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Doom Eternal Creative Director Talks Crunch - "I Live And Breathe This"
- Thread starter Bundy
- Start date
What are you most passionate about that you would put your all into?
It's a creative endeavour that requires problem-solving skills beyond what most people on the planet are capable of. I'd say anyone making succesful high profile games is well-educated and making an impact on the world through the consumption of those games, even if it's just a small impact.
The idea that you need to work on medicine or engineering or architecture is silly, nothing more than a social construct. Yes, those might help society more but you do not owe your entire life's work to improving society in the most efficient way possible. You're not a slave.
People can work on whatever they want, as long as they feel accomplished and make a living.
Imagine being so out of touch that you get joy out of shitting on what other people get joy working on.
Edit: Bundy, it's probably worth updating the thread title to mention that Hugo's the creative director/boss. I feel like that's important context for this thoughts on crunch.
OP
OP
Not to mention it's hypocritical if they then don't also say it about books, movies, tv, music, etc. Be consistent!
This sort of drive-by garbage is pathetic and is quite indicative of your lack of character.
Artists crunch. Every artist I work with sacrifices some amount of their life for their work. That's on them. What they don't do is mandate a hundred people working for them do the same. That's the difference between artists working themselves too hard and crunch culture.
There's a balance that can be struck with proper communication and fair work practices. For example, a development studio should not be able to force people to work more than their full time hours, and they also should not be able to cast judgement or shame those who choose not to. BUT, those people like Hugo who live and breathe their work should be able to immerse themselves in it and go as hard as they please. If everybody were on the same page and communicative, developers could have the best of both worlds. No peer pressure to stick around after hours, but if you want to, you could. This is perhaps wishful thinking, but I think that the industry will get there at some point.
I know what Hugo is getting at. I've been making a game and working on it feverishly every moment that I can for months. I'm consumed by it, but I like it. There's nothing wrong with the choice that I have made. Others should be allowed to make the same choice if they wish.
I know what Hugo is getting at. I've been making a game and working on it feverishly every moment that I can for months. I'm consumed by it, but I like it. There's nothing wrong with the choice that I have made. Others should be allowed to make the same choice if they wish.
The way I see it is alot of the things we consume and rely on that we take for granted would not be as far along if we didn't have people who were willing to put in the extra time to make them. I don't care if someone chooses to spend more of their time in the office. That's how many juniors initially start their careers. The only problem is when it no longer becomes voluntary. I've worked through weekends several times because I wanted to. I only had an issue when management would say, "Cancel any plans you have." That to me is very different than me volunteering my time.
Such a stupid take.
It's fine that he wants to work like this, but we shouldn't expect everyone to work like this and thats the problem.
"We have very dedicated people that just choose to work a lot in many cases. It was nice because we want the game to be perfect."
Or you have a bunch of people who feel pressured to work long hours all the time, because people like Hugo Martin are doing it, and you wouldn't know the difference because they don't want to be ostracized as one of the complainers who isn't keeping pace. You won't know the difference, until those people quietly burn out and leave your studio - or worse, keep going on the assumption this is just what game development is, and watch as their life deteriorates.
Which is the ENTIRE REASON the "choice" to work crunch hours needs to be taken out of the hands of individuals in the first place.
If Hugo wants to work at home all night, that's his choice.
Or you have a bunch of people who feel pressured to work long hours all the time, because people like Hugo Martin are doing it, and you wouldn't know the difference because they don't want to be ostracized as one of the complainers who isn't keeping pace. You won't know the difference, until those people quietly burn out and leave your studio - or worse, keep going on the assumption this is just what game development is, and watch as their life deteriorates.
Which is the ENTIRE REASON the "choice" to work crunch hours needs to be taken out of the hands of individuals in the first place.
If Hugo wants to work at home all night, that's his choice.
Yeah it's very different context for a director and a newbie/entry level employee.
A boss can set his schedule to better suit him and his health capacities... The others have to follow him regardless of their needs.
And as a director of course his works/projects is his life style, because it's his name that it's on the forefront of the project... I don't think you can demand to everyone the same commitment.
Painting/Book/Movie/Sculpture/TV Show/Instrument/etc.
I fail to see what's inherently "dumb" about someone choosing to make games their life's work, but not those other things. Other than the enduring stigma that somehow video games are a "lesser" form of creative expression than those other things.
The reason why this is bad for everybody else is that due to perception and how jobs work, the crazy guy who wants to live at his job is setting an unfair image on what everybody else can do. I shouldn't have to work 60 hours to prove to my bosses that I'm dedicated and deserve a raise because 1 person does
I understand the whole, "in creative work you have to consume and study the industry" bit. However, this is just a cover for the pro-extreme crunch practices. As a creative writer myself, it is of course my responsibility and I will need to put in a lot of work to finish my projects--but I am working for myself, not a company employing hundreds of people. Not everyone is going to be "obsessed" and want to work ridiculous hours for a day job. People can also be "obsessed" with the work, just during the normal 8 or whatever hours a day they work.
This "it's okay for me, so it should be for you" mentality is bullshit, imo.
This "it's okay for me, so it should be for you" mentality is bullshit, imo.
When your life's work is the video game franchise that took an existing FPS and iterated on it to a degree that it populariser an entirely new genre of video games that have dominated the last two decades of this industry, you're fucking right they should be proud that it is their life's work.
You've described Carmack and co maybe, but the guys making Doom 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ad infinitum?
I can understand what Carmack was saying about obsession being a powerful motivator, and that people will use that to create great things - so I understand his opposition to any legislation around it - but that said, I think such legislation would protect people and make them healthier, happier, more productive people - so I profoundly disagree with him. Who is to know what people do with their own time, maybe they happily work on regardless, but the idea of a company being able to claw away at more and more of your time because it becomes expected, because there are no protections, because you are disposable, is just rank disrespect.
People can be proud of anything that they work on, but if you're not some kind of genius videogame engine creator / engineer, and there's the remotest chance you're not working on a timeless classic - I don't think anybody should empty the great majority of their life in to things so lightly - not at the expense of their own physical and mental health, their social life, their family and so on.
By all means, if this is your individual work ethic, so be it. But do not subject others to those unreasonable extremes by creating a work environment that revolves around it.
Saying dumb shit on the internet as they waste away.
Saying dumb shit on the internet as they waste away.
I'm sure there are some developer who feel this way. They genuinely want to dedicate themselves to what they do. They feel like the work they do and the things they create is worth the sacrifices they make to the rest of their lives.
However, things get messy when you have a big development studio and not everyone there feels the same way. Some devs may not want to crunch like this and want to have a different work-life balance. Since game development is such a collaborative effort, it is somewhat necessary for everyone to be present when trying to put together a game. So you have some people who want to do late nights while other who want to go home. This latter group will feel a pressure. The pressure to not let the team down or the fear their job may be jeopardy if they aren't also doing late nights. So they have to crunch through peer pressure or indirect coercion or simply a desire to be a team player.
How do you solve this dichotomy where some devs want to work overtime and some do not? How can you have a union if half the dev team doesn't want to strike because they want to continue working, not because of coercion or fear but they are simply passionate about their work? How can you pass laws barring people from overworking when their work is their life?
Some dev studios can make games without crunch but not every game studio is built equally. Some studios simply have crazy workaholics who would crunch even without any coercion or pressure but this then creates pressure for the other people in the studio. I hope there can be an solution where you can have a group of people working together where some can be allowed to overwork while others can be allowed a work-life balance without any repercussions.
However, things get messy when you have a big development studio and not everyone there feels the same way. Some devs may not want to crunch like this and want to have a different work-life balance. Since game development is such a collaborative effort, it is somewhat necessary for everyone to be present when trying to put together a game. So you have some people who want to do late nights while other who want to go home. This latter group will feel a pressure. The pressure to not let the team down or the fear their job may be jeopardy if they aren't also doing late nights. So they have to crunch through peer pressure or indirect coercion or simply a desire to be a team player.
How do you solve this dichotomy where some devs want to work overtime and some do not? How can you have a union if half the dev team doesn't want to strike because they want to continue working, not because of coercion or fear but they are simply passionate about their work? How can you pass laws barring people from overworking when their work is their life?
Some dev studios can make games without crunch but not every game studio is built equally. Some studios simply have crazy workaholics who would crunch even without any coercion or pressure but this then creates pressure for the other people in the studio. I hope there can be an solution where you can have a group of people working together where some can be allowed to overwork while others can be allowed a work-life balance without any repercussions.
To be fair, the views of the writer or writers don't express the view of every single id developer.
If it were possible for some people at a company to feel this way without it creating pressure for everyone at the company to conform to those outlier norms, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But there's no way that a profit-driven enterprise with insane workaholics at the helm won't either select or mold employees to work similarly hard.
From the recent Naughty Dog article, it's clear that in a system with so many interdependent moving parts, people who want to work longer hours rely on other people to also work long hours so that they aren't held up in their own tasks. So the pressure comes from every direction, not just the top of the company.
All that is to say I don't know what the solution is. I think for some people it's beneficial to put their entire life into their work, but for those who don't feel that way, there has to be an understanding and job protection.
From the recent Naughty Dog article, it's clear that in a system with so many interdependent moving parts, people who want to work longer hours rely on other people to also work long hours so that they aren't held up in their own tasks. So the pressure comes from every direction, not just the top of the company.
All that is to say I don't know what the solution is. I think for some people it's beneficial to put their entire life into their work, but for those who don't feel that way, there has to be an understanding and job protection.
This stuff always comes from the top. Which is why in the ND case Sony not commenting was dodgy as hell.
Where I work, management had to remind people that unless they have been asked specifically to do overtime to go home at six as work/life balance is important.
Some people were staying here till early hours rendering and working including supervisors and leads which in turn made others feel they had to stay as well or their 'letting down' their team. When people feel they don't have to stay its better for everyone.
Where I work, management had to remind people that unless they have been asked specifically to do overtime to go home at six as work/life balance is important.
Some people were staying here till early hours rendering and working including supervisors and leads which in turn made others feel they had to stay as well or their 'letting down' their team. When people feel they don't have to stay its better for everyone.
Not to mention the bottom of the pole doing it fucks over others at the bottom who can't afford to do it. Then they're seen as worse workers.
Don't be a class traitor clock out at 5.
This is a pretty good example of one of the primary reasons of crunch/burnout.
Regardless of if it's intentional or not him choosing to work longer hours only sets a precedent to everybody else on the team, that precedent then puts pressure on everybody else to put in those extra hours. More often than not the people that end up feeling that pressure the most are those that are lower level and feel stuck following the example of management.
Regardless of if it's intentional or not him choosing to work longer hours only sets a precedent to everybody else on the team, that precedent then puts pressure on everybody else to put in those extra hours. More often than not the people that end up feeling that pressure the most are those that are lower level and feel stuck following the example of management.
Every time I see these stories I'm reminded of the game devs whose passion turned out to be life-threatening.
No job is worth giving up your wellbeing over.
Also, it's irresponsible of Hugo Martin to make these "live & breath" claims. Despite the fact that people the world over are working harder than ever, the few who read his statements will believe that they're still not working hard enough. Sometimes personal feelings should be kept to oneself.
No job is worth giving up your wellbeing over.
Also, it's irresponsible of Hugo Martin to make these "live & breath" claims. Despite the fact that people the world over are working harder than ever, the few who read his statements will believe that they're still not working hard enough. Sometimes personal feelings should be kept to oneself.
Anyone who has dedicated their life to the recent doom installments WILLINGLY is dedicating their life's work to the franchise.
Let me make some distinctions
- John Carmack's opinion that no legislation should be put in place is 100% wrong. Workers rights and protections against crunch need to be put into law and prevented as much as possible.
- If you're seriously the type of person who becomes obsessive and passionate about their work to such a degree that you are voluntarily willing to sacrifice your social, family, etc, lives and want to continue working past business hours, you should have the option of signing waivers and shit saying that you're game.
But there are obviously going to be loop holes and other shit involved. I don't know the right answer. Maybe legislation with no waivers is the only solution. I'm not sure.
So long as he doesn't force that on those who aren't workaholics then whatever, although I hope he makes more time for his family than what this implies
Yup Hugo not doing and doing it doesn't do anything to his job, to others? Coworkers will hate you be like hey you're not pulling your weight. Then complaints roll in about being a poor worker etc.
Bizarre description of crunch. Not sure who considers reading comic books at home working. Feel like he tried to get a little cute with whether id crunches and doesn't answer the question.