DOOM 2016's regular shotgun is disappointingly weak, and it seems like it's going to be the same in Doom Eternal.

[MaverickHunterAsh]

For what it's worth, I previewed DOOM Eternal recently and the shotgun felt great to me. Super powerful, super satisfying. It was the combat rifle (I think that was its name? An assault rifle-style weapon) that felt kind of on the weak side to me.

That said, I'm not a hardcore DOOM fan and haven't spent much/any time with the originals outside of the first game, so I don't have much context for comparison.

 

[Dictator]

I'm also really confused about the stance on the Super Shotgun in Doom 2 - most of the "pro" Doom youtubers I watch these days completely discard the regular shotgun upon getting the Super. It's an example of really awful balancing if anything, with one very niche use for the regular shotgun (for a job the chaingun does better?)

Click to shrink...

Pump action is great for range and for ammo conservation due to its lateral spread. When I play doom and doom 2 and 64 I always switch between the two!

I completely abused the grenade shot ability the base shotgun had in Doom 2016. I would use the shotgun basically for that feature alone since it was so good.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

wow really a case of bad weapon balancing in doom 2

it's not supposed to be an rpg where one gun is immediately better than another

Click to shrink...

That's not an RPG thing. It's a standard thing in FPS games to have a clearly-defined hierarchy of weapons, and maybe limit your use of the most powerful ones through limited ammo. It was Halo that invented/popularised the idea that every weapon could be good in certain circumstances, and it's something that Doom 2016 doesn't follow, and every weapon you pick up as you go through the game is deliberately more powerful than the last.

 

[Transistor]

Which is what they did in Eternal according to the previews.

Click to shrink...

I can't wait for Eternal. I need it in my veins right now.

 

[Blade Wolf]

The shotgun being an all purpose weapon is not balance.

it's precisely the reason the super shotgun is unbalanced for example.

Click to shrink...

Nope the super shotgun is NOT intentionally unbalanced, even the creative director Hugo Martin said it in a podcast.

It was a mistake to make the super shotgun OP and it end up breaking the balance for many people.

(Time Stamped 5:00)

I completely abused the grenade shot ability the base shotgun had in Doom 2016. I would use the shotgun basically for that feature alone since it was so good.

Click to shrink...

Exactly how I played Doom 2016 every single time.

It's why I'm making this thread, the regular shotgun is too weak and completely overshadowed by its grenade launcher mod. Might as well just replace the regular shotgun with a pump action grenade launcher.

Hugo Martin if you happened to read this please consider making the regular shotgun useful, like useful as a shotgun useful, not ''sticky grande is awesome'' useful.

 

[FelixFFM]

The shotgun has full auto in eternal. Trust me, it's powerful alright. If it was as strong as in the originals, then full mod upgrades and mastery would make it OP and the best weapon in the game.

 

[Blade Wolf]

For what it's worth, I previewed DOOM Eternal recently and the shotgun felt great to me. Super powerful, super satisfying. It was the combat rifle (I think that was its name? An assault rifle-style weapon) that felt kind of on the weak side to me.

That said, I'm not a hardcore DOOM fan and haven't spent much/any time with the originals outside of the first game, so I don't have much context for comparison.

Click to shrink...

Good to hear but I'll have to play it myself to find out.

The ''combat rifle'' is called the Heavy Cannon (this one right?) I'm surprised you find it weak cause it sounds like a beast to me.

The shotgun has full auto in eternal. Trust me, it's powerful alright. If it was as strong as in the originals, then full mod upgrades and mastery would make it OP and the best weapon in the game.

Click to shrink...

No, it would be incredibly powerful but it will cost you tons of shells. That's not OP.

The BFG is insanely powerful but it's not OP either.

 

[Deleted member 2254]

Regular shotgun is absolutely fine in Doom 2016, especially in the first third of the game. It only starts becoming kinda useless when barons enter the mix, but by then you already have the plasma, the rocket launcher and the super shotgun. Just like in the old games, the regular shotgun is a fairly fast and precise weapon that allows you to 1-2 shot smaller enemies like the zombies or the imps, without having to risk blowing yourself up with the rocket launcher or wasting precious plasma ammo. This is its role in Doom 2016, in fact I'd argue it's better in that with the explosive secondary fire mode it becomes an excellent counter to cacodemons and such alike.

 

[nrtn]

If I'm using the regular shotgun, it's because I'm totally out of other ammo.

Click to shrink...

This.

 

[Blade Wolf]

This.

Click to shrink...

This what? What do you mean ''this''?

You think the shotgun is supposed to be a weak weapon for last resort?

 

[SteveWinwood]

That's not an RPG thing. It's a standard thing in FPS games to have a clearly-defined hierarchy of weapons, and maybe limit your use of the most powerful ones through limited ammo. It was Halo that invented/popularised the idea that every weapon could be good in certain circumstances, and it's something that Doom 2016 doesn't follow, and every weapon you pick up as you go through the game is deliberately more powerful than the last.

Click to shrink...

don't tell me im not the one who needs to hear it

 

[Lobster Roll]

I will never understand why shotguns are such a contentious topic in shooter games. In some games, folks hate that it shoots confetti outside of 10 feet. For OP, there's disappointment in a similar vein where the regular shotgun is destroying demons from a certain distance. For decades people have gotten upset about shotguns in video games, and it's such a tired topic.

Video game shotguns are not analogous to real life shotguns. Further, the 2016 DOOM shotgun is designed differently than the OG shotgun. The developers have created the enemies, the combat system, the combat tools, and the weapon selection to all coexist harmoniously. Shotguns are often used as close-range, high spread weapons. In DOOM's (2016) case, it's intentionally weaker to set up the glory kill loop.

So honestly, I'm going to side with the developers who made an absolutely hectic and fun gameplay loop in 2016's DOOM instead of siding with desire to have the shotgun from the original release.

 

[Blade Wolf]

''The regular shotgun is absolutely fine in Doom 2016. It's still super useful in late game you just gotta use the grande mod and not the shot shells dude''

....

yeah, that's exactly why I said the shotgun is weak

having a built in grenade launcher doesn't make it a powerful shotgun, it makes it a shitty shotgun with a powerful grande launcher.

like I said, what is the point? Why not just replace it with a pump-action grenade launcher if you're going to balance it that way?

 

[Patapuf]

Nope the super shotgun is NOT intentionally unbalanced, even the creative director Hugo Martin said it in a podcast.

It was a mistake to make the super shotgun OP and it end up breaking the balance for many people.

Click to shrink...

I know. I wasn't implying it's intentional.

A weapon being useful in most situations (like the shotgun in the original doom) is rarely by design. Devs usually prefer to encourage variety.

 

[nrtn]

This what? What do you mean ''this''?

You think the shotgun is supposed to be a weak weapon for last resort?

Click to shrink...

Not that it was supposed to, but I ended up only using it as a last resort.

It felt weak and slow.

 

[Blade Wolf]

I know. I wasn't implying it's intentional.

A weapon being useful in most situations (like the shotgun in the original doom) is rarely by design. Devs usually prefer to encourage variety.

Click to shrink...

True but you rarely use the base shotgun at all in the later half of Doom 2016 except for the grande mod, that's not variety.

Making weapon A bad so people use weapon B, C & D 99% of the time is not variety, it's poor balancing.

Not that it was supposed to, but I ended up only using it as a last resort.

It felt weak and slow.

Click to shrink...

Agree, it IS weak and slow.

 

[Crushed]

Look

at least it's not the Doom 3 shotgun

 

[XL Hoodie]

The gun is fine. Don't forget to use your other weapons.

 

[Tacitus]

like I said, what is the point? Why not just replace it with a pump-action grenade launcher if you're going to balance it that way?

Click to shrink...

It's not like it's a big secret. You start out with a basic shotgun and you scale it to bigger, better weapons with mods that would otherwise completely overshadow it.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Look

at least it's not the Doom 3 shotgun

Click to shrink...

Hahaha that's one way to look at it

Doom 3 shotgun is fucking garbage, depends on your luck you either 3 shot an imp or 1 shot a revenant

 

[Gunny T Highway]

The base shotgun in 2016 was alright and served its purpose, but the Eternal shotgun seems to be much improved and has more function thanks to weak points being added to enemies.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

The secondary fire (grenade launcher) made it my go-to weapon for clearing scrubs before I upgraded the plasma rifle.

 

[gaogaogao]

that shotgun has a grenade launcher, thats how youre supposed to use it
now there's an automatic mode which is interesting but sounds a lot less efficient

 

[Andri]

I always thought they intentionally made it so it didnt oneshot stuff, so you could shoot, then rip and tear as a follow up to complenent the new abilities.

 

[Blade Wolf]

The base shotgun in 2016 was alright and served its purpose, but the Eternal shotgun seems to be much improved and has more function thanks to weak points being added to enemies.

Click to shrink...

I still feel like the sticky grande is completely overshadowing the shot shells, judging from all the video footage I've seen.

I always thought they intentionally made it so it didnt oneshot stuff, so you could shoot, then rip and tear as a follow up to complenent the new abilities.

Click to shrink...

Yep, I said the same thing in the OP. Glory kill forces them to make the weapons shitty so it has more time to shine.
Was it really worth it? It was cool for the first few hours but by the end of it you're already tired of the same animation being played out over and over again.

We have seen pretty much all of the Glory Kill animations for the basic monsters in Eternal, honestly I prefer to just blast demon to pieces with my gun.

It's funny how people are worried about making shotgun OP when in reality the Glory Kills are what's OP here.

 

[Deleted member 46414]

The base shotgun in this game was designed to set up glory kills.

If you dont like it....tough shit.

 

[Patapuf]

True but you rarely use the base shotgun at all in the later half of Doom 2016 except for the grande mod, that's not variety.

Making weapon A bad so people use weapon B, C & D 99% of the time is not variety, it's poor balancing.

Click to shrink...

You have the super shotgun lategame though. That fulfills all your shotgunnig needs. No need for 2 of them.

The alternative would have been to give the standard shotgun way later into the game and i don't think that would have been a better choice.

 

[Deleted member 34714]

I only used the combat shotgun for the grenade mod too. The other mod being triple shot going into full auto in Eternal I don't think i'll be using that either when other weapons will be available.

 

[Blade Wolf]

The base shotgun in this game was designed to set up glory kills.

Click to shrink...

and it's totally not repetitive seeing the same animations over and over again across 13 levels.

shotgun -> glory kill -> shotgun -> glory kill -> shotgun -> glory kill

 

[roguesquirrel]

Ironic cause this gun is done by id software and they did a fantastic job here

Click to shrink...

Its not. id only consulted on rage 2.

 

[Deleted member 46414]

and it's totally not repetitive seeing the same animations over and over again across 13 levels.

shotgun -> glory kill -> shotgun -> glory kill -> shotgun -> glory kill

Click to shrink...

How many would you expect them to come up with? These things cost time and money...

 

[Kthulhu]

I wasn't bothered by it. In Doom 2 and 2016 I switched to the super shotgun the second I got it and never looked back.

 

[Blade Wolf]

How many would you expect them to come up with? These things cost time and money...

Click to shrink...

My suggestion would be to make it a special execution instead of HP based activation, so that way we get to enjoy killing demon with guns while still able to admire the ripping & tearing.

One way to do this is to implement a weak point system like in Eternal but the difference is only the weak point attacks can activate the glory kill highlight, simply just depleting demon's HP will not trigger glory kill.

 

[gaogaogao]

and it's totally not repetitive seeing the same animations over and over again across 13 levels.

shotgun -> glory kill -> shotgun -> glory kill -> shotgun -> glory kill

Click to shrink...

you could have just said you don't like doom 2016

 

[Blade Wolf]

you could have just said you don't like doom 2016

Click to shrink...

Did you miss the part where I said I played it ELEVEN times on Ultra Violence on both PS4 Pro & PC?

I turned off the Glory Kill Highlights but it didn't make the poor weapon balancing any better.

 

[gaogaogao]

Did you miss the part where I said I played it ELEVEN times on Ultra Violence on both PS4 Pro & PC?

Click to shrink...

found your problem
everything is going to be repetitive then

 

[Blade Wolf]

found your problem
everything is going to be repetitive then

Click to shrink...

I found it repetitive even on my first playthrough, that's why I turned off the highlights on replays.

Again, this didn't fix the weapon balance as the guns are all balanced around glory kills.

I still think Glory Kills are a good idea but I definitely wish they didn't downgrade the guns to fit it into the game.

 

[DorkLord54]

DOOM 2016 has poor weapon balance overall - the super shotgun, gauss cannon and rockets are all you need.

That said, I was fine with the shotgun being a little weaker because putting enemies into a glory kill state is important to stay alive. The real problem imo is the mods weren't comparable to the strongest weapons in the game, but Eternal might address that. The sticky bomb instant staggers cacodemons and blows off enemy weak points, and I have a feeling that full auto may be a sleeper DPS contender.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, full-auto looks like a much more useful burst fire, and is much appreciated.

 

[squall23]

Doom is the only franchise I can think of that glorifies a double-barrel shotgun over it's more modern and efficient counterpart. In theory, that new minigun mode for the normal shotgun should do much more DPS than the super shotgun.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

Good to hear but I'll have to play it myself to find out.

The ''combat rifle'' is called the Heavy Cannon (this one right?) I'm surprised you find it weak cause it sounds like a beast to me.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's the one. Thanks! For sure, don't necessarily take my word for it; that's just my anecdotal experience as a casual DOOM (and FPS in general) player. But yeah, every time I switched from the shotgun to the heavy cannon, it just felt like I was sacrificing a significant amount of power for range (which is a worthy trade-off, but still). Seemed like it just took a lot longer to chew through enemies (relatively, of course, since this is DOOM).

 

[Patapuf]

I found it repetitive even on my first playthrough, that's why I turned off the highlights on replays.

Again, this didn't fix the weapon balance as the guns are all balanced around glory kills.

I still think Glory Kills are a good idea but I definitely wish they didn't downgrade the guns to fit it into the game.

Click to shrink...

The Glory kills are important to how the combat flows though. They force you to get close to the demons to get back health. And since health is important, you need a reliable way to trigger them. Which is why the shotgun was balanced as it was.

I love how the game forces you to approach the demons rather than letting you kite them endlessely (which is what one did in OG doom).

The animations are whatever. But the loop is great.

 

[Otnopolit]

The gun is fine. Don't forget to use your other weapons.

Click to shrink...

As a recovering Super Shotgun addict, I wanted to ask about this style of play in Doom 2016. What are the benefits to this fast paced kind of weapon switching? It looks like it bypasses some cooldowns between firing but do the different types of damage result in staggering the Baron in place? I can't weapon switch this fast on a console also, something I hope the devs keep in mind for the ports of Eternal this time around.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Just look at this, it's pathetic.

The zombie at 5:03 took two direct hits from the shotgun at close range and isn't even dead, only staggered for glory kill.

(Time stamped at 5:03)


Anyone who think they didn't balance the weapons around Glory Kill is delusional, and anyone who think the shotgun is ''perfectly fine'' is just wrong.

 

[Blade Wolf]

I can't weapon switch this fast on a console also, something I hope the devs keep in mind for the ports of Eternal this time around.

Click to shrink...

There're 8 weapons in Doom Eternal's weapon wheel, how are they gonna implement a shortcut system for a controller? The d-pad is already taken by other systems.

There's no way around it, if you want quick weapon switching you gotta play with mouse & keyboard.

 

[Atolm]

I don't agree at all.

Classic Doom shotgun for me works almost like a bolt sniper rifle, it has crazy range in almost every situation. I actually prefer it to other weapons like the chaingun for rooms with tons of enemies. Double barreled is cool only at close range.

2016's approach is different and Eternal looks the same. They lack the finesse the old games had which made every weapon viable with the proper strategy. They're more on the trend of ("later weapons =better) that appeared during the Half Life era. With that in mind the Shotgun is the base weaponp in Eternal, which means it's probably going to be shit.

 

[XL Hoodie]

As a recovering Super Shotgun addict, I wanted to ask about this style of play in Doom 2016. What are the benefits to this fast paced kind of weapon switching? It looks like it bypasses some cooldowns between firing but do the different types of damage result in staggering the Baron in place? I can't weapon switch this fast on a console also, something I hope the devs keep in mind for the ports of Eternal this time around.

Click to shrink...

It's just clockner putting out as much damage as quickly as possible. That thing barely had time to spawn.

Here's the gameplay that gif came from.

 

[Zacmortar]

the normal shotgun feels actually too powerful, i hate accidentally one shotting imps when i want glory kills

 

[Smash-It Stan]

Yea the balance in 2016 sucked. The shotgun was a OP grenade launcher and I always felt the airburst for the RL was like 3x bigger than a regular shot. Chaingun got 0 use and could be deleted honestly, just use the rockets from the assault rifle as that shreds and has a small aoe too.

Gauss, plasma aoe, shotgun grenade, RL airburst. Effortlessly rip through everything, is why I found the game so boring. Enemy count was way too low and the upgrades made you way too strong.

Also the game doesn't let you be in a bad spot. Being low up suddenly enemies start dropping health. I just hope Eternal fixes some of these.

 

[Nooblet]

I hated the regular shotgun, yet I know someone who used it as the primary weapon (as in the weapon he'd exclusively use as long as it had ammo) and didn't like the Super Shotgun.

 

[scitek]

I agree it looks & sounds 10x sexier, but I really hope it's not as underpowered as the one in 2016.

Click to shrink...

It probably will be because it's replacing the pistol as the starter weapon in Eternal.