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EU draft declaration sets out stricter rules on migrant integration - includes edict on learning language of new home country
- Thread starter SilentPanda
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Incentivizing is fine, I just don't think it should be a requirement. It's how resentment and derision forms.
I don't get the outrage for this. what possible disadvantage do people have when they understand the language of the country they live in? more language skills always mean more opportunities. communication is the fundamental basis of every society. this policy is long overdue.
edit: of course this only applies if the government is willing to go the extra mile to make sure that everybody has the opportunity to fulfill these requirements with no additional costs.
edit: of course this only applies if the government is willing to go the extra mile to make sure that everybody has the opportunity to fulfill these requirements with no additional costs.
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I think helping immigrants to learn the local language is a good thing but that really isn't what this law is about. You just can't ignore who it's going to be used against and there's going to be a huge bias on that group.
Learning the language of the country you're moving to should be the bare minimum, so I am all for it.
As a migrant in Germany I'm doing the effort to learn the language because I can and have the means to do so. But it's my privilege. I know several people with no condition to pay a course and that would have to wait years to get a chance to be "sponsored" by the government to do it. I had the unpleasantness to see face to face how bad the social service is here and if you are currently jobless or between job they can treat you like shit and bury you in mountains of paperwork.
This is all really disheartening and if anything makes me feel even less welcome than before. Welp guess I should go back to where I came from right?
This is all really disheartening and if anything makes me feel even less welcome than before. Welp guess I should go back to where I came from right?
The article in the OP is about "assimilation" and it is built on a (false) concern from privileged people about assimilation. People with privilege do not need to be concerned about this, and they won't because they are not affected. If you have a university degree or two, you read a couple of weeks, and like me you never have to hear these "concerns" from these very concerned and very white gatekeepers guarding the gates of vienna. if your concerns about assimilation were real, your country wouldn't be such a racist place.
I think that most people coming to Europe is already coming wanting to have a good life and sharing the same values (these ones), and language isn't really something that needs to be enforced. I am just worried for kids that don't get enough public school, something that is an issue even with locals (high school dropouts are at an alarming record high). I don't want Europe to have anything to do with religious education or encryption. I wish we could get more funds for the efforts from the ONGs and our cities to deal with the issues that affect them - not security but more education for all ages.
I guess I have to state it again: no one is getting thrown out because they don't speak the language, but it would pretty, pretty useful for them to know their rights and how to deal with services and authorities on their own because it's more power to them to have better and bigger opportunities.
Big reminder that also no European country is the same as the other.
Then break, or provide an argument why it isn't a good move.
I agree with the declaration. Requirements to learn the language are positive for both the country's native population and the immigrants. I am surprised that this has been a choice for so long.
Agreed, we are way past the times when people could find labor intensive jobs without knowing the language.
Exhibit A of these policies but people wanna just hand wave it.
I mean, in Sweden we have welfare for these people so they can attend school and learn the language (SFI).
It's so telling to me that people are way more concerned with the idea that they may have people within their country who don't speak their language, than with the anti-immigrant sentiment and actions of their countrymen and countrywomen that declarations like this empower.
The fact that people, even in this thread, see immigrants who don't speak the same language as them, as being "disrespectful" is disgusting to me honestly but cuts right to the heart of what this is about. The sense that "you are in MY country so how dare you possess a characteristic which could inconvenience me in some way".
The fact that people, even in this thread, see immigrants who don't speak the same language as them, as being "disrespectful" is disgusting to me honestly but cuts right to the heart of what this is about. The sense that "you are in MY country so how dare you possess a characteristic which could inconvenience me in some way".
Come to think of it, every immigrant I've met here, be them Australian, German, Turkish, Pakistani, Indian, Russian, Kenyan, etc, etc, have known the local language. It's also weird how some people can have lived here for decades and still be unable to catch sarcasm and such, while others who's only here for a few months speaks the language better than me.
Weirder still, some even came here for the weather.
I honestly believe that most actually want them to have the best possible outcome in their countries and to have a good life.
I totally agree with you. I think that given the timing and the circumstances, this is meant to exercise control on some groups more so than outright helping the integration process. However, I do think it will do that as well. Ultimately, it all comes down to the finer details to me in order to see if this can be abused against minorities (who else) once put into action. Unfortunately, it is likely that is the case.
Eh, I haven't seen anyone trying to argue that immigrants not speaking the same language is disrespectful, but that it would be beneficial for the immigrants themselves if they learned at least a basic grasp of the language.
As a immigrant myself, yes it should be.
There is many people whom i know living for 20+ years in the country and still need a translator for basic doctor visits.
Source: I have been working as a translator on and off for quick money
I surmise that EUEra is used to having national languages and expecting everyone entering their countries to speak them. I personally find such a requirement to be nationalistic and honestly, heartless. Increasing accessibility to language education is one thing, talking about forcing migrants to adopt a language is another. It implies that it's not okay to exist there without learning the language, which as many of us know in the USA, is pretty problematic for several reasons. One being that it is very hard to learn a language fluently, and it could take years. Nationalistic language elitism breeds treating migrants like second class citizens for their accents or languages. I mean my father was Danish and I can't even fucking use the Danish immigration website because a lot of their important policies and content are exclusively in Danish just to be fucking inaccessible on purpose to outsiders (I never learned Danish). Meanwhile here in Washington, USA, many public services and hospitals state that community members have a right to interpreter and language services in their native language if need be.
Maybe instead of forcing especially refugees, the government could make a kind of job out of it , where they get payed some bonus for taking classes in their respective languages and completing them nets them a good amount of money. Raising the incentive without forcing people.
People are nationalists and don't even know it. It's wild to me. But we're wrong to say requiring it is bad.
I'm all for it being a positive thing, making it into dangling a persons worth in being in a country is fucking abhorrent.
There are a variety of arguments already presented in this thread. I don't need to repeat them. But thanks for quoting me, especially as I've also enumerated why I feel this is a bad idea myself in another post.
I have a suspicion this will only effect migrants with a bit of melanin.
In Sweden we have Finnish speaking pree school.
A few kids didn't speak Swedish once they started regular school.
Does this mean that they must learn it too?
In Sweden we have Finnish speaking pree school.
A few kids didn't speak Swedish once they started regular school.
Does this mean that they must learn it too?
Its not doubt it will be abused. Anything that comes down in a non-welcoming way will always be abused and give reasons to deport people, who are otherwise are peaceful
I really don't see how the language requirement is any different than the people who say "we speak American here."
How do elections work in most EU countries for language? Here in the States, I had the option to request my ballot in a huge variety of languages. I've known people back down south who didn't speak hardly a word of English, just Spanish.
If you did want to come here and only speak Italian, you could though. The English interview for US citizenship is pretty basic stuff (you have to respond to questions about your paperwork, read one sentence out of three, and write down one of three sentences). And of course it's only administered once; if you pass it, you can feel free to never speak English here again. The US has no national language and even most Republicans don't go near that.
How do elections work in most EU countries for language? Here in the States, I had the option to request my ballot in a huge variety of languages. I've known people back down south who didn't speak hardly a word of English, just Spanish.
If you did want to come here and only speak Italian, you could though. The English interview for US citizenship is pretty basic stuff (you have to respond to questions about your paperwork, read one sentence out of three, and write down one of three sentences). And of course it's only administered once; if you pass it, you can feel free to never speak English here again. The US has no national language and even most Republicans don't go near that.
- this is moving the onus of fault from rich government and potential employers from providing education, support and accommodation, to the poor and ones in need. even if it's completely subsidized, things like travel costs won't be. nor will the time people are going to have to take out of their potentially busy lives, doing underpaid labor, to learn the fuckin' language.
- there's a double standard between 'expats' and immigrants. if it is so crippling and completely leaves people unable to function in their lives, why don't expats have to do the same? if this is supposedly a requirement that people can actually live their lives, how are all the expats that don't speak the local language not like... dead? clearly, people can survive just fine, so it's not a law to protect the migrants.
- this is not gonna be used held against anyone from white countries.
How about fucking never deport peaceful immigrants?
- there's a double standard between 'expats' and immigrants. if it is so crippling and completely leaves people unable to function in their lives, why don't expats have to do the same? if this is supposedly a requirement that people can actually live their lives, how are all the expats that don't speak the local language not like... dead? clearly, people can survive just fine, so it's not a law to protect the migrants.
- this is not gonna be used held against anyone from white countries.
How about fucking never deport peaceful immigrants?
This is a weird position to take. Why would someone want to live in another country if they don't want to integrate it's society? Are you suggesting that if immigrants want to create a mini-version of their country within the country they migrated to, the governement should do nothing, because it infringe on their freedom?
The horror! Works like that in Canada, you have to learn French or English to get citizenship.
If I moved to Italy, I would expect to have to learn Italian. Would be pretty happy to as well, especially for my future kids!
Then why is there no energy put into trying to understand these immigrant's experience? Trying to look at things from their eyes? Why is so much of this thread people going "I would never move to another country without learning the language, I can't believe this"? Why are people not engaging with the prospect of discrimination that this could cause? I don't understand how people can profess to have others best interests at heart, but not even try a little to engage in that way.
I guess it works differently there. I am gonna put the thread on mute since I already got the point people is making.
I think learning a basic form of the language is a good thing but expecting the people to basically speak just like the natives of the country is too far. It is really hard to learn a whole new language. Even worse if the person is coming from a country in Asia where English or any other european language is very different and harder to learn.
Translators are very easy to get on the phone for stuff that need advanced language.
Most of the other rules in the OP are pretty bad and too strict.
Translators are very easy to get on the phone for stuff that need advanced language.
Most of the other rules in the OP are pretty bad and too strict.
Americans do it all the time. Again shit like this is targets against one group of people.
Right now this is theoretically merely a statement, but like... as a law, what the fuck would implementation even look like? How do you check up on people to determine whether or not their understanding of a language is legally sufficient, when it's tied to their ability to be resident? Do they have to get good within ten years? Five? One? Given it's the EU that could vary by country, in which case you're potentially going to just encourage people to go to whichever country has the most lenient standards!
Even Japan, with one of the most well known language proficiency systems in the world, and a strong anti-migrant sentiment, doesn't explicitly tie it to the requirements of residency and citizenship. Because different jobs have different requirements and ability to accommodate, which will affect pressure - or lack thereof - on a person to learn a language to a given degree of complexity.
And of course, the actual resources to get people up to snuff are another matter. These kinds of things are never evenly distributed, and in an EU as divided as it is right now... well, do you expect fucking Duda to actually care to establish workshops to help Arabs learn Polish? It'd be a single office in Warsaw which is closed six days a week and only allows 10 applicants a year, if any legal framework allows for such. The alternative is one standard across the bloc, which they're doubtful to agree to either
This isn't just unethical, it's dumb at a practical level without the mother of all negotiations
Even Japan, with one of the most well known language proficiency systems in the world, and a strong anti-migrant sentiment, doesn't explicitly tie it to the requirements of residency and citizenship. Because different jobs have different requirements and ability to accommodate, which will affect pressure - or lack thereof - on a person to learn a language to a given degree of complexity.
And of course, the actual resources to get people up to snuff are another matter. These kinds of things are never evenly distributed, and in an EU as divided as it is right now... well, do you expect fucking Duda to actually care to establish workshops to help Arabs learn Polish? It'd be a single office in Warsaw which is closed six days a week and only allows 10 applicants a year, if any legal framework allows for such. The alternative is one standard across the bloc, which they're doubtful to agree to either
This isn't just unethical, it's dumb at a practical level without the mother of all negotiations
You are quoting some posters that say this, not all is saying that.
And again Americans in the thread try to view the EU through their US centric lens when even the article states that certain member states are against this:
It's becoming increasingly apparent that people will just react to quotes chosen by a single user, or worse just reactions on those quotes, or even worse just the title of a thread.
It's becoming increasingly apparent that people will just react to quotes chosen by a single user, or worse just reactions on those quotes, or even worse just the title of a thread.
I live in Catalonia, a region of Spain with a local language, on average here the people who speak Catalan have higher wages compared to the Spaniards that don't. Language issues are not unique to immigrants.
Exactly the implications i fear, and should be thrown out if so.
Democracy does not need a common language in order to function. It is not like we use direct democracy and decide evrything by going to a big public square to agree on things in person. There is plenty of room to just use good old-fashioned translation in modern democracy.
I mean, in the recent election where I live here in the US, all election materials, from voter information guides to official ballots, provided all information in English, Chinese, and Spanish. Copies of that information could be provided on request in more than a dozen other languages, from Arabic to Tagalog. TV adds for poltical candidates are broadcast just as readily on Spanish language channels as they are on English channels. As far as I am concerned, the burden for getting people involved in democracy and protecting their rights should be on the government, not on individual people.
Also, do you think that democracy is just impossible in the many countries around the world that use a wide variety of languages? Countries like India have as much or more linguistic diversity as all of Europe combined. Do you think democracy is impossible for them?
Of course they do. " From 1 September 2008 an applicant for Norwegian citizenship must also give evidence of proficiency in either the Norwegian or the Sami language, or give proof of having attended classes in Norwegian for 300 hours, or meet the language requirements for university studies in Norway (i.e., demonstrate proficiency in one of the Scandinavian languages). From 1 March 2014 an applicant for Norwegian citizenship must also pass an exam about Norwegian society, laws and history. "
(Source)
Which only means people saying "That would never apply to white people" really don't know what they're talking about.
And? The govt accommodates a variety of people in a variety of ways. "I need translation services" is not different than any other request for accommodation.
To partake in society it would absolutely be beneficial if you'd learn Norwegian, yes. Although you'd probably get by fine with just English. Most of us norskies under 50 are more or less fluent in English, but even people my parents' age (50-60 years old) barely had English in school and would possibly have trouble communicating on more than a rudimentary level.
Official government communication is in official national language. In countries with multiple languages, you might not even be able to get the documentation in all official languages depending on the place you live. I live in a country where politicians have been 'disqualified' for mayoral elections because they broke that latter rule on purpose.
I mean neither country is (soon at least) in the EU lol so EU rules won't apply anyway.
I totally get it would be a positive to learn the language and the benefits it brings plus making it infinitely easier for education in particular among other general life but it seems like such an impossible thing for most people to do who they are likely aiming this at that it seems nothing more than, don't come here.
This is an interesting discussion.
- On one hand forcing somebody to learn a language is wrong. People should be able to live perfectly fine wherever they are speaking their own language.
- On the other hand, knowing at least some part of the local language can help foreigners get very far and participate more in local activities, etc. etc.
I am Portuguese and live in Portugal, wife is Polish.
We both speak English, she learned Portuguese and I (tried) learning Polish. Much harder to learn when you are not in the country of origin to practice it.
Some tidbits when engaging with imigrants living and/or working here.
- Children of immigrants always learn the language. That much is true and they always end up helping their parents if the parents did not learn Portuguese.
- I've been to stores run by entire families of people from all over the world. Usually families from Asia find it harder to learn our language. Usually there is always someone who speaks something of either Portuguese or English, but it has happened many times where no one speaks any language that either both parties understand. Let's say I want to ask if they have some sauce, special brand of milk or something else I don't see in the shelves but know they usually have and in these cases we either spend a good deal of time trying to understand each other and usually laugh about the whole thing, or I just leave because I don't have the time that day. They just lost a costumer. I might return but only to pick up things I can immediately see.
- In Government offices like the IRS and Social Security offices, I've seen countless times again and again frustrated clerks trying to help people to pay their taxes, fill in paperwork and many other things and both parties getting very desperate due to the lack of understanding. Normally someone leaves and has to get help from relatives or go to the consulate to try and hire a translator, etc. If they don't have the money, it is hard and might start paying fines for not paying basic things.
Now, back to my Polish wife. She learned Portuguese because we thought it was a good idea considering we chose Portugal to live and work. We also considered Poland and Germany and in both cases either I would learn written and spoken Polish or we would learn German. Benefits are obvious and it sounds like it makes sense.
Obviously some folks don't have the money for this. They just moved with their family to another country.
Would be great if everyone could speak just their language when living and working in another country but in my view there should be some middle ground where at least one family member needs to speak some basic form of it. Everyone benefits from it.
What if, and this is a big IF, maybe if it is mandatory to learn the country language companies can then be forced to get lessons to their workforce. Maybe this way they can apply to local or European funds to subsidize it because it is mandatory?
- On one hand forcing somebody to learn a language is wrong. People should be able to live perfectly fine wherever they are speaking their own language.
- On the other hand, knowing at least some part of the local language can help foreigners get very far and participate more in local activities, etc. etc.
I am Portuguese and live in Portugal, wife is Polish.
We both speak English, she learned Portuguese and I (tried) learning Polish. Much harder to learn when you are not in the country of origin to practice it.
Some tidbits when engaging with imigrants living and/or working here.
- Children of immigrants always learn the language. That much is true and they always end up helping their parents if the parents did not learn Portuguese.
- I've been to stores run by entire families of people from all over the world. Usually families from Asia find it harder to learn our language. Usually there is always someone who speaks something of either Portuguese or English, but it has happened many times where no one speaks any language that either both parties understand. Let's say I want to ask if they have some sauce, special brand of milk or something else I don't see in the shelves but know they usually have and in these cases we either spend a good deal of time trying to understand each other and usually laugh about the whole thing, or I just leave because I don't have the time that day. They just lost a costumer. I might return but only to pick up things I can immediately see.
- In Government offices like the IRS and Social Security offices, I've seen countless times again and again frustrated clerks trying to help people to pay their taxes, fill in paperwork and many other things and both parties getting very desperate due to the lack of understanding. Normally someone leaves and has to get help from relatives or go to the consulate to try and hire a translator, etc. If they don't have the money, it is hard and might start paying fines for not paying basic things.
Now, back to my Polish wife. She learned Portuguese because we thought it was a good idea considering we chose Portugal to live and work. We also considered Poland and Germany and in both cases either I would learn written and spoken Polish or we would learn German. Benefits are obvious and it sounds like it makes sense.
Obviously some folks don't have the money for this. They just moved with their family to another country.
Would be great if everyone could speak just their language when living and working in another country but in my view there should be some middle ground where at least one family member needs to speak some basic form of it. Everyone benefits from it.
What if, and this is a big IF, maybe if it is mandatory to learn the country language companies can then be forced to get lessons to their workforce. Maybe this way they can apply to local or European funds to subsidize it because it is mandatory?
There is a reason why far right Americans stay looking at those countries laws when it comes to immigration.
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