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APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
Aside from the obvious, the thing I can't stop thinking about is how the Deepground stuff fits into the narrative. At a point in the original, the threat from Sephiroth/Jenova is so great that Shinra basically reallocates all resources to stopping him. If the threat is great enough to relocate the cannon to Midgar and train it on him etc, surely it is also great enough to unleash all the crazy shit in the basement. In the original canon you can explain this away, just barely, that nobody with the power to make that decision really knew. It was fringe experimentation in a sealed unit. But with the Remake canon now demonstrating it's just an elevator button away and Scarlet is able to summon Nero with the press of a button, it feels like when Meteor is in the sky and everything goes to shit Deepground has to have a role.
 

Xenosaga

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,987
Aside from the obvious, the thing I can't stop thinking about is how the Deepground stuff fits into the narrative. At a point in the original, the threat from Sephiroth/Jenova is so great that Shinra basically reallocates all resources to stopping him. If the threat is great enough to relocate the cannon to Midgar and train it on him etc, surely it is also great enough to unleash all the crazy shit in the basement. In the original canon you can explain this away, just barely, that nobody with the power to make that decision really knew. It was fringe experimentation in a sealed unit. But with the Remake canon now demonstrating it's just an elevator button away and Scarlet is able to summon Nero with the press of a button, it feels like when Meteor is in the sky and everything goes to shit Deepground has to have a role.
Yeah I agree. I am quite curious to see the interactions between the Shinra higher ups and Deepground characters. I don't really know anything about Deepground since I haven't played DoC but it was quite interesting to see Scarlet and Nero interacting (even if it was barely anything). Would be interesting to see characters like Heideger and Rufus interacting with them, assuming they never did in the past games.
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,714
Thailand
Cloud definitely spent time in Midgar without knowing Avalanche. Like I said, they didn't even know his name at the time of the bombing run lol

I think When Tifa brought Cloud to the hideout. Barret and Others go somewhere else for a while.
During that time Cloud does Odd Jobs gain truth peoples around there.
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,034
Australia
I really hope these Kingdom Hearts villains aren't going to be a part of the overall plot of the remake series. I'll be happy if this more obscure stuff only shows up in side content for the super fans but if not, as much as I loved FF7R, I'm out. It's just too lame to handle.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,137
Aside from the obvious, the thing I can't stop thinking about is how the Deepground stuff fits into the narrative. At a point in the original, the threat from Sephiroth/Jenova is so great that Shinra basically reallocates all resources to stopping him. If the threat is great enough to relocate the cannon to Midgar and train it on him etc, surely it is also great enough to unleash all the crazy shit in the basement. In the original canon you can explain this away, just barely, that nobody with the power to make that decision really knew. It was fringe experimentation in a sealed unit. But with the Remake canon now demonstrating it's just an elevator button away and Scarlet is able to summon Nero with the press of a button, it feels like when Meteor is in the sky and everything goes to shit Deepground has to have a role.
In this game Nero breaks free and kills scientists, so maybe they didn't think it was a controllable option by then
 

Nonagon

Member
Jan 2, 2020
305
Cloud definitely spent time in Midgar without knowing Avalanche. Like I said, they didn't even know his name at the time of the bombing run lol
I think it's pretty established that Tifa found Cloud pretty late, maybe a week before the start of OG (9th Dec 0007). In the respective OG scene , he's basically tossed salad when Tifa found him. Upon recognizing her, he regains his strength and awareness very quickly.
In Remake he seems to have arrived on the 8th of Dec, as "noted" by Marle in the german and japanese localization. Marle only meets Cloud on the 10th of Dec. Tifa must have said on the 8th , that she had a friend, could he use of one of the rooms? Cloud definitely spent his first night there on the 9th. So where did Cloud sleep on the 8th, if Tifa has already met him. Did she just leave his bum ass somewhere on the street for one night? Given she's been ok with this for at least 1 night, it's also not out of place to think, she found him a few days or even a week ago, and have let him sleep on the street for a week.. but that feels kinda heartless.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,731
England
In this game Nero breaks free and kills scientists, so maybe they didn't think it was a controllable option by then

Sure, but by the time the Weapons are loose Rufus is full on pushing the panic button and trying anything, and so you'd expect that'd involve releasing them. Nero only kills the scientists because they try to restrain him before he can kill his 'prey', as well - before that, he's happily following orders from Scarlet and in the same room as her, non-aggressive. They'd surely release him and tell him that his prey is Sephiroth.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Omg I don't get it.
How is Zack alive with the Buster Sword?

It's a different timeline. At the end of FFVIIR, after Cloud and the gang defeated the Whispers and essentially broke their control over time, you saw Zack survive the fight outside Midgar that he should have died in. The cutscene at the end of Intergrade follows that Zack as he goes to see Aerith for the first time in, like, seven years.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,907
Hey so I've just transferred my save over to the ps5 version, how do I get access to chapter select now?
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,522
Kingdom of Corona
It's a different timeline. At the end of FFVIIR, after Cloud and the gang defeated the Whispers and essentially broke their control over time, you saw Zack survive the fight outside Midgar that he should have died in. The cutscene at the end of Intergrade follows that Zack as he goes to see Aerith for the first time in, like, seven years.
Thank you.
Is that why Aerith feels discomfort in her stomach?
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Thank you.
Is that why Aerith feels discomfort in her stomach?

It's hard to say if that was foreshadowing or just hungry pangs.

She could indeed feel something is wrong, though. She clearly has some awareness of what's meant to happen since she knows she's meant to die and adamantly refuses to, so maybe she can feel Zack out there somewhere but doesn't know it yet.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Sure, but by the time the Weapons are loose Rufus is full on pushing the panic button and trying anything, and so you'd expect that'd involve releasing them. Nero only kills the scientists because they try to restrain him before he can kill his 'prey', as well - before that, he's happily following orders from Scarlet and in the same room as her, non-aggressive. They'd surely release him and tell him that his prey is Sephiroth.
Maybe they will this time around
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,137
Sure, but by the time the Weapons are loose Rufus is full on pushing the panic button and trying anything, and so you'd expect that'd involve releasing them. Nero only kills the scientists because they try to restrain him before he can kill his 'prey', as well - before that, he's happily following orders from Scarlet and in the same room as her, non-aggressive. They'd surely release him and tell him that his prey is Sephiroth.
Nero turns on the scientists because his restraints were broken by Yuffie and Sonon. The scientists no longer had a way to control him. He's not someone they would unleash on the world -- he has to be kept in restraints in a controlled environment. Same reason they keep Weiss bound to a throne.
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
What about the new ending hinted that it was a different timeline?

Zack shows up at the church, filled with people from the slums after the plate fell, and Aerith isn't there cos she's off with the Main Party. It's the main timeline.

The NPCs in there are sector 5 NPCs. It doesn't make sense for them to be in Aerith's church after the plate fell. In fact when we go back to her church in chapter 14 after the plate falls, it's empty of refugees.

What makes the most sense is that they would be there after the Mako Reactor 1 was blown up so approx. 1 week before the events of the main timeline.
 
Last edited:

Lemony1984

Member
Jul 7, 2020
6,722
The NPCs in there are sector 5 NPCs. It doesn't make sense for them to be in Aerith's church after the plate fell. In fact when we go back to her church in chapter 14 after the plate falls, it's empty of refugees.

What makes the most sense is that they would be there after the Mako Reactor 1 was blown up so approx. 1 week before the events of the main timeline.
Would Mako reactor 1 even have blown up in that timeline? And why wouldn't Aerith be there helping out?

I think basing this theory solely on what could easily be explained by reused models, is a stretch myself.
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
Would Mako reactor 1 even have blown up in that timeline? And why wouldn't Aerith be there helping out?

I think basing this theory solely on what could easily be explained by reused models, is a stretch myself.

So then where does the different Stamp on the crisps bag fit in, if it's the same timeline?
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,510
Indonesia
Zack walked through Cloud and Aerith on the original Remake ending, imo that means he simply isn't in the same reality / timeline as them.
The intermission Zack cutscene avoids showing anything that can confirm when it's happening. They want us to be confused lol
 

Duonala

Member
Oct 27, 2017
516
Any chance Zack's world is a realm for the dead or something? And that the people in that church are new comers?
If so, I wouldn't be surprised if the lifestream reforms Aerith there after she dies.
Also, didn't Aerith call Cloud from the lifestream to come over at the end of FF7?
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
Any chance Zack's world is a realm for the dead or something? And that the people in that church are new comers?
If so, I wouldn't be surprised if the lifestream reforms Aerith there after she dies.
Also, didn't Aerith call Cloud from the lifestream to come over at the end of FF7?
Not one, Zacks alive and we are responsible for bringing him back by destroying the whispers.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I think the story is about the butterfly effect. Zack surviving will lead to a dimension where Sephiroth wins, and Sephiroth in the game's dimension will try to merge that reality into the current one.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Any chance Zack's world is a realm for the dead or something? And that the people in that church are new comers?
If so, I wouldn't be surprised if the lifestream reforms Aerith there after she dies.
Also, didn't Aerith call Cloud from the lifestream to come over at the end of FF7?
That would be a nice twist IMO
 

Tengrave

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
899
So is the working theory that because Zack gets to the church and people are there, and Aerith isn't, that's means he's now in the main timeline? I still don't understand how any of that indicates he could meet up with the Remake party at all.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
So is the working theory that because Zack gets to the church and people are there, and Aerith isn't, that's means he's now in the main timeline? I still don't understand how any of that indicates he could meet up with the Remake party at all.
There really isn't a "working theory" yet, it's all too ambiguous and pretty much anything is possible at this point.
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
So is the working theory that because Zack gets to the church and people are there, and Aerith isn't, that's means he's now in the main timeline? I still don't understand how any of that indicates he could meet up with the Remake party at all.
The timeline is now going to be different that is objectively the truth of what happened with the whispers at the end of main game. We don't know if Zack will meet up with the rest of the party but we do know our actions caused him to survive. He likely will maybe after aerith's death (if she still does at all) but it's clear that the story will now no longer be the same

There really isn't a "working theory" yet, it's all too ambiguous and pretty much anything is possible at this point.

There is nothing ambiguous about Zack being alive at this point anymore, the only thing people are wondering if he is in another timeline or in this current one
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
Unless he's in the world of the dead
Except he isn't, why would the world of the dead be that church for all those other people when we know in the original people took shelter in that church after the plate fell. You can go back and their are people in it.

The land of the dead theory is like the Ash is in a coma theory in Pokemon

Zack never made it to the church in the OG unless your with the theory his spirit is somehow still attached to cloud he never made it to midgar he died in that battle, he survived as a direct result of our actions in this game
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Except he isn't, why would the world of the dead be that church for all those other people when we know in the original people took shelter in that church after the plate fell. You can go back and their are people in it.

The land of the dead theory is like the Ash is in a coma theory in Pokemon
Taht's why I said there's no fully working theory yet
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
Taht's why I said there's no fully working theory yet
There is no theory besides the information we objectively have we destroyed the whispers Zack didn't die in the battle that was supposed to kill him he made it to the church and midgar now. The only thing that is up in the air is if this is before or after the plate fell in sector 7. And if he is in the main timeline but the whole land of the dead stuff no that isn't true


At this point people are just wanting to theorize so we can get the same story as before we objectively are not. That was the whole point of the whispers, we destroyed them to open up a new possibly a new story
 

Duonala

Member
Oct 27, 2017
516
I don't know, but even after seeing Zack for the first time at the ending of remake, I didn't think he survived. Maybe it's just that the impression he's dead is strong on me, but it could be they're trying to mask that world as a different timeline and will have us revisit the places from the main game as Zack and only reveal the truth when Aerith dies and wakes up there.
And since Sephiroth died, he will be there too which will be the drive for Zack's party.
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
I don't know, but even after seeing Zack for the first time at the ending of remake, I didn't think he survived. Maybe it's just that the impression he's dead is strong on me, but it could be they're trying to mask that world as a different timeline and will have us revisit the places from the main game as Zack and only reveal the truth when Aerith dies and wakes up there.
And since Sephiroth died, he will be there too which will be the drive for Zack's party.
Why would they do this after the whispers, after changing when Zack died, after showing him surviving only to say "nope lol he still dead" why besides doing some dome twist. If they wanted to leave it Zack still dying leave him out of the remake don't reference him in a point that is objectively about defying fate and changing destiny. By specifically showing him surviving they showed our efforts with the whispers the thing keeping the timeline on track can be stopped Destiny can be changed. That's the whole POINT OF THAT. We changed the story, we defied destiny, we altered the course of fate, that was the whole point of that fight.

I get people want the same story but quite honestly with that point with the whispers with Biggs and possibly Jessie surviving can you honestly say this "remake" is going to follow the same story at all anymore

If he is still dead then it just a dumb twist that says Destiny can't be defied and everything about whispers were pointless completely and utterly pointless
 

njean777

Member
Jan 2, 2020
172
Excited that there is going to be timeline fuckery, wouldn't be Nomura if there wasn't. Really enjoyed the DLC, I think 20$ was a little steep though, 15 would have been perfect for it.

I do have one question though: who is Deepground and why do they matter?
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,137
I do have one question though: who is Deepground and why do they matter?
As I understand it, Deepground is a top-secret Shinra military group inside Mako Reactor 0, a subterranean facility powering Shinra HQ. The brothers Nero and Weiss were born from experiments involving a dark form of mako made from "tainted lifestream" (lifestream with a high concentration of bad memories, i.e. pain and suffering). Nero can manipulate darkness and is kept in restraints; Weiss is so powerful he is kept shackled to a throne. They both hate Shinra (and mankind in general, whom they blame for their situation), and are both kept on a very tight leash.
 

Deleted member 56266

Account closed at user request
Banned
Apr 25, 2019
7,291
Is Weiss the new hardest boss in the game? I haven't fought him yet. I remember in the original when I platinumed it there weren't many tough fights really.
 

njean777

Member
Jan 2, 2020
172
As I understand it, Deepground is a top-secret Shinra military group inside Mako Reactor 0, a subterranean facility powering Shinra HQ. The brothers Nero and Weiss were born from experiments involving a dark form of mako made from "tainted lifestream" (lifestream with a high concentration of bad memories, i.e. pain and suffering). Nero can manipulate darkness and is kept in restraints; Weiss is so powerful he is kept shackled to a throne. They both hate Shinra (and mankind in general, whom they blame for their situation), and are both kept on a very tight leash.

Oh ok, I thought for some reason that maybe Nero may be Vincent but I was dead wrong lol. Kind of looked like him a bit.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,137
Oh ok, I thought for some reason that maybe Nero may be Vincent but I was dead wrong lol. Kind of looked like him a bit.
Nope, different characters. Although they do have a connection to him. In this DLC, they're just mad science experiments that get in your way. But in Dirge of Cereberus there's a whole genocidal plot to trick the planet into thinking extinction is underway, which would trigger the appearance of a Weapon called Omega to take the lifestream into itself and fly off into space looking for a suitable new world. That scheme fails, of course.
 

Nonagon

Member
Jan 2, 2020
305
The Devs basically confirmed Zack is alive in the Ultimania.
Still, if there is a place that can symbolically harbor a theory of "Zack and the church refugees are actually dead and waiting in line to join the lifestream", it's the church. Where flowers are in the church there is actually a lifestream fountain underneath, which can act as a collection point for deceased souls. People have also pointed out the similarities to the scene in AC, when Zack goes out into the light with Aerith. It's not like they are physically there, but are represented as symbolically present. Even the OG had a scene where Aerith's ghost would appear in the church.
So yeah, if there is a place to represent supernatural phenomena it would be the church.
 

njean777

Member
Jan 2, 2020
172
Nope, different characters. Although they do have a connection to him. In this DLC, they're just mad science experiments that get in your way. But in Dirge of Cereberus there's a whole genocidal plot to trick the planet into thinking extinction is underway, which would trigger the appearance of a Weapon called Omega to take the lifestream into itself and fly off into space looking for a suitable new world. That scheme fails, of course.

were they in DOC? I knew I recognized them from somewhere though I haven't played that game in a long long time lol.
 

jdmc13

Member
Mar 14, 2019
2,895
I still think the Zach stuff is in the past. While I can't explain why there are people in the church but no Aerith, the lighting implies the roof doesn't have a hole yet. My theory is that Zach started to go through the degradation Soldiers go through from Jenova. This caused him to give Cloud his Buster Sword so that Cloud could continue on for both of them. My working theory is that Zach is "man in black"/Sephiroth Clone that escaped Shinra Tower with Jenova; that's why as he's falling the game purposely slows down and focuses on him and Cloud making eye contact. Hell, he could even be "Marco" which would explain why he tried to basically grab Cloud. He might have been trying to warn, not attack, him.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
There is no theory besides the information we objectively have we destroyed the whispers Zack didn't die in the battle that was supposed to kill him he made it to the church and midgar now. The only thing that is up in the air is if this is before or after the plate fell in sector 7. And if he is in the main timeline but the whole land of the dead stuff no that isn't true


At this point people are just wanting to theorize so we can get the same story as before we objectively are not. That was the whole point of the whispers, we destroyed them to open up a new possibly a new story

Yeah so this is probably like I said, a butterfly effect, where Zack will save Aerith from being killed by Sephiroth, or try to. It puts the characters in an interesting position, but we as players know Aerith has to die, so maybe it will be a "maybe there is another way" type of deal, or how Zack not dying leads to Aerith not dying leads to a bunch of problems the team has to fix.
 

Nonagon

Member
Jan 2, 2020
305
I still think the Zach stuff is in the past. While I can't explain why there are people in the church but no Aerith, the lighting implies the roof doesn't have a hole yet. My theory is that Zach started to go through the degradation Soldiers go through from Jenova. This caused him to give Cloud his Buster Sword so that Cloud could continue on for both of them. My working theory is that Zach is "man in black"/Sephiroth Clone that escaped Shinra Tower with Jenova; that's why as he's falling the game purposely slows down and focuses on him and Cloud making eye contact. Hell, he could even be "Marco" which would explain why he tried to basically grab Cloud. He might have been trying to warn, not attack, him.
It's not so easy. The one with the tattoo #2 is actually from OG Sector 5, he is there regardless of Zack. Marco from Sector 7 is #49. Both Cloud and Zack, although participating in the Seph clone experiments, do not have numbers. (As an complementary note, in Remake where we defeated #49 in the Shinra Tower, after that #2 carries him up top and both jump.)
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
I think Zack might be the leader of the other Avalanche cell, in some dramactic reveal and with some plot shenanigans.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,510
Earth, 21st Century
Ending only gives more evidence to my original theory of changing the timeline = bad and it's exactly what Sephiroth wanted to do in the first place. The implication of the ending is that in AltZack's timeline something very bad has happened to Aerith, which would allow Sephiroth to achieve his goal, since there would be nobody to pray for Holy. And since this version of Sephiroth can cross time, he can possibly cross space as well and hop timelines, which would mean he would be very bad news for everybody. Or maybe he just wanted to win in one world.

Either way, I think the Remake series will end with the crew realizing that changing the timeline is bad and Aerith still has to die when she does, or at least die in general. They just want to play with our expectations and create tension and mystery using the implication that "anything can happen now" to keep us on our toes instead of us knowing when and where everything is going to happen. I still think they're going to maintain a high level of respect for the original story.
 

Terraforce

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
18,917
What about the new ending hinted that it was a different timeline?

Zack shows up at the church, filled with people from the slums after the plate fell, and Aerith isn't there cos she's off with the Main Party. It's the main timeline.
We saw the Sector 7 plate still up and Zack took Cloud off somewhere. It doesn't make sense for this to be the same timeline.