

Edit: Or, you know, go with this above-posted art?
130aa92da21305db29892dd46bfb6edf.jpg

+ Legends/GoL/ToO personality.
That fan art is very reminiscing of Sarah Connor which is honestly the best source of inspiration the devs can draw from when designing Lara. I really like the direction they went in Shadow, Lara actually looks like she has the muscles to do all that climbing.

I would like that combination of Laras you suggested, though I would kind of mix LAU Lara's and Classic Lara's personality a little bit. LAU Lara is a tad too Disney sometimes, she could use some of Classic Lara's acid personality.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
At that point I felt they kept the classic outfit out of keeping the attire recognizable.

Why not:
2013 reboot Lara's design
Legends reboot Lara's personality
Original's emphasis on platforming, puzzle and exploration

Also ditch all of the Uncharted stuff (as well as Trinity), giver her her dual pistols back, and shades. Less emphasis on story and more on gameplay.
Add a dino.

...and who cares about Joana?

Edit: Or, you know, go with this above-posted art?
130aa92da21305db29892dd46bfb6edf.jpg

+ Legends/GoL/ToO personality.

Ironically, that's the Nevada outfit from TRIII, which goes to show that Lara's design has never been the problem
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Lara is an icon, like Mario and Pac-Man; arguably, she's the first icon of gaming who's not a mascot, an anthropomorphic creature or the like. A fully realized character, with her hobbys (playing the harp and the piano!), passions (archeology, writing, classical music) and character traits (fierce, unflinching, sophisticated), as opposed to a caricature. However, I find the modern attempts at exploring her psyche misguided, since they force Lara to be a lesser character than she was for the sake of building her up throughout a series of games and justifying her newfound vulnerability. The supposed gains of this approach, i.e. credibility and realism, are meaningless to me, because what I found appealing about her in the first place was exactly her being so unbelievably cool, like no other human being could possibly be. Her original design was a reflection of that. When filtered through the lens of the PR machine "unbelievably cool" became "impossibly proportioned", but that had never been the point of anyone outside the marketing team. The character I saw and I admired, the character I played as and wanted to be like, is the one that the kind of fanart I post (and the occasional tasteful rendition in other official media, like the comic books run drawn by Andy Park) bring to life.

I really wish more people would be able to see the character for what it used to be, rathern than what they were made to think it was. But alas, it is nothing new that a character or piece of media, who happens to be or to be about a woman, is misconstrued for the sake of alluring a bigger audience than the one it was intended for (I'm thinking about the movie Jennifer's Body, for exampl)

Firstly, Lara's design was dictated by the HW it was on and their limitations meant having to create a what the devs considered was unique enough as an identifier. The devs had to ensure that it attracted the target audience of (presumably male) teenagers and young adults given her design compared to other male protagonists at the time like say Gabe Logan of Syphon Filter or the Prince from PoP 1999.

And then, there was the games' coverage:

opmlasteverb.jpg

c08adb3ad1a28e26bca6b6610a1b1249.jpg

tumblr_noib0cb8591rfy3d2o2_1280.jpg

magazine-electronic-gaming-monthly-v10-9-of-12-tomb-raider-2-1997_9-page-1.jpg

official-s-playstation-magazine-tomb_1_c29d1d0b9301d479b1be6025dc81fdbd.jpg

I have zero love for the current rendition of Ms. Croft. And yet, I fail to see the distinction between "what she was meant to be" and "rather what they were made to think it was". It is okay to like her OG design but this just puts things into perspective. And perhaps even more so given your personal take of what Lara was "meant to be" did not jive with push back the reboot's clothing line had gotten from the "vocal" incels and excessively thirsty men- people who were evidently courted by the pubs to, presumably, ensure success of the budding franchise back in the day.
 
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dedge

Member
Sep 15, 2019
2,429
Also if you are a fan of the current reboot I suggest Underworld. It's a supremely underrated game and while it has issues I respect what it did for how long ago it came out. I'd love them to take cues from Underworld in the next iteration.
I picked up this, Anniversary, and Legend for cheap on Xbox One I need to finally get around playing them.
 
Nov 15, 2017
253
Let her be old. (relatively speaking) Like mid forties or something. Cast her as a wily veteran. Less shooty and more solvey.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,639
I'd like them to have an older Lara again. She was like 31 by the time of the last game chronologically in the old series, right? Hell, I'd even go older than that personally.

Like I put earlier in the thread, just give me a Last Revelation style story, so open with a young Lara learning the ropes, then have an event that happens there have an impact on the main, present day plot.
 

Deleted member 932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
487
Firstly, Lara's design was dictated by the HW it was on and their limitations meant having to create a what the devs considered was unique enough as an identifier. The devs had to ensure that it attracted the target audience of (presumably male) teenagers and young adults given her design compared to other male protagonists at the time like say Gabe Logan of Syphon Filter or the Prince from PoP 1999.

And then, there was the games' coverage:

opmlasteverb.jpg

c08adb3ad1a28e26bca6b6610a1b1249.jpg

tumblr_noib0cb8591rfy3d2o2_1280.jpg

magazine-electronic-gaming-monthly-v10-9-of-12-tomb-raider-2-1997_9-page-1.jpg

official-s-playstation-magazine-tomb_1_c29d1d0b9301d479b1be6025dc81fdbd.jpg

I have zero love for the current rendition of Ms. Croft. And yet, I fail to see the distinction between "what she was meant to be" and "rather what they were made to think it was". It is okay to like her OG design but this just puts things into perspective. And perhaps even more so given your personal take of what Lara was "meant to be" did not jive with push back the reboot's clothing line had gotten from the "vocal" incels and excessively thirsty men- people who were evidently courted by the pubs to, presumably, ensure success of the budding franchise back in the day.

To get an example of what I meant you just need to take a look at the post I quoted in my reply above yours. Someone mentioning that the fanart of the Nevada outfit would make for good modern outfit...while failing to realize that it was one of the original outfit that Lara wore in 1998 in TRIII.

Additionally, if I were to judge media based on its depiction by the press, I would miss a lot of stuff that has been willingly miconstrued, like the aforementioned Jennifer's Body. Your point about Lara's depiction in the magazines you posted is moot; those covers are reflective of the editor's attitude toward the character, rather than the character itself.

Clearly, you are unfamiliar with the community around the classic games, if you think it is made by "vocal incels". The community is one of the most diverse that there is, as far as bit IPs go. You'll find everyone, from kids who discover the classic titles for the fist time today, to adult who grew up with them in the 90's. Some of the most well known custom level creators for TRIV are in fact women.

In regards to the original devs, and the presumed need to sex-up Lara that they felt in order to achieve success...you are misinformed on this point as well. Firstly, Core design was well-aware of the smash hit success that TR would become, as soon as they witnessed the reactions to their E3 demo. Certainly they could not predict that one day (not that far away actually) Lara would have her own movie and would be potrayed by an academy award winner actress, but they were not oblivious to the revolutionary potential the game had either.
Secondly, many women, including Heather Gibson who was one of the most important level designers on the original titles (and actually the person who created the very first lever for the TRI prototype), were involved in the creation of the original games. It seems to me that claiming that Lara was merely a product designed to entice the male audience, and that all the positive attributes she had were mere unintentional side effects, is to discount the importance that these people had in the development of the IP. Which is not something the community is new to, unfortunately, since at the time of the SotTR release it was claimed that the writer of the reboot trilogy was the first woman to be involved in the development of the games (Heather also took care of keeping the lore of the gamed updated and provided ideas for where the sequels should go, story-wise).

You fail to see the distinction you speak of because you are yourself unwilling to see past the wall of false information that has been built around the original games, for the sake of elevating the newer ones to heights that would appear much more modest if they were to be compared with the classic TR games.

If you want to know about the development of all the TR games, I recommend this book . But unfortunately it has never been translated in English, as far as I know.

With that said, I would ask you to engage in the conversation I had started in my original post, i.e. take a look at the pics I posted and tell me: what is wrong about that design? Forget the crude implementation due to the hw constraints, or the renders made by the PR department, and focus on the design. I see nothing wrong with it, and the fact that it's become the number one excuse to bash the old games and to shoot down people's positive opinion about them is reflective of how clueless most detractors are

EDIT: the pushback you speak of came from people who had barely touched the original games. It's nothing new that people on the internet would vocally express their opinions on something they don't care about only for the sake of attacking authors and artists whose view do not coincide with their own (and happend to be on the more progressive end of the spectrum)
 
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Anomander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,469
The question is how to make the platforming sections challenging without using janky controls. The platforming in TR reboot might as well be on autopilot.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,639
Clearly, you are unfamiliar with the community around the classic games, if you think it is made by "vocal incels". The community is one of the most diverse that there is, as far as bit IPs go. You'll find everyone, from kids who discover the classic titles for the fist time today, to adult who grew up with them in the 90's. Some of the most well known custom level creators for TRIV are in fact women.

Yeah, absolutely.
No doubt they'll try to come back and say you're wrong, but this is my experience with the franchise as well. Like, if I was to ask any woman who lives near me what games they played, it's almost guaranteed that Tomb Raider would be one of the most common answers.

I'm not saying 'Tomb Raider was only a "girls game"', but it certainly wasn't solely played by 'incels', like that poster is suggesting.
 

Nephilim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,283
I think Shadow of the Tomb Raider is a great Tomb Raider game, my favourite out of the reboot series.
Give me a more refined, less janky Shadow of the Tomb Raider and you will make me happy.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,886
If it puts emphasis back on gameplay instead of story? Yes.
IMO they should put more emphasis on story, not less.
Gameplay is fine in all three modern games. Maybe it should do more with exploration and less with shooting but eh.
What they should do is avoid turning the game into a boring open world again and remember than TR is an adventure - meaning more than one location across the planet should present in each title.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
- Classic Lara must come back, look is iconic and attitude leagues better than whiney schizo crying mass murderer.

- Auto-platforming with magic walls that are only climbable if devs decide needs to die. Bring back real platforming where any appropiate height wall or ledge is climbable. Physics system to decide if you can jump far enough, not this scripted 'suddenly she can jump 3 times further than before' BS new games use.

- Bring back old level design where often the entire level was a puzzle to explore and solve. The new games have weak puzzles and are extremely linear, with the 'Tombs' being side content (Shadow had a couple on main path, but majority side missions).

- Ditch the hub-openworld, it not a real openworld design anyway, just hubs connected by thin paths, can still have huge areas to explore, but they should be levels, that way other hubs can be other environments and locations around the globe instead of being stuck in one place all game.

- Needs be puzzle-platforming game first and foremost, not a shooter. Animals and monsters should be main enemies.

- Ditch the shitty RPG elements, and have collectables be few, but in places you need explore to find, not a billion collectables you're basically tripping over as they just scattered them everywhere in plain sight.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Guessing that bullet point #1 would be "make her a one-dimensional quippy sex doll again" before opening this thread was probably the easiest guess I've ever made in my life.

That is not where the series needs to go.
Classic Lara was never sexualised in the original games. The closest thing was the TR2 ending where she literally shotguns the player and says they've seen enough.

It was actually Crystal Dynamics in their first attempt at a reboot who did this, bringing in things like bikini costumes and whatnot.

People don't want either of CD's Laras back, one was plagued by dead mommy issues, the other dead daddy issues. Seemingly this is all CD can produce to explain why Lara raids tombs. The original Lara did it because she just loved doing it and found normal life boring. Her parents were alive and well, Lara just didn't want that life.
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,877
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
I've been nodding a lot throughout the thread. Here are my own personal suggestions:
- Fewer humans. Tomb Raider is at its most boring when it's a chase to get to the treasure first. I'd rather see Lara be put in isolation, where she has to figure stuff out on her own, and isn't shooting every few minutes.
- The Metroidvania stuff works well for me. I like unlocking abilities and expanding traversal options. I'd keep it in.
- As things stand, Lara is a completely flavourless character. She's got nothing going for her, and that's gotta change. For the love of all that is holy, do not make her a sassy quip dispenser though. That's completely off the table too. I don't exactly know yet what to turn her into, but maybe she can be a callous jerk? She's already raiding ancient sites. Might as well be up-front that she's purely in it for profit and fame, right? You might think it's hard to inject a lot of iffy personality into the character at this stage, but we have the perfect solution for that...
- Age her back up. Not just to what she was before the reboot, but go even older than that. Older ladies are rare in games, especially in main roles, and we might as well reclaim her icon status by leading the charge again.
- Dinosaurs... with feathers. People will complain, but that's the type of controversy where the bickering will give you attention on social media.
- Let's drop the parent angle. It was kinda tropey back then, and it didn't become more interesting over time. Let her be her own person, rather than chasing someone else's shadow.

On the whole, I'm not even all that displeased with the current Tomb Raider. I just wish it had a lot less combat, a little more puzzles, and for Lara to be a bit less dull.
 
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StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Does she overcome these flaws in Shadow, because she sure as hell doesn't on the other two lol?
No lol.

At the start she makes a mistake that will cause mass suffering to innocent people, but 5 minutes later realises the bad guy been doing bad guy stuff elsewhere in the world for a long time so the narrative changes to "Eh, it's all his fault and we gotta stop him" and Lara only brings up her part in anything as a narrative defense for murdering the bad guy at the end.
 

Ragnorok64

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,955
You can instantly recognize it because it was heavily marketed back then. Lara was plastered all over the place and they reused the same look for a couple sequels. So yeah, the "classic" look is engrained in your mind.

That doesn't make it superior.
Classic design while simple, has large areas of distinct colors that are recognizable from a distance, Lara has a recognizable silhouette thanks to the duel pistols and holsters, and yes her physique is striking and far more memorable than reboot Lara. Granted, the design is helped by when she came about in the scheme or time, with 3D games just starting to take off on home consoles, but being first helps.

Ultimately, when you boil the designs down, Classic Lara has more striking and recognizable design components than reboot Lara. That's what makes her superior.


Most notable think I can recall about reboot Lara is that she used a bow and arrow, in a year where seemingly a bunch of other charcters were rocking bow and arrows for some reason.
 

Sharivan

Member
Dec 29, 2018
411
Belgium
No thanks, I prefer the new trilogy. I never really liked the Tomb Raider games until the reboot. I really enjoyed Shadow of the Tomb Raider (I prefer it to Uncharted 4) so I want more of the same.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,639
People also seem to forget that outside of Tomb Raider and The Last Revelation, Lara always had plenty of outfit changes throughout the games. Unless I'm forgetting something, she only has the classic outfit on the opening levels of 2, 3, and Chronicles, and outside of the goofy winter coat with hot pants combo from 2, and the catsuit from the end of Chronicles, nothing else is really sexualised at all.
 

rafiii

Member
Feb 7, 2019
498
I have been enjoying the new trilogy but I agree with everything OP wrote and added.
The new TR games didn't have to be called Tomb Raider in the first place, there is very little of TR spirit in them. More of a mix of what is popular with Tomb Raider slapped on it.
 

Foxnull

Alt-Account
Banned
May 30, 2019
1,651
Basically it should stop trying to copy Uncharted. It did its own thing back then and it was so much better.
 

Aswitch

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,125
Los Angeles, CA
There`s nothing wrong with the track the new trilogy went, it´s just a different, more modern take, in a market that screams for "cinematic experiences".
I enjoyed those games and I wouldn`t mind if the following titles continue this route. But I could also imagine a new take, less grim, less "adult", something like Breath of the Wild but with 3D-Metroidvania worldbuilding.

This. Having played the older titles, I did enjoy this re-imagining overall(haven't played shadow yet), but could see it going that way possibly. I do prefer the current format though....since I do enjoy uncharted.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
I find it weird that so many people are asking for minimal combat when that's exactly what Shadow did. The problem with Shadow isn't too much combat or even lack of puzzles; it's that it mostly replaces combat with platforming, and the platforming in the reboot trilogy is broken. There's no consistent relationship between the geometry you see and the geometry you interact with, and the controls are this weird slippery mush, and it all just feels scripted and arbitrary. What the series needs is a BotW moment where they make the act of traversing the environment fun and engaging again.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
To get an example of what I meant you just need to take a look at the post I quoted in my reply above yours. Someone mentioning that the fanart of the Nevada outfit would make for good modern outfit...while failing to realize that it was one of the original outfit that Lara wore in 1998 in TRIII.

Additionally, if I were to judge media based on its depiction by the press, I would miss a lot of stuff that has been willingly miconstrued, like the aforementioned Jennifer's Body. Your point about Lara's depiction in the magazines you posted is moot; those covers are reflective of the editor's attitude toward the character, rather than the character itself.

Clearly, you are unfamiliar with the community around the classic games, if you think it is made by "vocal incels". The community is one of the most diverse that there is, as far as bit IPs go. You'll find everyone, from kids who discover the classic titles for the fist time today, to adult who grew up with them in the 90's. Some of the most well known custom level creators for TRIV are in fact women.

In regards to the original devs, and the presumed need to sex-up Lara that they felt in order to achieve success...you are misinformed on this point as well. Firstly, Core design was well-aware of the smash hit success that TR would become, as soon as they witnessed the reactions to their E3 demo. Certainly they could not predict that one day (not that far away actually) Lara would have her own movie and would be potrayed by an academy award winner actress, but they were not oblivious to the revolutionary potential the game had either.
Secondly, many women, including Heather Gibson who was one of the most important level designers on the original titles (and actually the person who created the very first lever for the TRI prototype), were involved in the creation of the original games. It seems to me that claiming that Lara was merely a product designed to entice the male audience, and that all the positive attributes she had were mere unintentional side effects, is to discount the importance that these people had in the development of the IP. Which is not something the community is new to, unfortunately, since at the time of the SotTR release it was claimed that the writer of the reboot trilogy was the first woman to be involved in the development of the games (Heather also took care of keeping the lore of the gamed updated and provided ideas for where the sequels should go, story-wise).

You fail to see the distinction you speak of because you are yourself unwilling to see past the wall of false information that has been built around the original games, for the sake of elevating the newer ones to heights that would appear much more modest if they were to be compared with the classic TR games.

If you want to know about the development of all the TR games, I recommend this book . But unfortunately it has never been translated in English, as far as I know.

With that said, I would ask you to engage in the conversation I had started in my original post, i.e. take a look at the pics I posted and tell me: what is wrong about that design? Forget the crude implementation due to the hw constraints, or the renders made by the PR department, and focus on the design. I see nothing wrong with it, and the fact that it's become the number one excuse to bash the old games and to shoot down people's positive opinion about them is reflective of how clueless most detractors are

EDIT: the pushback you speak of came from people who had barely touched the original games. It's nothing new that people on the internet would vocally express their opinions on something they don't care about only for the sake of attacking authors and artists whose view do not coincide with their own (and happend to be on the more progressive end of the spectrum)

  • Firstly, vocal incels and vocally excessive thirsty men are minority. While they generally scarcely if ever technically represent the broader install-base of any game, it is foolhardy to believe these people were not courted by publishers regardless of whatever intent developers might have had. After all, unless there is evidence to the contrary, I can't recall seeing push back from either the devs or pubs when the editorial of magazines I provided examples of went public with their rendition of Lara.
  • Secondly, with regards to design, Lara's design is as aforementioned, iconic. But I have serious reservations about the critical thinking skills of anyone who posits that the developers and publishers did not take into account the make-up of the demographic of audience back in the mid-90s, when they wanted to make a third person action puzzle platformer featuring a female protagonist and had to figure out a design that would resonate with said audience.
  • Thirdly, your argument that criticizing OG TR games somehow does disservice to the character's design and her in-game strengths because a female developer was instrumental in the creation of the game's level is a non-sequitur.
    And on a tangent: Women are not a monolith and sometimes (in the past and at times in present) to survive in a white male dominated industry gender and ethnic minorities have had to walk on eggshells and tow the line to get along with the majority. With rise of MeToo movements we have seen just how problematic and ugly our entertainment industry (including games) has historically been and only recently people are becoming unafraid to open up. The Riot Games incident in this regard was an eye opener.
  • Fourthly, I shall repeat myself- I do NOT like the modern reboot. I tired of RotTR to the point where I had no interest in playing SotTR even when it was available on GamePass. Just because reboot's writing department was headed by a female author/writer, does not automatically grant it immunity from criticisms. The only positive aspect I have mentioned explicitly is how the developers had fairly consistently dressed Lara for the occasion in RotTR.
  • Fifthly, insofar as the OG design goes, I'd have liked it when I was a teenager (and I think I did like it then) but being in 30s now, that design to me no longer exists in vacuum.
    Does that design still have a place in a new TR game? Of course, and it all depends on the context
  • Sixthly, the last point about pushback being greater on the "more progressive end of the spectrum" - Can I get some examples?
  • Seventhly, thanks for the link to the book
  • Lastly, Lara's design sensibility will be dictated by how grounded in reality the dev team wants to make the next project as well as whether it will in Third person or Isometric. Lara is or should be character who ought not to be beholden to a singular attire (and technically she hasn't been for a while now, rather the OG attire's iconic nature makes it easy to merchandise as well as cosplay) because her sass, agility and ingenuity comes from within and not some pieces of fabric. Except the current Lara who I am not a fan of.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Isn't the sexualization talk mostly about what Core focused on rather than the design itself?
Having Lara Croft models posing at E3, doing lewd ads in magazines, etc. That wasn't neccessary. The old design itself is not really a problem as I see it, she have a thin waist and big breasts but that's hardly a crime. And she was still super cool and strong.

But in the end, the talk is unneccessary. Do we really need that old design? What's bad about the current one? With the optional outfits she can still look about the same in the new games as well.
 

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,824
That's what I was gonna say.

TR2013 felt designed more like a Ubisoft game than Uncharted.
Yeah, I really liked the "just right" size of the pseudo-open world in TR2013 too vs. modern day Ubi bloat. It'd be interesting to go back to it to see how it is. I do remember liking Rise more, but TR2013 was one of the first games of this type that I got into. Parts of it reminded me of Uncharted, but I thought TR2013 did some of those things better, like the climbing/traversal. It's been a long time though, so my memory isn't totally clear admittedly.
 

daninthemix

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,024
I kind of preferred Crystal's first trilogy (Legend Anniversary Underworld) to its second. Though it was by no means perfect, there was a lot of the original Tomb Raider spirit still present.
 

Efejota

Member
Mar 13, 2018
3,750
But what about thirsty GamerRights™ ?




Except, IRL if someone was cave diving or doing exploration of uncharted territory, they sure as shit would not be dressed like OG Lara.
Or explore a rusty underwater ship full or broken glass with her bare feet.
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More than her costume, since she changed it a lot anyways, I think what made the original Lara iconic was her face. Even if AoD is remembered as an awful game, they nailed her face there.
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Legends tried to take that face and make it look more human, but I would have been fine if they just made everyone look somewhat cartoony to match Lara's look.
I can understand why they went with realism, but I'd be down for a game looking like this again.
 
Last edited:
Oct 29, 2017
3,009
Really, people want the sex doll back? The OG Lara has as much personality as an inflatable adult toy.

New Lara has an actual personality, the games explore her development. The old Lara might be more "iconic", but her character is also two gigantic tits and a big ass.

I can't believe people want that back. The new games are part of a great wave of leaving behind the dreadful habit of objectifying women in the gaming industry by making them busty asses to look at.

The new Lara is a person, she's better off like this and the industry is too.
 

Masked Devil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
83
Agree with OP. Would like for TR to go back to the iconic look/sounds/etc that made it iconic . TR today is kinda forgettable