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Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,099
Halifax, NS
Sounds like it's just a RP account. There are already a ton of those, both fan-run and official. But it's catching derision because the character dares to mention mental health without going full PSA?

Uh, yes?

Exploiting people's compassion for those with genuine mental health issues purely for some sort of commercial venture is a pretty foul line to cross in any sense, especially during a pandemic where a number of people are already in a poor mental state to begin with. Like, at the very best, this comes across as something in incredibly bad taste and with the worst timing possible.

You're not gonna see Hatsune Miku out there telling people that she's thinking of killing herself but she might change her mind if you buy an extra large pizza from Dominos. You want to make some virtual idol thing to hawk your products, go ahead. But there's a line of having your virtual idol directly interact with the real world and making the implication that she suffers from the same issues you and I face.
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
An RP account that is presenting as human. Let's not forget this account is verified and there is no disclaimer it is fictional. Riot's goal is to exploit your emotions in order for you to buy their products. The fact that it is doing it and many here seem OK with it spells foul for the future, in my honest opinion. If you cannot see that clearly, I'm not sure how else to explain it to you.
 

Ikuu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,294
Sounds like it's just a RP account. There are already a ton of those, both fan-run and official. But it's catching derision because the character dares to mention mental health without going full PSA?

Mention mental health? It's asking people to send it messages to help it cope with it lol A little different than talking about it.
 

Mórríoghain

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,155
Please end this fake influencer thing. We are not technologly advanced enough to have fake influencers. That is a Cyberpunk category event.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
Just gonna continue my comment above by saying yes, this feels fucking weird, haha.

But thinking about it more, I don't see how this is necessarily destructive. Interacting with this fake person could actually be a healthy test-run for people that are unsure about talking to real folks or if they don't have anyone to talk to.

I'm looking at this completely from a mental health perspective, not from the ethical standpoint if corporations should be interacting with us in this way to get a following. That is kinda weird. But then again... if people need that outlet... the company is sorta like a beneficial parasite.

What outlet?

the virtual persona is asking for consumers to buy her skin.

It's not a support piece on mental health, it's a fake Person by a corporation using mental illness to market a 30 dollar skin.
 

SmackDaddy

Member
Nov 25, 2017
3,169
Los Angeles
What outlet?

the virtual persona is asking for consumers to buy her skin.

It's not a support piece on mental health, it's a fake Person by a corporation using mental illness to market a 30 dollar skin.

In my opinion, it is both a support piece on mental health AND a marketing tactic to sell a 30 dollar skin. It can be all of these things- weird, uncomfortable, not understood by my age group, helpful, empathetic, shitty marketing stunt. I guess My standpoint isn't good for discussion, but I can't hate on a company that sells a product that its fan base is happy about- whether the fanbase is aware of why it's making them feel good or it's a trojan horse of empathy. It's just marketing.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
But how is this a support piece on mental health? Who is this supporting other than the marketing department who are getting attention on their fake-verified, fake-girl twitter?
The fact that they see "girl online asking for support and encouragement because of self-esteem issues" as a marketing tool is beyond gross. And this isn't a young vs old problem
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
In my opinion, it is both a support piece on mental health AND a marketing tactic to sell a 30 dollar skin. It can be all of these things- weird, uncomfortable, not understood by my age group, helpful, empathetic, shitty marketing stunt. I guess My standpoint isn't good for discussion, but I can't hate on a company that sells a product that its fan base is happy about- whether the fanbase is aware of why it's making them feel good or it's a trojan horse of empathy. It's just marketing.

yeah commercializing mental health to sell video game skins is something that older folks just don't understand.

*roll eyes*
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,511
But there's a line of having your virtual idol directly interact with the real world and making the implication that she suffers from the same issues you and I face.

I'm completely lost on this. Of course she doesn't actually suffer from the same issues as real people; she's fictional. But we indulge in fictional characters suffering from those issues all the time, in TV, movies, books, video games, etc. But an RP account crosses a line? Why? Because of the participatory nature of the audience? Seems like drawing arbitrary lines across different forms of media.
 

SmackDaddy

Member
Nov 25, 2017
3,169
Los Angeles
But how is this a support piece on mental health? Who is this supporting other than the marketing department who are getting attention on their fake-verified, fake-girl twitter?
The fact that they see "girl online asking for support and encouragement because of self-esteem issues" as a marketing tool is beyond gross. And this isn't a young vs old problem

Because asking for help is extremely hard, and the first step in emotional recovery. It's showing young people that it's okay to do it, and it's bringing that type of behavior into a space of normalcy. Maybe. Hopefully!!
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,099
Halifax, NS
I'm completely lost on this. Of course she doesn't actually suffer from the same issues as real people; she's fictional. But we indulge in fictional characters suffering from those issues all the time, in TV, movies, books, video games, etc. But an RP account crosses a line? Why? Because of the participatory nature of the audience? Seems like drawing arbitrary lines across different forms of media.

Do you watch a movie and think the people on the screen are real?

Like, as in they are actual people who live in our world and not fictional creations meant for our amusement?

That's the difference here.

Someone creates a twitter account with zero (read: ZERO) reference to the fact that it is in fact a marketing campaign, and proceeds to put on the act of needing support for a mental health issue, when the underlying reason for doing so is for consumer engagement on their product. That's insulting.

There's a difference between a "person" RPing, where there's clearly a part of that character that is the real person behind it (and the real need for support), and a corporation RPing an account to market their product.
 
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PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,511
Do you watch a movie and think the people on the screen are real?

Like, as in they are actual people who live in our world and not fictional creations meant for our amusement?

That's the difference here.

Someone creates a twitter account with zero (read: ZERO) reference to the fact that it is in fact a marketing campaign, and proceeds to put on the act of needing support for a mental health issue, when the underlying reason for doing so is for consumer engagement on their product. That's insulting.

Wait. That's the concern? That someone would be following this video game character on twitter (presumably because they also play the video game she's a character in) and somehow be fooled into thinking she's a real life person. lol. Ok, sure. Hey, you know what, the internet is a weird place, so maybe some one is out there under that delusion, desperately trying to purchase K/DA tickets. But that seems a bit too minute of possible problem to do any hand-wringing over.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,099
Halifax, NS
Wait. That's the concern? That someone would be following this video game character on twitter (presumably because they also play the video game she's a character in) and somehow be fooled into thinking she's a real life person. lol. Ok, sure. Hey, you know what, the internet is a weird place, so maybe some one is out there under that delusion, desperately trying to purchase K/DA tickets. But that seems a bit too minute of possible problem to do any hand-wringing over.

You do understand that when the account was created (and verified), there was no indication that she was a video game character right? It was just presenting as some person RPing some character. Literally zero ties on her profile back to Riot or anything.

The whole point of this exercise was Riot trying to gain attention from people who DON'T play League of Legends by creating this false persona of someone acting personable and relatable in the hopes of gaining a social media following and then directing those people into the LoL ecosystem when the truth of what she is comes to light. And part of this was acting as if this false persona's mental health needed support from the community, which people are taking offence to how tackless it comes across given the current state of things.

Like, that account was on twitter and interacting with people for MONTHS before everyone caught on that this was a marketing gimmick. It's not just "somebody got tricked into thinking a video game character was real".
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
I'd argue that this is more cynical than a Vtuber because at least the person behind that avatar gets to play a character and do live interaction with fans. This is just some social media rep RPing a League of Legends character hoping that someone will be enough of a schmoe to buy a skin because they post "day so fine then boom mental illness".
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,318
Trying to leverage this sort of thing into paying customers is definitely really sleazy, not a fan of this at all. Cynical marketing should stay away from certain topics.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,511
You do understand that when the account was created (and verified), there was no indication that she was a video game character right? It was just presenting as some person RPing some character. Literally zero ties on her profile back to Riot or anything.

The whole point of this exercise was Riot trying to gain attention from people who DON'T play League of Legends by creating this false persona of someone acting personable and relatable in the hopes of gaining a social media following and then directing those people into the LoL ecosystem when the truth of what she is comes to light. And part of this was acting as if this false persona's mental health needed support from the community, which people are taking offence to how tackless it comes across given the current state of things.

Like, that account was on twitter and interacting with people for MONTHS before everyone caught on that this was a marketing gimmick. It's not just "somebody got tricked into thinking a video game character was real".

Looks more like the intent from the start was for it to be an ARG for LoL players to discover, rather than an insidious snare for unsuspecting Twitter users.

thegamehaus.com

Who is Seraphine? Is She the Next LoL Champion?

Have you heard about Seraphine? Many are wonder, is Seraphine the next Champion? Here is some evidence as to why she might be.
Who is Seraphine? This is a question that has been asked many times in recent days. This is because a twitter account was made back in June of 2020 for what seems to be a fictional, animated character. She seems to be out in the real world but is in a style similar to how League of Legends animates their character.

...

On Thursday. 8/20, Riot Games revealed that KDA would be coming out with a new single called, "The Baddest. It was on this day that many realized that the Seraphine twitter account existed. This felt like a likely coincidence and then, Seraphine released a cover of "Pop Stars" by KDA only two days later.

Note the bolded. Look at the interactions of her tweets. Even from her first tweet in June, virtually all interactions are dated no earlier than 8/20 (or 8/19, presumably due to time zones) since her following is due to the connection to the LoL community.



And besides, even if it wasn't immediately apparent that she wasn't a Riot-affiliated RP character, it's still obvious that it's an RP account of some sort. Unless you look at these clearly illustrated "selfies" and think to yourself, "ah, look at this totally real person on Twitter"
 

DFG

Self requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
What if she manifests in our world if we support "her" enough??
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Isn't this the same thing as Hatsune Miku? Forgive me, I have very little knowledge on this.
No. All Miku has ever done was partner with orgs to provide PSA stuff, like recently appointed as a spokesperson for covid-19 countermeasure and prevention in Japan. Miku is largely used for educational purposes too because that's the intent of the Vocaloid software.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,947
I'd argue that this is more cynical than a Vtuber because at least the person behind that avatar gets to play a character and do live interaction with fans. This is just some social media rep RPing a League of Legends character hoping that someone will be enough of a schmoe to buy a skin because they post "day so fine then boom mental illness".

On top of that, there's also a missing factor that essentially acts as a wall between the twitter holder and the users.

It doesn't have a voice. That's important, it helps ties down a person to that character, and should they retire or "graduate", the character is retired as well. Who is operating the twitter account here? We don't need the full scope of their identity or anything, but we need to know if its an "individual" rather than someone who can be swapped in and out.

And then there is also RiotGames issues, its hard not to feel cynical about why RiotGames is doing it.
 

Quad Lasers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,542
Everything about this account fucking sucks, man.

That tweet isn't even really trying to broach any topic of mental wellness. It's just the extremely thin veneer of a bunch of fucking weirdos at Riot with their nose way too deep up the ass of that company's culture trying to ham-fistedly write a relatable twitter persona.
 

Saturday

One Winged Slayer - Shinra Employee
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,476
Looks more like the intent from the start was for it to be an ARG for LoL players to discover, rather than an insidious snare for unsuspecting Twitter users...

Hey, so I agree with this post in that the Seraphine twitter account probably wasn't *designed* to emotionally coerce people into buying skins (I'm actually quite amused by it) but I think you're seeing the forest for the trees (you're focussing on a singular point that other members are making which might not convey what everybody else is thinking.)

I think this touches on a general grievance that people have when it comes to specific modern marketing, some examples of which have been posted already in this thread.



Let's take this tweet, for instance. There's no buildup to this punchline, that's the tweet. A juice brand is posting about depression. Is this a joke? Is this is real? We don't know. If you heard someone say this in real life out of context, you'd be a little alarmed. But by context, you would assume this is a joke. People do that in real life too, that's modern humour.

So if you heard this in real life even as a joke, you'd be like "oh ha, he's just being self-depreciative."

But this is not a person in real life making a casual joke. This is a goddamn juice brand. Why are they making this joke? Is it just for fun? These are the questions that come to mind whenever I see a tweet like this.

Let's shift gears a little into another example where a brand is giving us something that isn't a direct advertisement:



This is a mildly infamous commercial where the supposed intent is to show goodwill and promote peace out unity. It has been rightfully lambasted because even when that commercial came out people did not view law enforcement in a positive light, to say the least. Viewing this video in 2020? Well.

So again, we ask questions: why was this commercial made? Was it to promote support for law enforcement and to help bridge the divide?

I know these might seem unrelated (and unproportional compared to a video game twitter ARG-lite account,) and maybe you already have seen and agreed that these tweets/videos have concerns that people have rightfully brought up. But I want to reinforce the common thread is here is that marketing is crossing boundaries in that it's trying not to pass itself as marketing. This is not great. This is a tiny* bit dystopian

*it's bad, man

I feel weird typing this out, because this happens.. so much nowadays, and I do not claim to be succinct in explaining this (there are good videos out there, but I'm making this post because maybe it's easier to digest.)

My friends are into K-Pop, Idols, Vtubers. I ain't about that life but I can't help but get drawn into it sometimes and I admit there's fun stuff, and as I mentioned I have been amused by the Seraphine twitter account, but when a juice brand starts talking about depression, when a cola brand promotes peace between the public and law enforcement, when a fictional video game character's faux-personal twitter account asks for emotional support, it's really hard not to go "wait, this is.. really fucking weird?"

And if you don't have any doubts, concerns, questions, or even a little voice in the back of your head going "this is a unusual way to advertise a product-" or even that you think that this is not an advertisement at all, I'm not sure what to say here.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,987
Yeah this whole shit with Seraphine has been a walking disaster. And then once the characters abilities got revealed, people got even angrier since she was basically a revamped Sona, so Sona mains who felt their character needed changes badly got slighted.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,254
Chicago
How fun, people can support a fake character having fake mental health problems while I, a very real person, have very real breakdowns and millions of others do the same, all suffering in total isolation and silence.

Fuck Riot for this fucking bullshit, this is disgusting.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,955
Hey, so I agree with this post in that the Seraphine twitter account probably wasn't *designed* to emotionally coerce people into buying skins (I'm actually quite amused by it) but I think you're seeing the forest for the trees (you're focussing on a singular point that other members are making which might not convey what everybody else is thinking.)

I think this touches on a general grievance that people have when it comes to specific modern marketing, some examples of which have been posted already in this thread.



Let's take this tweet, for instance. There's no buildup to this punchline, that's the tweet. A juice brand is posting about depression. Is this a joke? Is this is real? We don't know. If you heard someone say this in real life out of context, you'd be a little alarmed. But by context, you would assume this is a joke. People do that in real life too, that's modern humour.

So if you heard this in real life even as a joke, you'd be like "oh ha, he's just being self-depreciative."

But this is not a person in real life making a casual joke. This is a goddamn juice brand. Why are they making this joke? Is it just for fun? These are the questions that come to mind whenever I see a tweet like this.

Let's shift gears a little into another example where a brand is giving us something that isn't a direct advertisement:



This is a mildly infamous commercial where the supposed intent is to show goodwill and promote peace out unity. It has been rightfully lambasted because even when that commercial came out people did not view law enforcement in a positive light, to say the least. Viewing this video in 2020? Well.

So again, we ask questions: why was this commercial made? Was it to promote support for law enforcement and to help bridge the divide?

I know these might seem unrelated (and unproportional compared to a video game twitter ARG-lite account,) and maybe you already have seen and agreed that these tweets/videos have concerns that people have rightfully brought up. But I want to reinforce the common thread is here is that marketing is crossing boundaries in that it's trying not to pass itself as marketing. This is not great. This is a tiny* bit dystopian

*it's bad, man

I feel weird typing this out, because this happens.. so much nowadays, and I do not claim to be succinct in explaining this (there are good videos out there, but I'm making this post because maybe it's easier to digest.)

My friends are into K-Pop, Idols, Vtubers. I ain't about that life but I can't help but get drawn into it sometimes and I admit there's fun stuff, and as I mentioned I have been amused by the Seraphine twitter account, but when a juice brand starts talking about depression, when a cola brand promotes peace between the public and law enforcement, when a fictional video game character's faux-personal twitter account asks for emotional support, it's really hard not to go "wait, this is.. really fucking weird?"

And if you don't have any doubts, concerns, questions, or even a little voice in the back of your head going "this is a unusual way to advertise a product-" or even that you think that this is not an advertisement at all, I'm not sure what to say here.


That juice brand was subtweeting. It was using the language of twitter, the same way a commercial would call Sonic "cool" even though he has no temperature at all.

Now, you can say that a corporation trying to speak in a subculture of real people is the heights of crass manipulation, but on one hand, that's just advertising, and on the other, you'd have show that the people being advertised to don't get that that is happening and if they do, that they don't want it that way.
 

Saturday

One Winged Slayer - Shinra Employee
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,476
That juice brand was subtweeting. It was using the language of twitter, the same way a commercial would call Sonic "cool" even though he has no temperature at all.

Now, you can say that a corporation trying to speak in a subculture of real people is the heights of crass manipulation, but on one hand, that's just advertising, and on the other, you'd have show that the people being advertised to don't get that that is happening and if they do, that they don't want it that way.

I wanted to really highlight the tweet on it's own because it spread pretty decently and without context I thought it was a good example of 'what the fuck are companies doing' but hearing it's a subtweet kinda just makes it worse.
 

Sai

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,682
Chicago
Doing this through the same channels as "real people" feels to me like people being very concerned about other people "not getting it". There's a number of people here who seem to think that there are people who actually believe this character is real, despite the clearly League of Legends painterly art style and anime-esque proportions in all of her "selfies". Like, yeah, there's probably someone out there who thinks she's real, but there are people on the internet who want to marry Sonic, so there's no discounting literally anything from getting an emotional connection.

Ex-riot employee here. The people that make these decisions care about the actual people playing the game. I was moved over and over again by how much the people that make that game love it and care about the user base. I watched a room full of people in tears over the release of an anime skin line.

lol
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
Wait until we'll all wear stuff like Apple Glass and big corporations will stage events when these virtual characters will appear at certain points in certain locations and fans will go bananas. The next Michael Jackson-level superstar might be a virtual figure. This is the world we live in, folks. These virtual characters don't talk back, they don't age, they don't cause unwanted scandals, they never grow fat or old, it's exactly what corporations would want out of a celebrity.

And yeah, it's all kinds of creepy and weird.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,955
Wait until we'll all wear stuff like Apple Glass and big corporations will stage events when these virtual characters will appear at certain points in certain locations and fans will go bananas. The next Michael Jackson-level superstar might be a virtual figure. This is the world we live in, folks. These virtual characters don't talk back, they don't age, they don't cause unwanted scandals, they never grow fat or old, it's exactly what corporations would want out of a celebrity.

And yeah, it's all kinds of creepy and weird.

If it comes to pass that they are megastars, it's also what the people want out of celebrities.

We get the world we deserve.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,461
Australia
Corny, gross and stupid. Trying to sell your doe-eyed Disney knockoff character as an omg-so-relatable girl next door is lame enough, but exploiting serious real-world issues to garner sympathy and attention for said fictional waifu is on another level.
 

Flame Flamey

Member
Feb 8, 2018
4,628
I also remember some stuff about queerbaiting with the Seraphine account; one of the covers was this song:



And so people were thinking there was supposed to be something going on between Seraphine and Akali in the lore, and I think there were one or two tweets maybe hinting at that, but now that we have Seraphine's lore and VO, I don't think there's anything regarding that, other than her being a stan in the K/DA universe.

I don't want to accuse Riot of being the worst on LGBTQ issues because they've gotten better about it (1 champion is better than 0, 2 is if you count Varus, and Legends of Runeterra has more). But there was a time when characters like Diana weren't allowed to be gay for corporate reasons. And I imagine Riot must have known what they were doing when they had Seraphine sing that song. (Not even getting into how the singers of that song were forced by their producer to be lesbians for that song or something, I don't know the details)
 

Ariesfirebomb

Member
Jul 3, 2018
544
Minneapolis
Riot and other companies doing this definitely is weird as hell, but folks really respond to it. It's almost like those RP accounts you'd see in various anime/gaming forums in the early 2000s. This time it's real time, on social media with a budget of 10k
 

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,514
The point of Vtubers is so media companies can wholly own the brand of a non-existent persona they can repackage and manipulate however they see fit, whilst turning the people actually crafting that persona (artists, writers, performers) to become completely expendable and replaceable so they can be paid dramatically less than an actual individual personality would be.

What am I missing
Well indie Vtubers exist for one. Mostly because there aren't as many moving parts for Vtubers as you are suggesting (There generally aren't writers because the "performers" basically ad lib everything).
 

Zeroth

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
790
Ex-riot employee here. The people that make these decisions care about the actual people playing the game. I was moved over and over again by how much the people that make that game love it and care about the user base. I watched a room full of people in tears over the release of an anime skin line.

Sure, the higher-ups need to make decisions that move skins, but when those goals align, they go all-in.

I also believe that this could be an age gap thing in ERA. I don't claim to know the youngs and what they want, but I'm open to see it playing out. I think we should feel our pulse about why this feels so gross for ourselves and examine that. Do we STILL feel like mental health is between us and our memes and our therapists?
I don't doubt riot employees love the game, but this particular issue is not tied to them being immoral and only wanting money. I personally think this crosses an ethical barrier by trying to humanize a brand with the ultimate goal to make people use/buy its products, and although some may not mind it, I sure do and so seem to do many other people.

And why this is an issue has been pointed out several times in the thread more succinctly than I could, but I will say this: Any relations created by this character is inherently built around the concept of building brand awareness and engaging you to consume its product. It's not natural, and although folks may say many relationships start with inner reasons, this is one that starts and ends with this single goal in mind. That, to me, is wrong.
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,620
This is gross, especially after people like Etika and Reckful.

Nothing wrong with a fake character portraying mental illness in order to help teach those who don't know about it, to raise awareness, and to help combat stigma.

But this entire media campaign is 100% for selling the character. Don't fall for their bullshit. This is RIOT we're talking about. Remember what has happened to their employees.

"I'm sad! Please cheer me up! BUY ME. CONSUME"
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,461
Australia
How fun, people can support a fake character having fake mental health problems while I, a very real person, have very real breakdowns and millions of others do the same, all suffering in total isolation and silence.

Fuck Riot for this fucking bullshit, this is disgusting.

This especially. How dare any company appropriate experiences like this for their tacky-ass advertising campaign.

There's a million ways to advertise character skins without doing this shit.