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unicornKnight

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,198
Athens, Greece
Having played for 5+ hours today I'm relieved it's not a big issue but it's definitely small and I don't see me playing from the distance of my couch. Used my poang and was closer to the TV.
Handheld is ok, still small though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
I saw this thread for the past few weeks and shrugged it off — but... it's impossible to believe someone on the team fought to the death over this. Even in handheld mode the glyphs look terrible because of downsampling artefacts. This is such shame. :(

The thing is, they maybe could've gotten away with text of that size if they had used a more legible font. But they used an old style one with moderate stroke contrast and a really low x-height. And the Switch's low pixel density only compounds the issue. Just terrible.

The entire medium is drowning in awful typographic decisions and I hate it.
Yes, exactly this!
 

Axisofweevils

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,842
Having now played it, I have to agree. I can barely read the tool tips. It's going to be even worse on the smaller Switch Lite. So odd because there's so much free space. The only flaw in an amazing game.
 

CGiRanger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,517
Monolithsoft actually learned from the same issue that happened to them with the text in Xenoblade X, as Xenoblade 2 is very legible on both handheld and TV mode.

Hopefully IS can fix this because it definitely doesn't look like it was quality controlled at all or if it was, it was ignored.
 
OP
OP
60fps

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
Having now played it, I have to agree. I can barely read the tool tips. It's going to be even worse on the smaller Switch Lite. So odd because there's so much free space. The only flaw in an amazing game.
Right? So much wasted space. It's insane nobody seems to have noticed or cared.

I tried the demo only in handheld mode and my fucking god this is true. I could not believe how small some of the text was. How could someone design and implement that and think "yeah this looks good, let's go with that".
Right?? Stuff like this has to stop for good.

Monolithsoft actually learned from the same issue that happened to them with the text in Xenoblade X, as Xenoblade 2 is very legible on both handheld and TV mode.

Hopefully IS can fix this because it definitely doesn't look like it was quality controlled at all or if it was, it was ignored.
Yeah just like you said, it doesn't seem they actually tested it themselves. Or if they did, they just ignored the issue.

Xenoblade 2 is the positive example I keep bringing up as well. Text is perfectly readable in both handheld and TV mode.

What baffles me is that reviews don't seem to mention flaws like these. I wish reviews were more consequent and came up with conclusions like "A great and lengthy experience that is unfortunately restrained from non-legible text. A representative score will not be possible until this issue gets fixed".

That would actually give a signal to developers and ultimately change game development in favor of the players in the long run.
 
Last edited:

Rewind

Member
Oct 27, 2017
569
The thing is, they maybe could've gotten away with text of that size if they had used a more legible font. But they used an old style one with moderate stroke contrast and a really low x-height. And the Switch's low pixel density only compounds the issue. Just terrible.

The entire medium is drowning in awful typographic decisions and I hate it.
The saddest thing is that lots of games, including this one, use seraph fonts which are terrible on computer screens. It's one of the first things you learn once getting into the topic of web design.
 

Mickagau

Member
Dec 11, 2018
2,165
France
I'm 42 yo with a good eyesight for my age (I don't need glasses) but indeed the font size is atrocious. I can barely read some of the text (playing in handled mode only). This has to be fix ASAP.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,713
United States
I didn't have an opinion until I saw if for myself. I'm pretty amazed how tiny it is. It's kind of giving me a headache because of how much focus is takes to read it. There is so much free space - why isn't it being used?

At least a lot of the heavy text is voiced.
 

Meleina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
I just started the game and I already hate it. As someone with bad eyesight, the tiny text just hurts.
 

LunaSerena

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,525
Yes, it's really small. It gave a small headache from playing - and I just played three hours last night.
I hope they patch in the option to increase the font, but if they don't, I'll have to move my sofa closer to my 43" I guess.
 

NERO.

Alt account
Banned
Jul 26, 2019
6
It's not the end of the world for me. I did notice it can be hard to read while playing.
 

Shifty1897

Member
Oct 28, 2017
702
Your milage may vary, but it's a huge deal how microscopic the text is to me. I primarily play in handheld mode and it's like being stabbed in the eyes every time I have to read a lengthy conversation.
 

WillyGubbins

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,459
Glasgow
Also a big problem for me. I can barely read a lot of the text and I constantly have to squint to read it. It's very tiring. Fingers crossed for a patch.
 

TheWill

Member
Sep 24, 2018
124
I'm wearing my glasses and still struggling! Love the game, but yikes how did this get through?!
 

Reki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
Playing on the TV was alright for me, but the text is pretty small on handheld. Especially the descriptions of stats and stuff.

Hoping the comments make them patch it.
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936
It hasn't been fixed yet? I was planning on playing it exclusively in handheld mode when I finally buy it...
 

Łazy

Member
Nov 1, 2017
5,249
Yes, it's really small. It gave a small headache from playing - and I just played three hours last night.
I hope they patch in the option to increase the font, but if they don't, I'll have to move my sofa closer to my 43" I guess.
"Just" 3 hours lol.
In a row ?

But yeah, text is quite small.
Hope they patch it.
 

Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
Massive amounts of negative space is the in thing in UI design right now because it's good for touch screens. The problem is it sucks for mouse or non touch screen UIs and it's bleeding over into places it shouldnt be like console game UIs.
 

Hagi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,950
I think it's really small playing handheld. I really hope they patch it if possible.
 

Łazy

Member
Nov 1, 2017
5,249
Well, I don't have much time to play so I've got to make most of it.
I'm not judging, I can do hours in a row too.
But it explains a bit more the headache, especially with small font.

I personaly get my right eye pretty dry and hurting in the morning after (but not with that game especially).
 
#5 In Depth insight on what is wrong with the font by fontguy

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,156
Add me to the list of people who find your posts incredibly interesting and informative. Much appreciated!

This is a bit off topic but what is your take on the following font?

I was viewing gameplay of Trails of Cold Steel for PS4 the other day to decide if I should buy it on sale right now, but the game's font(s) completely turned me off for now. You can tell this is a Japanese game localized into English just by looking at the font (which I think has been used for other Japanese games as well).

Wow. There's a lot going on here. I'm gonna take this out of order.

The font also changes its width depending on how much horizontal room it has, which looks completely jarring and unprofessional to me. (A lot of Japanese games do that. Tales of Berseria comes to my mind)

Simply stretching a typeface distorts the letters and completely messes up the intended thickness of the individual strokes that form the letter. If you stretch a letter horizontally x2, the vertical strokes will double in width, but the horizontal strokes will be unchanged. It looks like crap and it severely harms legibility.

They chose a nice font for the larger text (strikes a good balance between style and legibility), like the headers, but they also used it for the smaller, more space-limited segments, like the table containing more technical information in the third screenshot. The smaller and more constrained your text becomes, the less room you have for aesthetic considerations.

Here, using a second, ultra simple font, narrow enough to fit in the tightest spaces without being squished, would be my call. It would lose a little personality and leave a lot of unused space in the boxes that require only a few words, but the alternative is total visual chaos. There's just no room for anything but the absolute most legible typefaces here.

But it's weird—they did use a second, more legible font, but only for one column of text in that table.

mb55pVXh_o.jpeg


Dumb.

They also centered text in the first column, which is a no-no. Most of the time you want to left-align text in tables, though there are situations where right-aligning might be appropriate. But almost never centered.

Like, it doesn't give my eyes enough breathing room.

You're spot on, here. Your eyes absolutely need breathing room.

Xr5fERVv_o.jpeg


With normal tracking (the space between letters), that sentence is perfectly readable. With really low tracking, some of those words start to look like gibberish. And I used a very simple, very legible sans serif font here. With such little tracking, it can very easily devolve into totally meaningless scribbles depending on choice of font.

I find it plain ugly and uncomfortable to read. Poor spacing between characters and words is just one of the reasons why.

We've covered how letters need space, but just having space isn't enough. The space between letters needs to be visually uniform to maintain a rhythm. Just as you'd struggle to play a rhythm game where the button prompts don't match the beat, your eyes struggle to parse words with uneven spacing. And this dialogue box really wanged that up.

SCUsNqUZ_o.jpeg


It almost looks like that font is monospaced (meaning every character occupies the same amount of space). Look at the upper case i's and lower case L's. All the thin letters consistenly exist in these wide open spaces, and the wide letters are all just crashing into eachother.

In fact, it kinda looks like the font was not originally monospaced, but was sort of retrofitted to make each letter occupy the same amount of space. But even then, the characters in each line don't quite line up with those in the adjacent lines, so I have no idea.

Nothing here makes any sense, so I again have to imagine there's some arcane technical limitation being dealt with here.

And of course, stylistically, it just looks completely out of place. It reminds me a lot of the fonts typically used for flip phones in the 2000s. The strokes that make up those letters are all very straight/flat. For example, the descender (the hook-shaped portion) of the lower case G doesn't curve back up towards the circular portion, it jutts straight out. Everything looks like it was constructed using straight lines and right angles, and then the sharp edges were just rounded off afterwards.

Almost as though it was made to conform to a pixel grid. Like that of a small, low resolution screen on a flip phone.

In designer parlance, "This shit's all fucked up."
 

Samaritan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,697
Tacoma, Washington
Genuinely might hold off on starting my game until this gets sorted out. Just thinking about reading that text in handheld mode is giving me a headache.

I really don't understand why this is such a prevalent issue with so many Switch titles. I get that building two completely different versions of your UI isn't realistic, but so much of the time the only fix needed would be to increase the font size/thickness.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,252
I really have to squint to read some of it from my couch. And I'm only like three meters away. Also, how is the text in handheld so aliased/jagged? Baffling stuff.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
Five hours in, I'd forgotten Thor was supposed to be an issue, mostly because I find the text size absolutely fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

More options never hurt though, sure.
 

1000% H

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,639
This is my moment. People said I was stupid for keeping it, but now it's my turn to laugh at all of you for not keeping your Game Boy magnifiers.
 

Bossman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
68
Octopath's small text in handheld still hasn't been fixed so I fear that the Fire Emblem devs won't fix it either.
 

squeakywheel

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,084
I'll hold off playing for now. I like playing in handheld mode and my old eyes are taking a beating. I really hope they can fix this.
 

greenhadoken

Member
Oct 28, 2017
502
This is my number one pet peeve in games. My television is a healthy distance from my couch, and despite the fact that it is relatively large, I'm squinting through most modern gaming experiences. It's like every developer assumes I'm playing on a PC. The two major AAA games I played on my PS4 had this problem (God of War and RDR2) and I'm bummed to hear this is the case for Fire Emblem. Text size should be an option in every video game menu!
 
OP
OP
60fps

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
Wow. There's a lot going on here. I'm gonna take this out of order.



Simply stretching a typeface distorts the letters and completely messes up the intended thickness of the individual strokes that form the letter. If you stretch a letter horizontally x2, the vertical strokes will double in width, but the horizontal strokes will be unchanged. It looks like crap and it severely harms legibility.

They chose a nice font for the larger text (strikes a good balance between style and legibility), like the headers, but they also used it for the smaller, more space-limited segments, like the table containing more technical information in the third screenshot. The smaller and more constrained your text becomes, the less room you have for aesthetic considerations.

Here, using a second, ultra simple font, narrow enough to fit in the tightest spaces without being squished, would be my call. It would lose a little personality and leave a lot of unused space in the boxes that require only a few words, but the alternative is total visual chaos. There's just no room for anything but the absolute most legible typefaces here.

But it's weird—they did use a second, more legible font, but only for one column of text in that table.

mb55pVXh_o.jpeg


Dumb.

They also centered text in the first column, which is a no-no. Most of the time you want to left-align text in tables, though there are situations where right-aligning might be appropriate. But almost never centered.



You're spot on, here. Your eyes absolutely need breathing room.

Xr5fERVv_o.jpeg


With normal tracking (the space between letters), that sentence is perfectly readable. With really low tracking, some of those words start to look like gibberish. And I used a very simple, very legible sans serif font here. With such little tracking, it can very easily devolve into totally meaningless scribbles depending on choice of font.



We've covered how letters need space, but just having space isn't enough. The space between letters needs to be visually uniform to maintain a rhythm. Just as you'd struggle to play a rhythm game where the button prompts don't match the beat, your eyes struggle to parse words with uneven spacing. And this dialogue box really wanged that up.

SCUsNqUZ_o.jpeg


It almost looks like that font is monospaced (meaning every character occupies the same amount of space). Look at the upper case i's and lower case L's. All the thin letters consistenly exist in these wide open spaces, and the wide letters are all just crashing into eachother.

In fact, it kinda looks like the font was not originally monospaced, but was sort of retrofitted to make each letter occupy the same amount of space. But even then, the characters in each line don't quite line up with those in the adjacent lines, so I have no idea.

Nothing here makes any sense, so I again have to imagine there's some arcane technical limitation being dealt with here.

And of course, stylistically, it just looks completely out of place. It reminds me a lot of the fonts typically used for flip phones in the 2000s. The strokes that make up those letters are all very straight/flat. For example, the descender (the hook-shaped portion) of the lower case G doesn't curve back up towards the circular portion, it jutts straight out. Everything looks like it was constructed using straight lines and right angles, and then the sharp edges were just rounded off afterwards.

Almost as though it was made to conform to a pixel grid. Like that of a small, low resolution screen on a flip phone.

In designer parlance, "This shit's all fucked up."
Again, thanks much for the input. This explains why I find this font so utterly terrible.

Do you have any examples of good fonts in games, just off the top of your head?

Octopath's small text in handheld still hasn't been fixed so I fear that the Fire Emblem devs won't fix it either.
The Octopath developers definitely updated the text size before full release. I think it was after the first demo when they made the text bigger.

It's mind boggling they release a high profile game with such an obvious core issue.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Just baffling.
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,546
For lovers
Massive amounts of negative space is the in thing in UI design right now because it's good for touch screens. The problem is it sucks for mouse or non touch screen UIs and it's bleeding over into places it shouldnt be like console game UIs.

If the game had touch options I would be slightly more forgiving of it. I'd love to detach the controllers from the Switch and just use the tablet for the VN portions.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,103
Yeah, I find that this kind of complaint is usually overblown, but in this case for sure the text is painfully small. It is very uncomfortable to play in handheld mode.
 

Axisofweevils

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,842
For the first time ever in any game, I've actually turned the Switch's Zoom mode on (its in system settings), but zooming in makes you realise how ridiculously unsuitable the font choice actually is.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,300
The text in dialogue boxes is fine... but then the tutorial started and man what the fuck is up with that super small text
I had to physically bring the Switch closer to my face to read
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,156
Again, thanks much for the input. This explains why I find this font so utterly terrible.

Do you have any examples of good fonts in games, just off the top of your head?

Destiny 2 is the first one that comes to mind.

Ironic since it relies entirely on Helvetica and, generally, I am staunchly anti-Helvetica when it comes to UIs. It normally performs poorly at small sizes, and low-DPI screens make those issues much worse. But Destiny sidesteps it all with ease.

I also immediately noticed Wolfenstein: Young Blood's type. New Colossus used Univers (a pretty but not particularly legible font that I absolutely love) at tiny sizes, and it threw words at you in droves. A bad choice used badly.

In contrast, Young Blood uses IBM Plex (a less elegant, but very legible font) at large sizes and in heavy weights (the text is all Medium or Bold). A huge improvement, almost redeeming.
 
Last edited:

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,252
For the first time ever in any game, I've actually turned the Switch's Zoom mode on (its in system settings), but zooming in makes you realise how ridiculously unsuitable the font choice actually is.

Thanks for the reminder about that function. Reading the books in the library is so much easier now. I was really straining my eyes before.
 

Ashby

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,631
Jesus, I don't even have particularly shitty eyesight and this is nigh unplayable for me. Even in handheld mode! What the fuck were they thinking?