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GRRM "Begged" HBO To Make 10 Seasons Of GoT, Lost Confidence In D&D After Season 5
- Thread starter UltraMagnus
- Start date
You could ask me that, but I'm not aggressively arguing every one offering their perception of that moment that differs from mine that they are unequivocally wrong.
To me I don't think it matters where the disconnect and passion began to die for the series, but unlike something like Harry Potter films and LoTR movies, the cultural zeitgeist fell off a cliff and while those pieces have continued to be held up as gold standards(even if I think HP was largely average at best in the later films) by the culture, GoT the TV series has basically maintained none of that, and I have to conclude it's largely because the public at large, even if not initially, soured on the series towards its end.
People believing Martin's bullshit after years of him not delivering? He's been ducking at any chance to not finish since he wrote himself into a corner. Both Feast and Dance were a lower quality then the previous novels where everything he said he was struggling with was still left unfinished. He doesn't get a pass either for D&D low ball effort when this was initially based on the idea he was going to finish.
By the end, a lot of people were just tired. I still think they fucked up and should have done 2 full seasons. An extra 7 episodes would have help immensely.
By the end, a lot of people were just tired. I still think they fucked up and should have done 2 full seasons. An extra 7 episodes would have help immensely.
I don't know anyone who hates the show outside the Resetera bubble. Enthusiasm has naturally died down but I don't think I known anyone outside forums who hate the whole show overall.
Well, to be fair, it could be finished. I imagine it'll be after GRRM is gone and someone else does it by piecing together whatever he has written and notes and conversations and all that, but it could still happen!
Because by his own admission, throughout the course of the story he has made significant structural and characterization changes to the series while he has been writing it.
This includes things like how many novels will be in the series,
what time period the series will take place over,
whether characters are moving the plot forward or are just taking random detours;
the backstory of the world
and the timelines of events in general.
So when people say he has a detailed map of where everything and everyone is going in the last two novels (if indeed there are too more novels which Martin himself admits isn't a certainty) I know it isn't the case because we have enough material from Martin himself to know he's a highly improvisational writer, and that he will change major elements of the story as he's writing it if he thinks something else will work better.
To be clear, I am not criticizing Martin for this. I enjoy his writing, and hope he does finish ASOIAF and that it's great. However, I cannot ignore that he has a very clear pattern with the series, and the expectation the path of the series is intricately laid out in front of him and he just needs to execute on it is wholly unrealistic.
A lot of people did dislike the ending, but the "Dead in culture" is part of the Era bubble.
Again. People said the episode was universally hated. I said it wasn't. It's not. That's it.
No one is arguing the audience didn't sour on the ending. If you think I'm arguing against that then you are wrong.
GOT is going through what every show goes through despite being having a shit final season. There's just not much to talk about. Even though we are talking about it now. It was a great show that got soured due to it's final season. The show is just over with.
That said I think House of the Dragon will do just fine.
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For GRRM the problem I think is it's a mental block because the show took off and the characters became more popular than he could have imagined.
I think he's become a perfectionist and nothing is good enough so he keeps rewriting and rewriting. It's become built up into a massive thing in his head, which it kinda is.
If the show had never become a big hit, I think he would have gone on and finished the thing already.
First the stress of the show potentially catching up to him caused him to freeze up, now even worse the show's finale being feverishly panned has thrown him for an even bigger loop.
I think he's become a perfectionist and nothing is good enough so he keeps rewriting and rewriting. It's become built up into a massive thing in his head, which it kinda is.
If the show had never become a big hit, I think he would have gone on and finished the thing already.
First the stress of the show potentially catching up to him caused him to freeze up, now even worse the show's finale being feverishly panned has thrown him for an even bigger loop.
They could have not killed Stannis, actually made Euron a good character and a credible threat, not have Jaime do that weird ass Dorne quest, and introduced Aegon. I don't think George RR Martin is not without blame here, but the writers were already diverging massively. It is reasonably easy to see where the books are going to a certain degree, but because they killed off or simply wrote out a bunch of characters, they pigeon holed themselves into only being able to focus on the few remaining characters they had.
I know a lot of people personally who hate the ending and a few who say "it wasn't that bad!" I don't know anyone who said the whole show has become retroactively bad because of the ending.
Not if it's up to GRRM.
Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin rules out sharing Westeros
George R.R. Martin, the author of the epic bestselling novel series A Song of Ice and Fire, which has been adapted for television as Game of Thrones, has vowed that he will never let anyone else write a story set in the universe he created.
Lol such twisting nonsense. The gardening shit is said in comparison to a Sanderson who plots everything out and revises. Martin says categorically he has all the character's broad strokes and the ending planned and nothing he's ever said has contradicted this, which your incorrect post claimed.
The last season of this show was so bad that it retroactively made people hate a most phenomenal show.
That's a staggering accomplishment.
That's a staggering accomplishment.
I know plenty of people irl who will bring up how much they hate the final season whenever any topic related to the show or the books comes up. I can't have a conversation about any aspect of it without someone mentioning how bad it got.
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I mean the story based on what we know is not *that* complex really in the grand scheme of things.
The story is essentially the Starks as the good guys get absolutely walloped in the first half of events, but then get their revenge basically and win in the end. And you have Dany's ill-fated attempt to win the Iron Throne as the B story.
Not if it's up to GRRM.
Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin rules out sharing Westeros
George R.R. Martin, the author of the epic bestselling novel series A Song of Ice and Fire, which has been adapted for television as Game of Thrones, has vowed that he will never let anyone else write a story set in the universe he created.www.smh.com.au
I kinda wonder what is the nature of his deal with HBO. Like if HBO wanted to do "Game Of Thrones 2: Dany Strikes Back" ... is that expressly not allowed?
This is all extremely standard author stuff about a long-running series where details in a fixed, preplanned framework change or get fleshed out or excised over time, not proof that he's just writing this all by ear with no idea where he's going.
I don't think 10 seasons would have helped the show. As others have said, D&D were only really interested in adapting things up to the Red Wedding, and maybe a little bit beyond. I think replacing the showrunners was the only option.
I really think the idea that there would be backlash is overblown. Most probably didn't know or care who the showrunners were, all that mattered was the end product. If D&D didn't have such a huge ego, it could've been more of a "passing of the torch" thing rather than a "your fired" thing.
D&D clearly weren't interested in the broader themes of GRRM's work ("themes are for eighth grade book reports" after all), and that's part of why they lost interest after all the shocking moments had been exhausted.
If you care about themes/thematic resonance, character consistency, actually thoughtful/thought-provoking/well-written dialogue (as opposed to quips/one-liners), proper pacing, character development, etc., then Seasons 5-8 are terrible garbage, to put it nicely. If you care about the above, the decline in quality is extremely noticeable, and I would argue, not debatable at all if you're paying any kind of attention to these deeper things.
As someone who has never read the books, I was shocked it took the general public so long to sour on the show, given the drops in quality or complete non-existence of all of those things that make a story that would be worthy of all the praise and accolades it was getting.
If you're interested in character archetypes, grimdark atmosphere, sex and nudity, gratuitous violence/spectacle, fast-paced action, high production values, and just straight plot developments (i.e. an unexpected twist, a big "event" that occurs in the story like a battle or the end of a journey), then I can see not seeing a difference between S1 of GoT versus S8 of GoT.
There's nothing wrong with liking those things or being interested in a story for those things, but I personally don't think any of those things are what make a story good.
I think that's fundamentally what is going on when people talk about decline in quality vs. not. People are just invested in the story for different reasons. Two different audiences.
And folks doing reaction videos and tweets generally won't discuss if something makes thematic sense, is in character, if something was well-written, etc. They're just along for the thrill of it and the fun of the ride. And that's okay. But acting like those reactions are indicators of quality or general consensus on any meaningful level is just laughable.
Reviewers from the top publications generally aren't concerned with things on a deeper thematic or character level either, with them it's mainly about execution (is it well-acted? Well-directed? Is the dialogue fast and snappy?). Everything else is secondary or a bonus. And award shows aren't an indicator of objective quality either. I mean, look at the Oscars.
As to blame, D&D are entirely to blame for the show and how it ended up. GRRM, however, is to blame for handing his series over to D&D in the first place and never once thinking to ask them if they understand things on a deeper level. I mean, his deciding question was based around them guessing a "twist", not on them having any deeper understanding of the characters, what the work was trying to say, etc.
If GRRM sees his series as something important with deep things to say, maybe he shouldn't have handed it off to people who clearly were only in it for the thrill ride/adrenaline rush.
I really think the idea that there would be backlash is overblown. Most probably didn't know or care who the showrunners were, all that mattered was the end product. If D&D didn't have such a huge ego, it could've been more of a "passing of the torch" thing rather than a "your fired" thing.
D&D clearly weren't interested in the broader themes of GRRM's work ("themes are for eighth grade book reports" after all), and that's part of why they lost interest after all the shocking moments had been exhausted.
If you care about themes/thematic resonance, character consistency, actually thoughtful/thought-provoking/well-written dialogue (as opposed to quips/one-liners), proper pacing, character development, etc., then Seasons 5-8 are terrible garbage, to put it nicely. If you care about the above, the decline in quality is extremely noticeable, and I would argue, not debatable at all if you're paying any kind of attention to these deeper things.
As someone who has never read the books, I was shocked it took the general public so long to sour on the show, given the drops in quality or complete non-existence of all of those things that make a story that would be worthy of all the praise and accolades it was getting.
If you're interested in character archetypes, grimdark atmosphere, sex and nudity, gratuitous violence/spectacle, fast-paced action, high production values, and just straight plot developments (i.e. an unexpected twist, a big "event" that occurs in the story like a battle or the end of a journey), then I can see not seeing a difference between S1 of GoT versus S8 of GoT.
There's nothing wrong with liking those things or being interested in a story for those things, but I personally don't think any of those things are what make a story good.
I think that's fundamentally what is going on when people talk about decline in quality vs. not. People are just invested in the story for different reasons. Two different audiences.
And folks doing reaction videos and tweets generally won't discuss if something makes thematic sense, is in character, if something was well-written, etc. They're just along for the thrill of it and the fun of the ride. And that's okay. But acting like those reactions are indicators of quality or general consensus on any meaningful level is just laughable.
Reviewers from the top publications generally aren't concerned with things on a deeper thematic or character level either, with them it's mainly about execution (is it well-acted? Well-directed? Is the dialogue fast and snappy?). Everything else is secondary or a bonus. And award shows aren't an indicator of objective quality either. I mean, look at the Oscars.
As to blame, D&D are entirely to blame for the show and how it ended up. GRRM, however, is to blame for handing his series over to D&D in the first place and never once thinking to ask them if they understand things on a deeper level. I mean, his deciding question was based around them guessing a "twist", not on them having any deeper understanding of the characters, what the work was trying to say, etc.
If GRRM sees his series as something important with deep things to say, maybe he shouldn't have handed it off to people who clearly were only in it for the thrill ride/adrenaline rush.
Everything else aside, I do believe Martin. In hindsight, the stories about the showrunners never actually caring that much about the show itself feels true to be honest. A lot of the stuff cut from the books or done in a sloppy manner was the kind of "high fantasy" and "mythology" stuff that the show's producers openly scoff at and consider uninteresting.
Once they ran out of book material, the crutch they were heavily leaning on ceased to exist and things steadily went downhill - long before season 8.
Once they ran out of book material, the crutch they were heavily leaning on ceased to exist and things steadily went downhill - long before season 8.
What does being "dead in culture" have to do with how people view the quality of the show? That's two difference things. GoT has very little cultural relevance in 2021, and people have largely moved on with most of the discussion about it centered on 'what went wrong at the end'. Part of that is, of course, just the culture at large where entertainment moves so fast and has so much content that it's hard for something to be part of the discussion for extended periods. Maybe the prequel will be very successful and kind of reinstate that, though. But it's lack of cultural relevance at this point isn't some ERA bubble thing, it's something you can easily see. I think some of you are a little too in love with just randomly dismissing everything as part of the mystical 'ERA bubble' lol.
Not if it's up to GRRM.
Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin rules out sharing Westeros
George R.R. Martin, the author of the epic bestselling novel series A Song of Ice and Fire, which has been adapted for television as Game of Thrones, has vowed that he will never let anyone else write a story set in the universe he created.
Eventually, someone is going to offer a big enough check to change someone's mind down the road. It'll happen, even if it's years down the road and done as part of a big nostalgia play.
Could be a similar deal that Rowling has with Potter in that WB can largely do whatever they want, but GRRM has to sign off on it. But we'll probably never know for sure unless GRRM spills the beans.
I don't think that it the story in the book at all. There is zero chance Arya gets through the series unscathed, same with Sansa really. Jon is going to be mentally damaged and an emotional wreck. Bran and maybe Rickon are probably the only ones who are going to come out alright in the books.
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I don't think it'll be that much different if I'm being honest. That was George's ending ... just told on super fast forward with no nuance.
Rickon is totally gonna get killed too, heh. Bran needs to be the defacto king. Arya is totally going to "become the mythical legend that travels West of Westeroes for more adventures" thing.
And while all of my friends that watched GoT were either HP fans, or LOTR fans, NONE of them are going back and watching GoT and we all clown on it.
While all of them still talk fondly of HP or LoTR media.
Which is largely how I see the public writ large.
While those franchises following burned brighter as they were happening, the affection is still heavily pronounced, while GoT has enjoyed none of that that I can see.
To me GoT is more analogous to The Walking Dead. A show that similarily caught the zeitgeist buts flame burned out slowly and has kept going. With an audience a fraction of what it was.
Not if it's up to GRRM.
Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin rules out sharing Westeros
George R.R. Martin, the author of the epic bestselling novel series A Song of Ice and Fire, which has been adapted for television as Game of Thrones, has vowed that he will never let anyone else write a story set in the universe he created.
He say a lot of things, though (see posts above). If there was a writer friend that he trusted to transcribe his vision, I think he would authorize that.
I have always said that the TV show adaptation was the definition of a Faustian bargain for GRRM. He made money off it and became super famous in mainstream culture. But it seems like it ruined his focus and may have greatly contributed to his own writing grinding to a halt. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if it ruined his enjoyment of his own creation - I don't like speculation on someone's inner workings but the man has gone off in a ton of directions and projects that have nothing to do with ASOIAF.
It was vaguely the ending of the books, but because of the laser focus on very specific characters, they had to shoehorn characters into roles they aren't in the books. Cersei for instance won't be the one holding Kings Landing at the end, it will be one of three other characters who they didn't bother doing anything with. And Rickon could very well die, but it won't be until much later obviously since he isn't even at Winterfell.
My point being, the books are no longer about the Starks. But the tv series made it about the Starks, thus why you have Jon doing Stannis role, or Sansa being at Winterfell, or Arya killing Freys.
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This is not really normal for fantasy franchises though ... has there ever been a fantasy world as deep as GoT and as popular as GoT that ever just basically vanished from the public sphere so rapidly?
Walking Dead is really just ... zombies and different gangs of people being more and more ruthless to each other, there's not really much else for the story to hang on especially when you kill most of the characters people liked.
Star Trek, Star Wars, DC, MCU, Harry Potter, etc. etc. still have large demand for those properties even after fairly large missteps at times in the IP. GoT is more comparable to that.
Sorry it's true.
His plans for the story has changed several times as he's written it, is almost certainly still changing as he writes the final few volumes in the series. He's probably even being impacted by the reception to the show's ending.
He just doesn't have this master plan you think he does, which is why it's been a decade since he's released a book.
Funny, Cersei is possibly the only character I feel wasn't completely butchered. At least compared to the rest.
Not that this would excuse them in any way but it's not even true. Can we stop repeating this falsehood? They decided on the Sansa/Ramsay change since season 2, the interview saying so was posted repeatedly in the thread.
I know it contradicts the "it's GRRM's fault for not providing material" narrative, though.
I'm not sure that's a great argument. I'd rather have an unfinished story that is good so far, than a finished story that is garbage.
Like, I'm not happy about ASoIaF being unfinished, but I'm still glad I read the books, and would still recommend them. They're still worth reading even as an unfinished story. On the other hand I wouldn't recommend the show at all.
Hear hear
I actually really loved the Winterfell vs Walkers episode, and a lot of the final. But a lot of that is because Sapochnik was the best director in the series and everything he touched was golden.
The writing was the problem, and it was evident the showrunners wanted fucking out and fast. Like, the writing was on the wall that Danaerys would be pushed to a breaking and eventually expose her more tyrannical side as the series progressed. But the fast tracking of her character development really mangled the final delivery, even if it "made sense" as an arc. Same could be said for a large volume of narrative beats.
The writing was the problem, and it was evident the showrunners wanted fucking out and fast. Like, the writing was on the wall that Danaerys would be pushed to a breaking and eventually expose her more tyrannical side as the series progressed. But the fast tracking of her character development really mangled the final delivery, even if it "made sense" as an arc. Same could be said for a large volume of narrative beats.
Speaking of Jon, I think it's going to turn out a lot worse for him in the books. He's dead. And by the time we get to him in Winds he may have been dead for quite some time. He may well be resurrected the same way in the books, but the result won't be the same. Martin, in the books, has been pretty explicitly clear that you won't come back the same when you're brought back from death. Jon will have some serious psychological issues when he comes back, and he may not wholly be himself.
The show just kind of forgot that he came back from the dead, aside from an off handed mention when he meets Dany.
Not really, and that's why I find the people that claim it's just the normal cooling down after an event series is over to be so obviously wrong to me.
Yes, there is something very Faustian about it- that is a good way of putting it. I do wonder how things would be if he had waited to finish before adapting, or if such a thing (finishing) was/is even possible.
Oh for sure. Everyone else who has come back from the dead has been a broken husk of a person, whether it be Beric or Uncat. I also believe that Melisandra will burn Stannis' daughter to bring him back, and I imagine if that happens, Jon wouldn't be too happy about that either.
The books are great, but I couldn't recommend them at all knowing that they're unfinished and almost certainly never will be. If GRRM had problems with how D+D completed his story, then he had a solution at hand. Him blaming them for finishing his story when he won't seems deeply unfair, even if I am in total agreement about how shit the ending was.
Totally incorrect, and they in fact say the opposite.
They considered pairing Sansa and Ramsay in Season 2, but said staying faithful to the books (where the characters don't meet) made it unworkable.
But once there wasn't book material to faithful to anymore, they were free to pair the characters up.
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'Game of Thrones' team explains changing Sansa's story from the books
Showrunners talk about that huge twist—that was very different from the books
Basically, they ran out of Vale of Arryn material for Sansa, and since Turner was a major character they needed to consolidate her scenes with someone else, and were free to send her to Winterfell and engage in the entire awful subplot.
I think they could have wrapped the story up in two series. Daenreys could have invaded King Landing's in series 7 and people probably would have found it less rushed. It's the writing choices more than how many episodes they had.
No it isn't true. You said GRRM doesn't have an ending detailed for the series, and then when called out to explain why you'd think that when everything points to the contrary you said because GRRM says it and tried to bend GRRM quotes regarding his writing and plotting style to fit your purpose. GRRM has been asked many times and has consistently answered that he knows how the series finishes, how all the main character arcs finish and their outlines.
That you know GRRM doesn't know the ending because he said so is direct nonsense.
I would have liked if they took a detour here and Sansa and Theon killed Ramsay before he tries to rape her, then they escape. The Battle of the Bastards would have been different with Roose leading the boltons instead of Ramsay, but it could have still been a great episode. I always felt Roose was too smart to let Ramsay betray and kill him anyway.Totally incorrect, and they in fact say the opposite.
They considered pairing Sansa and Ramsay it in Season 2, but said staying faithful to the books (where the characters don't meet) made it unworkable.
But once there wasn't book material to faithful to anymore, they were free to pair the characters up.
'Game of Thrones' team explains changing Sansa's story from the books
Showrunners talk about that huge twist—that was very different from the booksew.com
Basically, they ran out of Vale of Arryn material for Sansa, and since Turner was a major character they needed to consolidate her scenes with someone else, and were free to send her to Winterfell and engage in the entire awful subplot.
Probably because Cersei is herself a character defined by her own stupidity and misogyny. More difficult to write intelligent characters when you... aren't.
Sort of like it's impossible to explore a series' core themes when you think they're for eighth grade book reports and so haven't spent any time thinking about them.
With regard to Cersei, it also helped that she just stood on some battlements with no lines looking smug for like 90% of S8.
Look I went through this whole process myself as an ASOIAF fan, I get it.
But that was like 7 or 8 years ago when the fact that the Winds of Winter still hadn't been released (to say nothing of A Dream of Spring, which hasn't even been started even in 2021), didn't seem so concerning and it was easier to believe whatever was holding the book up was some sort of technical or temporary impediment, and that the broad plan for the series was still on track.
It's been over a decade. The show has come and gone. Martin is doing other stuff now. You need to accept he probably doesn't know how to finish these books, and that he may never finish them. What we got, I think, was pretty good (I'm talking the novels here, not the show) but sometimes life disappoints you.
Would have definitely been more thematically interesting; Ramsay is undone by those he underestimates, people he thinks are weak or under his control. Instead he just loses a battle to Jon and Sansa executes him once Jon is done with him.
This is why I don't buy the excuse of running out of source material. Sansa is not on the Vale as a vacation in the books, that is where the character is being developed along with the political landscape of the region and littlefinger's plots. Any decent showrunner would have picked up that thread and went with it, try to see where it could lead, explore it's possibilities.Totally incorrect, and they in fact say the opposite.
They considered pairing Sansa and Ramsay in Season 2, but said staying faithful to the books (where the characters don't meet) made it unworkable.
But once there wasn't book material to faithful to anymore, they were free to pair the characters up.
'Game of Thrones' team explains changing Sansa's story from the books
Showrunners talk about that huge twist—that was very different from the books
Basically, they ran out of Vale of Arryn material for Sansa, and since Turner was a major character they needed to consolidate her scenes with someone else, and were free to send her to Winterfell and engage in the entire awful subplot.
Instead D&D's decision was to immediately cut it short, throw the character's development in the trash and send Sansa back to winterfell in a barely disguised reboot of her arc in kingslanding but edgier and more rushed.
Nothing I've said is incorrect and you haven't refuted anything I said.
They toyed with the idea of pairing Sansa with Ramsay as early as S2. This is true, and they say as much.
Then, when S5 came along, they admit that "staying faithful was too hard" (the quote is in reference to the "current season" which was S5 at the time), so they fell back on their early idea from S2, because they thought Sansa being raped was a "big dramatic moment for a lead character". They also "loved the book subplot" with Jeyne Poole, apparently. Like great choice of word here. They sure love the drama of young girls being raped. It's titillating to them. Much like they love the shock value of the Red Wedding and all that jazz, they salivated over it, to the point of adding a pregnant Talysa being viciously stabbed in the belly in there (when Robb's wife Jeyne Westerling isn't even at the Red Wedding and still lives).
They're misogynistic hacks. Fuck them.
Exactly
This still renders Littlefinger incompetent because of his incoherent plan to give away Sansa to the Boltons.
If Sansa's arc is to learn to play the Game and then rescue Winterfell with the Knights of the Vale, then they had two options to accomplish that.
1. Have her learn to play the Game in the Vale, politic and win over the Vale Lords with some sort of adaptation of the Winds preview chapters, and swoop in to save the day in Winterfell
or
2. Have her get raped in Winterfell, beg Littlefinger for help, not tell Jon about said help being on the way, and then save the day in Winterfell
Both of these would involve some original writing since both versions are past the point of the books. But they chose the latter for reasons. They seemed to want her to get raped and tormented to justify throwing her into the northern plot involving the Boltons, even though it could be accomplished without it.
They could have still had the battle of the bastards, and they could have also kept the actual reason why Jon got killed by the NW, while still allowing Sansa to complete the Vale arc being laid out in the books.
I honestly wouldn't be opposed to giving Cogman and other creative sorts the keys to redoing the seventh and eighth seasons outright. Pie in the sky and all, but Benioff and Weiss really should have just. Effing. Quit without nuking the show itself.
Why would they explore the political landscape of a region they had no material for? Of course they're going to consolidate their characters and locations. Fewer sets, easier production schedule, more interaction between their key cast.
They couldn't do their rape fantasies for Sansa earlier than Season 5 (when the show caught up and passed the books) because the source material made it too hard. Once that wasn't a problem anymore, they got to do what they wanted.
I mean if the source material was no constraint and they were determined to do their gross little rape plot regardless, they could have just sent Sansa straight to Winterfell from King's Landing. But that was during Season 4 when there was still a chance Martin would have finished Winds of Winter by Season 5. Once that was out the window, they just dumped the Vale.
Not just murdered, but repeatedly stabbed in the womb for the utmost gross shock value. Sick shit.
The more I think about D&D's sensibilities, the angrier I get tbh. Wasn't just misogyny either, the show implemented a ton of homophobia, and made some racist choices as well. Just remembered I wrote a post listing a lot of the examples a couple years back.
I have no idea how people are still defending them and their garbage tier writing. "But they were just helpless adapters who never thought they'd have to write anything!" The fuckers had writing credits -- but no writers room -- and were making stuff up from the beginning.
Yeah I edited it before you replied actually. Like, I forgave it at the time because a) I hated Talysa so good riddance (lol) and b) it was the RW so at least this time it doesn't look out of place... but when you consider everything else about these clowns, well...
And yeah you're entirely correct about the homophobia too. I remember this standing out as early as S1 with Loras and Renly being turned into stereotypes. Renly going "ew blood!" was 🙄
You might be making some assumptions about this supposed fairly detailed end game or outline they had. No one knows how much they knew in detail. GRRM will be the first to tell you he's no architect. Knowing Bran ends up king in the end cause he helps stop the WWs is very different from reading all the twists and turns and development and dialogue and all the intimate interweaving with different characters/storylines that leads up to it.
Knowing that Cat and Rob are gonna die at a wedding is very different from knowing all the steps that led to it. If D&D had tried to build up to the RW on their own without the detail of the books to guide them and/or help steer them from bad decisions(such as pairing Sansa and Ramsay earlier in the story) I think we could all agree that that shit would very likely have been crap compared to what we got.
This is my own personal take here but I feel they probably expected the books to reignite their passion with the story, without another cool RW type event to look forward to they just stopped caring and did their own thing until they could finally end it all at 70 odd episodes like they said they always would.(they said they always wanted 7 seasons) Just knowing the pure facts of the ending, "Dany bad", "Bran King" etc probably wasn't doing it for them.
I can fault them for rushing the story and their own poor storytelling decisions like cutting out characters/storylines even earlier on. I can also fault GRRM for not doing his part in providing material to fully adapt. The show is an adaptation of books, not an adaptation of outlines and notes, that's not what anyone signed up for going in, it will never be the same thing.
There's also the matter of D&D never liking the more overt magical aspects of the series from the start. Having D&D adapt was a poisoned fruit in that regard as the magic would only become more and more prominent with the WWs looming.
Let's take this line of discussion to the end. If GRRM had gotten the books out on time do I think the show would have succeeded in the end? I guess it would have been better but the cuts they made early on would have come home to roost either way. Feast and Dance were always going to get cut up and they would have to face the consequences of it.
I think part of the disconnect here is the assumption that if the Ds didn't rush it it would have turned out "fine". My feeling is that they had nothing left in the tank, they didn't have the chops to write more or flesh it out and lacked the passion to push through and figure it out. Two more seasons could have been meandering bullshit nonsense cause D&D didn't know what the fuck they were doing with that massive beast of a story(and GRRM himself has seemingly lost control of it in his own way) on their own and a part of them might have realized it and knew the jig was up. Would the audience have still ate up meandering bullshit? Who knows. The right thing for them to do would have been to hand it over once their passion was gone but yes their egos got in the way, in their minds it had to be THEM who ended it on their terms and no one elses.
One of the best case scenarios was more seasons with the books finished. (again I think Feast and Dance are cut up no matter what) We ended up with one of the worst case scenarios lol