Forbes: ‘Avengers’ Can Teach ‘Destiny 2’ A Few Things About Battle Passes

[Dreams-Visions]

I mean, sure, I can get behind a battle pass that doesn't expire if that's something people want, but this makes more sense in Avengers, as each pass is locked to a single character. Battle passes in Destiny are shared between all of your characters. Not an apples to apples comparison by any means. And in their model, it is really necessary to adopt this approach because there are so many characters. It's in their best financial interests to allow players to play battle pass content whenever because otherwise people would be discouraged from buying more passes.

Rolling season passes that pay for the next after finishing the current season's would only work in Destiny if they decoupled the season pass from the big seasonal expansion purchase and made that a separate, additional purchase. Since seasons are only $10 in the first place (the entire cost of your average game's battle pass) while providing significantly more than just a battle pass worth of items in content, I guess that would look like a return their previous yearly expansion pricing ($50 minimum?) and then another $10 for each season pass (but if you reach max pass level, the next season pass unlocks for free). Eh, idunno if that would go over as well as Paul is suggesting. Not finishing a season pass becomes very expensive as you have to drop another $10 for the next pass one you want while regular players get it for free. I'm not sure how that decreases FOMO at all.

Finally, Paul should know the battle pass in Destiny 2 is fundamentally different than those in other games. In other games, the Battle Pass is the point of the purchase. This understanding is fundamental for this discussion, as it is completely different in Destiny 2. In Destiny 2, you buy into a season for the seasonal content: whatever weapons, story progression, raids, dungeons, and game modes that will be available for that season. The battle pass is just a throw-in extra; not the primary reason for purchase. If the season pass disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't really matter because it's not why people drop $10 every few months in Destiny 2. So yea, while it would be cool if the skins that come up later in the pass could be earned whenever you can get to them, this isn't any sort of apples to apples comparison. Very different games, very different character systems, very different amounts of content provided by season passes and battle passes.

 

[Klyka]

Everything sounds good except the progression being tied to these weeklies/dailies. Just let me progress the pass naturally by playing the game the way I want to play. These passes are something that should reward you over time for constantly playing, I don't want to do these silly challenges and then be done for the day until they reset. Let me binge and reward me for doing so!

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That leads to stuff like in Destiny 2 though where if you don't endlessly and always do bounties, you basically "do it wrong".
it also means they need to make it extra grindy which will upset the casual audience

 

[Arkestry]

Everything sounds good except the progression being tied to these weeklies/dailies. Just let me progress the pass naturally by playing the game the way I want to play. These passes are something that should reward you over time for constantly playing, I don't want to do these silly challenges and then be done for the day until they reset. Let me binge and reward me for doing so!

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The issue with that is you're incentivising grinding rather than people just playing a couple of missions a day and still feeling like they're making progress.

 

[Spiderman]

Battle passes ain't worth shit if your game is shallow. I'm really interested in Avengers but with only 20 missions it's not worth full price.

I'm dumb.

 

[Arkestry]

Battle passes ain't worth shit if your game is shallow. I'm really interested in Avengers but with only 20 missions it's not worth full price.

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Where are you getting 20 from? They've said there's 80.

 

[Deleted member 76539]

Battle passes ain't worth shit if your game is shallow. I'm really interested in Avengers but with only 20 missions it's not worth full price.

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There's 80 missions in the full game.

 

[Spiderman]

I really saw an ad that said 20 missions lol. Sorry guys.

But that's a buy on release for sure.

 

[Yippiekai]

Battle passes ain't worth shit if your game is shallow. I'm really interested in Avengers but with only 20 missions it's not worth full price.

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The 20 missions were the ones in the beta.
There are more than 80 missions in the final game.

 

[Deleted member 76539]

I really saw an ad that said 20 missions lol. Sorry guys.

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I'm pretty sure that was for the beta in which there were 20 missions available, I can see why that'd be confusing though lol. Rarely see ads like that for a beta but evidently they were quite proud of how much there was to do in it.

 

[Deleted member 2172]

That leads to stuff like in Destiny 2 though where if you don't endlessly and always do bounties, you basically "do it wrong".
it also means they need to make it extra grindy which will upset the casual audience

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The issue with that is you're incentivising grinding rather than people just playing a couple of missions a day and still feeling like they're making progress.

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Then why not both? Have the challenges but also reward points for completing missions, with maybe more points given the higher difficulty you go. A battle pass that just stops progressing after completing some objectives a day really is a terrible idea in my book.

 

[Klyka]

Battle passes ain't worth shit if your game is shallow. I'm really interested in Avengers but with only 20 missions it's not worth full price.

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I feel like I have seen you post this before and I still do not understand why you think this?
The game has 80+ warzones/dropzones + the campaign missions on top

 

[ps3ud0]

Never been sold on something that's just a less shit version of another.

ps3ud0 8)

 

[Grimmy11]

I guess we'll have to see when the games out things like how long it takes to complete a battle pass, how frequently missions and characters are added and how long the game is supported for.

As it is this model doesn't sound bad to me, The battle passes for the main roster are included with the game, it seems like it'll have a proper set of campaign missions if people just want to play the campaign and drop it.

With the DLC characters and missions the way I see it they could charge for the new heroes (Which would probably be £6-£10 each) bundle them up and sell a big dlc pack like games like the Division and Destiny do (which cost almost as much as a new game) or do it the way they're doing it. I'd much rather they give you the characters and missions for free and have a optional non expiring battle pass of cosmetic items. That if you finish gives you the credits back for the next one.

 

[Musubi]

In the beta, each level of the card was 5 points

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So then like 7 tiers a week then. Which if that's the case isnt too bad assuming the cards are still like 40 tiers.

 

[Deleted member 76539]

Then why not both? Have the challenges but also reward points for completing missions, with maybe more points given the higher difficulty you go. A battle pass that just stops progressing after completing some objectives a day really is a terrible idea in my book.

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Personally, as someone whose brain falls HARD for fomo (too hard as it's something I've had to cut out of my life) I'd always feel behind if I didn't keep grinding. I'd always feel like I'd need to play more and if I wasn't I was going to be "left behind".

This is of course just my particular mental hangup but a pass with a specific limit where I can close it and say "done for the day" feels much better.

 

[Klyka]

Never been sold on something that's just a less shit version of another.

ps3ud0 8)

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I will never not laugh at you being the only person on this entire forum who signs their posts

 

[Spiderman]

I feel like I have seen you post this before and I still do not understand why you think this?
The game has 80+ warzones/dropzones + the campaign missions on top

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See my previous posts! I really thought the full game only had 20 missions because I saw this on an ad. Apparently there are 80+ missions in the full game and that changes my opinion completely.

 

[Klyka]

So then like 7 tiers a week then. Which if that's the case isnt too bad assuming the cards are still like 40 tiers.

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It was 3 points per daily and 11 per weekly
22 per week = 4 levels
6 per day = 42 per week = 8 levels
so 12 levels a week

 

[Lowrys]

What's sad is that this entire system, and others like it, has really nothing to do with gameplay, it's solely about maximising "engagement" and making as much money as possible.

 

[Deleted member 2172]

Personally, as someone whose brain falls HARD for fomo (too hard as it's something I've had to cut out of my life) I'd always feel behind if I didn't keep grinding. I'd always feel like I'd need to play more and if I wasn't I was going to be "left behind".

This is of course just my particular mental hangup but a pass with a specific limit where I can close it and say "done for the day" feels much better.

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I understand that, but these passes dont expire. There's no way of getting truly left behind.

It just doesn't sit well with me. Especially when you can buy tiers with real money, which poses this in an even worse light now that I think about it.
"Do your challenges and wait for the reset, or pay up"

Atleast in other games if I miss a days worth of challenges I know I can just play normally to naturally earn my way back up if I feel like it.

 

[Mandalorian]

This isnt really new though. At the start of the generation, Forza 5 got a load of shit for hiding some of the most sought after cars behind extremely lengthy grinds. Star Wars Battlefront 2 was also guilty of this (among many other monetization sins) with forcing players to grind hundreds of hours unlock characters like Darth Vader, and that's without spending the currency on a single lootbox. No fomo involved, just a calculated grind intended to sell "shortcuts" to those who want the coolest things.

So I'm not really convinced that the argument that "If you're committed enough you wont have to spend a penny" is a good one. It's kind of shocking to me how normalised this has become over the course of this generation.

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It's kinda shocking to me how people expect stuff like Overwatch, Destiny and etc can sustain themselves without a subscription (which I wouldn't go for) or a monetization system like this one, which seems completely fair to me.

I guess we'll have to see when the games out things like how long it takes to complete a battle pass, how frequently missions and characters are added and how long the game is supported for.

As it is this model doesn't sound bad to me, The battle passes for the main roster are included with the game, it seems like it'll have a proper set of campaign missions if people just want to play the campaign and drop it.

With the DLC characters and missions the way I see it they could charge for the new heroes (Which would probably be £6-£10 each) bundle them up and sell a big dlc pack like games like the Division and Destiny do (which cost almost as much as a new game) or do it the way they're doing it. I'd much rather they give you the characters and missions for free and have a optional non expiring battle pass of cosmetic items. That if you finish gives you the credits back for the next one.

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I'm not sure if it's the wording or I'm not getting what you mean, but I have the impression you are saying we'll have to pay for the new characters after launch. That's wrong and they've been saying since day one:

All DLC characters are free. We don't have to pay with real money or game credits to play with them. We can buy their battle passes with game credits or real money, but all we get is cosmetic changes and emotes.

With Street Fighter V, you can grind for the dlc characters or you can buy them. Marvel's Avengers is getting us new DLC characters with missions, raid-like content and likely story campaign events for free, with us having to pay only for cosmetics. I think it's similar to the Overwatch's current system and completely fair to me.

 

[Klyka]

I understand that, but these passes dont expire. There's no way of getting truly left behind.

It just doesn't sit well with me. Especially when you can buy tiers with real money, which poses this in an even worse light now that I think about it.
"Do your challenges and wait for the reset, or pay up"

Atleast in other games if I miss a days worth of challenges I know I can just play normally to naturally earn my way back up if I feel like it.

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how do you earn your way back up if you are never behind?
that's literally just on you going "the maximum efficiency means I can be done at THIS date" and if you miss that date you feel you "lost out".
that's entirely on you yourself

 

[Zelas]

Some nice things doesnt take away from the overall failure brought on by a battle pass per character. Allowing more than one player to use the same character would alleviate the issue. Otherwise you're going to dump money into a character that you will often be forced to not play.

 

[Grimmy11]

I'm not sure if it's the wording or I'm not getting what you mean, but I have the impression you are saying we'll have to pay for the new characters after launch. That's wrong and they've been saying since day one:

All DLC characters are free. We don't have to pay with real money or game credits to play with them. We can buy their battle passes with game credits or real money, but all we get is cosmetic changes and emotes.

With Street Fighter V, you can grind for the dlc characters or you can buy them. Marvel's Avengers is getting us new DLC characters with missions, raid-like content and likely story campaign events for free, with us having to pay only for cosmetics. I think it's similar to the Overwatch's current system and completely fair to me.

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Sorry it was my bad wording. I was saying I prefer the way they're doing it with the characters being free. The alternative would be paying close to the price of the optional battle pass to get access to the character at all.

 

[Deleted member 2172]

how do you earn your way back up if you are never behind?
that's literally just on you going "the maximum efficiency means I can be done at THIS date" and if you miss that date you feel you "lost out".
that's entirely on you yourself

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I mean I don't disagree with that, but if that really is the case then why bother locking it behind these challenges?
If you are never truly behind, then let people progress it through more than 2 avenues (those being limited challenges per day or $$$). Its unnecessary.

I feel like I need to remind folks here that this is cosmetic rewards only. Gatekeeping that is even more strange of an idea?

 

[Klyka]

Some nice things doesnt take away from the overall failure brought on by a battle pass per character. Allowing more than one player to use the same character would alleviate the issue. Otherwise you're going to dump money into a character that you will often be forced to not play.

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Matchmaking works by choosing your character first and then being matchmade into a group without that hero.
So you will never be forced to play anyone.
You are also never forced to pay for any battlepass, especially not if you don't like that hero.

I mean I don't disagree with that, but if that really is the case then why bother locking it behind these challenges?
If you are never truly behind, then let people progress it through more than 2 avenues (those being limited challenges per day or $$$). Its unnecessary.

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I mean,if they added a pure grind option then the challenge option would instantly be moot to have

 

[Zelas]

Matchmaking works by choosing your character first and then being matchmade into a group without that hero.
So you will never be forced to play anyone.
You are also never forced to pay for any battlepass, especially not if you don't like that hero.



I mean,if they added a pure grind option then the challenge option would instantly be moot to have

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That only applies to randoms and based on the beta experience, will have a shitty time with matchmaking. But many people have multiple groups of friends who are likely interested in the same characters. Unless for some reason you think a Hawkeye is just as popular as Spider-man, there will be instances when you will choose another character to let someone else play the one you purchased a battle pass for.

 

[Deleted member 2254]

A lot of games start without predatory MTXs and apparently customer-friendly progression systems. We'll see how Avengers fares in some months.

 

[TheGhost]

Matchmaking works by choosing your character first and then being matchmade into a group without that hero.
So you will never be forced to play anyone.
You are also never forced to pay for any battlepass, especially not if you don't like that hero.

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but you will be forced to use a different character because every time a new character comes out people will want to use them. So you will never match quickly until someone gets fed up and switches to a character that's been out for months.

they need to allow duplicate characters

 

[gozu]

You know what we need? A rational process to judge a gaas's "scumminess". (or cost)

How much does playing the game cost per year if:

1. You get ALL the DLC available for all chars (all skins, cool weapons, horses, hats, etc.). You = king of DLC. A bona fide whale.
2. You get ALL non-cosmetic DLC only (new characters, weapons that are better than normal ones, new maps, etc.)

To play Street Fighter V, Option #2 costs $210 over 5 years, aka $42/year, aka $3.50/month. That's a solid deal. (includes $60 + $30/year roughly. I ended up spending about $170 to have all the chars, and I spent an additional $40 on songs and costumes, stages, etc.)

Not sure what SFV option #1 costs, but I assume over $600 if you bought stages, songs, costumes as they came out.

To play FFXIV: After a ton of free content, option #2 is $13/month in subscription fees. That's almost quadruple SFV but maybe it's worth it.

How much does option #2 cost in Destiny 2?

How much does option # cost in Avengers?

The important thing is to give actual dollar figures. An actual monthly cost to play the game we can all compare to the money we spent on arcades or whatever.

 

[Mandalorian]

That only applies to randoms and based on the beta experience, will have a shitty time with matchmaking. But many people have multiple groups of friends who are likely interested in the same characters. Unless for some reason you think a Hawkeye is just as popular as Spider-man, there will be instances when you will choose another character to let someone else play the one you purchased a battle pass for.

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Matchmaking was improved one hell lot on both PC and PS4 Pro from my own personal experience last weekend. And while that worked great, the real powerful experience for this game is to find among your group of friends to play this together. That's when the game really shines, imho. I got to matchmake with some cool randoms and surprisingly no kids, but nothing compares when you play this thing with people that you know and are good enough to play at higher difficulties.

 

[Klyka]

but you will be forced to use a different character because every time a new character comes out people will want to use them. So you will never match quickly until someone gets fed up and switches to a character that's been out for months.

they need to allow duplicate characters

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Then you play with AI ;)

 

[Deleted member 2172]

I mean,if they added a pure grind option then the challenge option would instantly be moot to have

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With the current per tier cost/challenge reward amount you are right, it would become moot. I think they could find a happy medium if they decided to pursue one. I understand they don't want to, I just think that, personally, this will feel like an unrewarding experience for me.

I will probably get this game anyway, again I really like what they are doing here but this is just one snag I don't like at all.

 

[Richietto]

No tome limit is massive in my opinion. Every battle pass should be able to be completed at any time you want. I don't want to be stuck playing your game to get the most out of my battle pass.

 

[Kinthey]

At first the character battle passes seemed stupid to me but the article makes a good argument. That these passes don't have a time limit is probably the most important part

 

[ZeoVGM]

I just re-read the OP and the quoted article and all I see is OP's subjective (And I stress, valid) opinion on what the game means to them.

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You said this:

To me, the concept of an Avengers video game is about switching between all the characters at whim and earning the cool rewards for them based upon time spent playing with them. This feels like a system easily manipulated to locking you into one character to earn your investment back, for an unspecified amount of time, with "shortcuts" being offered in the form of other battle passes.

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Which likely means you ignored or look past this information from the OP:

The biggest thing, first and foremost, is that Avengers has realized that eliminating FOMO (the fear of missing out) is key in crafting a battle pass, which unlike pretty much every other game that uses them, Destiny included, theirs does not expire. As in, if you pick up the Hawkeye battle pass when his character comes out in a few weeks, you don't have a "season" to finish it. You have…as much time as you want, meaning you don't have to solely grind out Hawkeye over other characters to finish it if you don't want to.

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It does not manipulate players into one character. It does the exact opposite by removing the time limit on battle passes.

Play who you want, whenever you want. There is zero stress or manipulation into playing as a certain character for the battle passes.

 

[Bricktop]

It's kinda disgusting how hard some of you are going to bat for these MTX systems compared to even just a couple of years ago. If the weren't Marvel I think a lot of you wouldn't be twisting yourself in knots trying to defend this stuff.

Non expiring season passes are good, but there is no reason whatsoever there shouldn't be a single seasonal pass instead of one for each character. We already have a cash shop. We also have ZERO clue how long a pass takes to complete, so the play one get the next one free us suspect as hell.

Also $14 skins in an iconic super hero game where the actual loot has NO APPEARANCE effect whatsoever makes "it's only cosmetics" a much harder sell than any other of these games. In Destiny I can change my appearance with every item I loot, same with The Division. In Avengers my appearance doesn't change and you can bet your ass some of the most iconic skins will be pay only.

You created a new thread stanning for MTX based on a Forbes contributor piece and based on your post history it's a total shill move, it reads like a plant marketer for this game.

Jim was dead on with his assertions, plain and simple.

 

[VariantX]

Time-limited battlepasses are straight up garbage designed to force engagement even when a player may not want to play just so they can get their money's worth. Haven't bought a single CoD battlepass because of the fact that I may not play the game for more than an hour a week. Trying to hoard and monopolize a player's time isn't a good replacement for loot boxes. Let people finish those things in their own time.

 

[AntiMacro]

It sounds good in theory, and the no time limit for full completion is a strong positive. However, until it's revealed how long it takes to max out one of these battle passes to earn my money back, I'm skeptical about it.

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There's six of them so you can spend some time with multiple characters and earn enough to buy another battle pass without actually finishing any of them.

 

[TheGummyBear]

You said this:



Which likely means you ignored or look past this information from the OP:



It does not manipulate players into one character. It does the exact opposite by removing the time limit on battle passes.

Play who you want, whenever you want. There is zero stress or manipulation into playing as a certain character for the battle passes.

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And how much playtime in one single battle pass earns enough currency to afford the new character's battle pass? And if you finish them all, how many future battle passes does that make free?

My point stands, a calculated time sink is just that. And I just dont trust a GaaS to jot change things later down the line, considering that has happened before. (Fallout 76 promised only cosmetic microtransactions at launch, but later changed their mind. Crash Team Racing launched without any microtransactions, but later patched them in.)

I feel this model is ripe for abuse.

 

[AntiMacro]

And how much playtime in one single battle pass earns enough currency to afford the new character's battle pass? And if you finish them all, how many future battle passes does that make free?

My point stands, a calculated time sink is just that. And I just dont trust a GaaS to jot change things later down the line, considering that has happened before. (Fallout 76 promised only cosmetic microtransactions at launch, but later changed their mind. Crash Team Racing launched without any microtransactions, but later patched them in.)

I feel this model is ripe for abuse.

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Nobody knows the time yet, but every battle pass completed gets you the credits to buy another one.

Non expiring season passes are good, but there is no reason whatsoever there shouldn't be a single seasonal pass instead of one for each character. We already have a cash shop. We also have ZERO clue how long a pass takes to complete, so the play one get the next one free us suspect as hell.

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A single season pass? Great - so they add a new character and what...tack it onto the end?

 

[ZeoVGM]

And how much playtime in one single battle pass earns enough currency to afford the new character's battle pass?

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We don't know. But that's irrelevant because there is no time limit.

You're creating a problem that doesn't exist.

And if you finish them all, how many future battle passes does that make free?

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One. Each battle pass completed gets you the credits to buy another.

This is known. It seems like you're not aware of all the details before commenting negatively.

 

[Anastasis]

I mean, sure, I can get behind a battle pass that doesn't expire if that's something people want, but this makes more sense in Avengers, as each pass is locked to a single character. Battle passes in Destiny are shared between all of your characters. Not an apples to apples comparison by any means. And in their model, it is really necessary to adopt this approach because there are so many characters. It's in their best financial interests to allow players to play battle pass content whenever because otherwise people would be discouraged from buying more passes.

Rolling season passes that pay for the next after finishing the current season's would only work in Destiny if they decoupled the season pass from the big seasonal expansion purchase and made that a separate, additional purchase. Since seasons are only $10 in the first place (the entire cost of your average game's battle pass) while providing significantly more than just a battle pass worth of items in content, I guess that would look like a return their previous yearly expansion pricing ($50 minimum?) and then another $10 for each season pass (but if you reach max pass level, the next season pass unlocks for free). Eh, idunno if that would go over as well as Paul is suggesting. Not finishing a season pass becomes very expensive as you have to drop another $10 for the next pass one you want while regular players get it for free. I'm not sure how that decreases FOMO at all.

Finally, Paul should know the battle pass in Destiny 2 is fundamentally different than those in other games. In other games, the Battle Pass is the point of the purchase. This understanding is fundamental for this discussion, as it is completely different in Destiny 2. In Destiny 2, you buy into a season for the seasonal content: whatever weapons, story progression, raids, dungeons, and game modes that will be available for that season. The battle pass is just a throw-in extra; not the primary reason for purchase. If the season pass disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't really matter because it's not why people drop $10 every few months in Destiny 2. So yea, while it would be cool if the skins that come up later in the pass could be earned whenever you can get to them, this isn't any sort of apples to apples comparison. Very different games, very different character systems, very different amounts of content provided by season passes and battle passes.

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I haven't played Destiny 2 since November, but as far as I know, raids and dungeons are not part of the seasonal content (they are not tied to the purchase of a season). Only the battle pass, a rotating PvE activity and it's weapons, and a triumph? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ringten]

You know what's funny..if you kind of think about it, this is just like old school unlocks. Play a game/character, unlock items. The good ol' days.

I'll get this game on the PS5!

 

[Loud Wrong]

Destiny's Battle Pass is absolute trash, built solely around getting players to do the most boring aspect of the game - bounties. Ever wonder why the other players you're partnered with in PvP modes are playing like idiots? Its most likely because they have a bounty telling them to. Worst aspect though is the contents of what you get n the pass are mostly junk. And Bungie doesnt even have enough junk to fill out the pass, leaving many open slots.

 

[TheGummyBear]

We don't know. But that's irrelevant because there is no time limit.

You're creating a problem that doesn't exist.



One. Each battle pass completed gets you the credits to buy another.

This is known. It seems like you're not aware of all the details before commenting negatively.

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No, I'm actually confused. Are all the initial battle passes free? Or do you have to buy one at first?

The former sounds fair on the surface, the latter is predatory.

Speaking as someone who had literally bankrupted themselves on similar mechanics, I dont understand why you are being so aggressive about my concern. Especially given that this is a game that hasn't demonstrated how dare its progression systems actually are.

 

[DNAbro]

The no time limit is good, incredibly good even. The fact that I missed out on stuff previously in Destiny even though I paid for it just makes me want to play the game less.

 

[AntiMacro]

No, I'm actually confused. Are all the initial battle passes free? Or do you have to buy one at first?

The former sounds fair on the surface, the latter is predatory.

Speaking as someone who had literally bankrupted themselves on similar mechanics, I dont understand why you are being so aggressive about my concern.

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You get the six starter characters battle pass for free. That gets you 6,000 credits to continue buying what you want. People are being 'aggressive' because there's a lot of 'concern' lately...

 

[ZeoVGM]

No, I'm actually confused. Are all the initial battle passes free? Or do you have to buy one at first?

The former sounds fair on the surface, the latter is predatory.

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The battle passes for all of the base characters are free.

I dont understand why you are being so aggressive about my concern.

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The answer to the question you just asked is in the OP that you claimed to have read twice.

 

[TheGummyBear]

You get the six starter characters battle pass for free. That gets you 6,000 credits to continue buying what you want.

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How long does that take to earn and what does 6,000 get you? Will future battle passes continue that deal?

Most importantly, as with all live service games, what stops that from changing later on?