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Do you want Martin to retcon the ending of A Song of Ice and Fire?
- Thread starter Oliver James
- Start date
I agree with the view that there's nothing to retcon. Any resemblance to the show's final arcs will be coincidence - the show took all the arcs, paths, ideas, and themes and so wildly simplified them that it got to what will probably be a similar destination... just in a way that's totally batshit.
If the books are ever done, Martin probably won't have to change a thing in response to the show's reception. He's hinted multiple times that many characters were always going to end in a way similar to their endings in the show, including Jon and Dany. Except what is missing in the show is tons of context and circumstance. That completely change the meaning of events, and frame the characters differently.
If the books are ever done, Martin probably won't have to change a thing in response to the show's reception. He's hinted multiple times that many characters were always going to end in a way similar to their endings in the show, including Jon and Dany. Except what is missing in the show is tons of context and circumstance. That completely change the meaning of events, and frame the characters differently.
Mad Dany will likely be books but how that madness develops will be different and sympathetic.
The Show had a Cersi issue which the books likely won't have
I don't know if she will go raging mad, but I think she will likely burn down KL with those caches of wild fire about, and turn on its people, when they accept Aegon as their savior instead.
They're wrong, Martin told them the ending.
But you're also wrong there is no chance. Martin isn't going to finish WoW let alone a dream of spring. The only ending to a song of ice and fire already came out. Best accept it now.
He gave them bullet points and they played connect the dots instead of weaving a complex narrative.
No retcon necessary. He has laid the groundwork and foreshadowing for his own ending.
No retcon necessary. He has laid the groundwork and foreshadowing for his own ending.
I had always heard that Martin told D&D the very ending, but also told them to find their own way there. Bran as king was probably all he said, and everything else was all D&D - Jon, Dany, Sansa, the Night King, the imp...
My guess is the blockbuster ideas, like Battle of the Bastards, Brienne kills Stannis, Night King being a kill switch for the White Walkers.. were their ideas, and the more tragic ideas like power corrupting the heroine, was GRRM's idea.. but who knows?
Jon leaving north and Arya sailing to nowhere, sound like GRRM's ideas when he said the ending would be bittersweet.
Mad Dany and Bran King are both great ideas I like, so no don't change it I want to see what it looks like well executed
Dany was driven mad by being stuck in Meereen for so long.
I know it drove me mad just reading it.
I know it drove me mad just reading it.
I mean it's his ending, not fan fiction. Poorly handled sure, but he's the one that gave them the end points for basically all the characters.
If he does finish the story I still think a lot of Feast and Dance are going to be viewed as an enormous waste of time that demonstrated he had lost his way in the world.
We have no idea how closely D&D stuck to Martin's vision. He already said the series wasn't faithful to his work. And more importantly, HOW you arrive at the end point is a lot more important. Else we'd all skip the show and books and just read a wikipedia summary.
The real question is which accomplished fantasy writer the publisher is going to hire to finish the series.
Because GRRM is not finishing it, no way. I think after seeing his future plans for the books play out on the screen in this way there's not enough creative fire left to continue writing the books.
Because GRRM is not finishing it, no way. I think after seeing his future plans for the books play out on the screen in this way there's not enough creative fire left to continue writing the books.
+1 to the list that the end of the show isn't necessarily identical to the ending of the books, if we ever get that.
But what i want to say is, even the books make it very clear that the only "good" or rather "normal" Targaryen was Rhaegar (at least from what i remember from my readthroughs couple of years ago ^^).
I don't think this is going to change within the last two books.
But what i want to say is, even the books make it very clear that the only "good" or rather "normal" Targaryen was Rhaegar (at least from what i remember from my readthroughs couple of years ago ^^).
I don't think this is going to change within the last two books.
The show doesn't even have all of the characters the book will have. The characters that were there are on extremely different paths. The show forgot an entire house after they had their shock moment. People that died in the show aren't anywhere near where they are in the books.
Broad strokes might be similar, but that's all it will be.
No the ending is great. You can argue all you want about the implementation, but Dany was always fated to go like her father before her and she wasn't all that anyway.
signed,
#TeamStark
signed,
#TeamStark
I'm pretty sure even with regards to that, the characters that the book has who aren't in the show likely won't alter the basic ending that much. If that was the case, then they would be in the TV show. D&D were given the ending and were all things are leading to reportedly years in advance from GRRM and I guess in terms of cutting some characters out, they may have felt some were redundant or didn't factor enough to the end game.
The ending is going to be
Bran ends up king chosen by some council, which is why the first chapter of the first book is from his POV, Jon will end up killing Dany after she goes crazy and then be given an exiled "bittersweet" ending
Unless GRRM lied to D&D.
I'll be honest, I think it's kind of lame either way. Daddy was nuts, so is daughter, it kinda boils any nuance the character ever had away.
I mean one of the big reasons the S8 ending didnt work is that it was too jarring for the show, too much development had to be skipped over to even make it feasible. The main stuff like Dany going mad, Jon killing her and fucking off beyond the wall, Bran is king, probably would work really well in the books. But the journey there will be so different and actually make sense.
I'd prefer if it was different enough to stand alone, but have no specific ideas of how he should do it other than whatever he thinks is best. I do know people would feel cheated if they finally got it and just got the same story, though. The time for that to not feel like a burn has long sailed.
Dany going "mad" will likely be in the books (if they are ever finished), but the books have already been building up to it while the series didn't. In the books she's constantly shown as being a flawed ruler who is in way over her head and has done some pretty gruelling things when you think about it, after her "live and let live" approach in Yunkai backfired on her. She has lost all her allies in Westeros except for perhaps Victarion, but he doesn't really have an army or anything.
Plus,
there's the matter of Aegon Targaryen who is in Westeros with a huge army and Westerosi allies and will likely easily take the throne and will likely be considered the true heir by most
If I know GRRM's writing, the general populace of Westeros will not respond in kind to a Targaryen woman invading the lands with a host of Dothraki and a couple of fire breathing dragons. It's very likely she will (on the human side) become the main opposing force for a lot of the main characters of the novels.
The series of course went a different way with her entire character and the circumstances surrounding her arrival in Westeros, so her turning into a villain was seemingly totally random, but in the books the legwork for setting up Dany's "turn" has already been done.
I'm fine with the broad stokes of the ending, it's how we get there and the character arcs that I don't vibe with.
I demand a trial by combat.
Given the amount of gestation time that Martin allows for his story, I think there's a very real possibility that he might change the ending, especially in light of the fan reaction to the HBO series. In a way, the show took the hit for him.
The story itself will not change and it isn't a bad ending at all. The problem was the story-telling with the show, since all of those revelation came to way too fast, so it became unbelievable in the end. Like Dany became crazy in a few episodes, while you have multiple session of her being a savior in contrast. This stuff needs time to ease people into the direction.
I agree with most of this. GRRM has always said that the ending will be bittersweet, and as dark as his writing can get, fundamentally he's still an optimist. While GoT at its worst just seemed to wallow in meaningless nihilism.
Dany burning down King's Landing (probably by accidentally setting of the wildfire), but then redeeming herself in the fight against the White Walkers, where she'll possibly sacrifice herself, but save Westeros - seems 'bittersweet' to me
A grand coalition easily defeating the White Walkers with hardly any lives lost (except all the Dothraki, because fuck them I guess?), only to fall apart afterwards to meaningless infighting, because nobody learned a lesson, until Dany burns down KL for no reason and Jon Snow kills her because clearly that was he only way to proceed - that's just edgy nihilism for no reason
(I hadn't even thought of Tyrion withholding the information about the wildfire from her on purpose, but that seems very likely... I hate how they kept Dany going mad but completely whitewashed his character)
And I really hope Nissa Nissa won't be a literal part of the story. Or well, it kind of is with Stannis sacrificing Shireen, but he fails. If the whole story ends up being 'Stannis killed his daughter for no reason because he's not Azor Ahai, but Jon Snow totally is, so when he kills Dany it saves everyone', that would suck royally
I have to think Jon stabbing Dany through the heart is straight from GRRM ... there's no way D&D came up with that on their own.
It's an echo of the Nissa Nissa/lightbringer/Azor Ahai prophecies, but the prophecy can't happen in a literal way because that's just bad form ... Jon kills Dany but the "light" that he brings is basically (and as cheesy as it sounds), "elected leadership" (thus the wheel is broken). So he wins a metaphorical and philosophical battle, not one on a battlefield so much. And he's banished for that.
I'm pretty sure HBO/D&D at the very least had GRRM have to tell them what happens to 1.) Jon 2.) Dany 3.) Who Ends up King at the end of the story. Those are three things he'd have to have told them years ago.
People thinking Martin doesn't have a rough outline including the ending is insane. As a writer you don't wing it from page to page. he has an ending and plotline for the books established years before the first episode of the TV show was even produced. No way do you write a series of books like that without it, and I am pretty sure HBO had those for the show. Biggest problem they had is that the tv show should have been 3 seasons longer for sure to establish those plotlines better in the show.
And I doubt it's a thing in the books. The whole message of the books is that the children can rise above their birth and societal biases against them - Jon being a bastard, Dany being the mad king's daughter, Tyrion being the imp, Arya not able to fit in, Bran is a cripple etc. The show's ending was basically like tough luck - one is exactly what society deemed one to be and one can't escape one's genes.
The mad queen Dany is propaganda used in the books by Dany's enemies to drag her down. It's not happening in the books. There are many theories on how KL burns down in the books - including theories involving a character called Jon Connington - but hack writers Benioff and Weiss just using some fanfiction from the internet to quickly wind up the show is most probably not GRRM's ending. We unfortunately will not know since we are not getting anymore books.
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He should just put all the discourse around the the show to one side and write the books the way he would have, had the show never existed. No need to consciously change to become more or less like the story in the show than it would have been anyway.
George R. R. Martin in James Hibberd's book Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon (on the making of Game of Thrones):
I believe the books will already be very different from the TV series. For example, compare season 5 and season 6 with the books A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons (two books of which over 90% of the material has not been adapted). They are not at all comparable. The TV series is a very simplified version with far fewer storylines and political/magical elements than in the later books in the series.
First of all, Bran's storyline in the books contains much more magical elements. The Starks in general are all wargs and have wolf dreams. The fantasy element is rather minimized in the TV series (with the intention of making the TV series more mainstream). In the books, however, that will clearly play more of a larger role and magic will be decisive in defeating the Others (there is no Night King in the books, and George has already made it clear that there will be notable differences in that domain). If Bran will have a leadership role at the end, it will be more likely due to his paranormal abilities as a greenseer. I rather think that Bran will become a kind of god-like figure in the end rather than king, as in the TV series
Second: It's already been confirmed that Stannis will burn Shireen, but I'm 100% sure it will happen in a completely different context than in the TV series. Shireen is now in Castle Black, which is in complete chaos after Jon Snow was murdered for violating the political neutrality of the Night's Watch (interfering in game of thrones by supporting Stannis and collaborating with Melissandre). Stannis is in a village near Winterfell and his position is much more favorable than in the TV series (the Bolton camp seems to be blundering and has no unity). The distance between Shireen and Stannis is now very large, so her burning is not obvious. Stannis would have to conquer Winterfell first (which is very likely in the books) to be in close proximity to Shireen again. Sacrificing Shireen will probably be related to the Others.
It is very unlikely in the books that Cersei will ever sit on the Iron Throne. Her character is merged in the TV series with the so-called Aegon Targaryen, son of Elia Martell and Rheagar Targaryen and half-brother of Jon Snow. In the books, Cersei is a very narcissistic (Trump-like) character who is not popular even with the Lannisters. With her poor governance as Regent of Tommen, appointing incompetent butt-kicking co-governors - she is now infamous throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Such weak governance has paved the way for Aegon - who has now conquered Storm's End (one of the most important castles in the Realm). Aegon has the support of the Golden Company (with elephants!) and the likely support of Dorne (via Arianne) and some "friends in The Reach" (Tarly/Rowan?). Varys and Illyrio seem to be having a lot of success at the moment with their "pawn" Aegon (whose Targaryen identity is in doubt, possibly he is a Blackfyre).
George R. R. Marin has hinted at a succession war between two Targaryens in the next two books, a Second Dance of Dragons. The obvious choice is a war between Daenerys I and Aegon VI (A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd). That works better anyway than a war between Cersei and Daenerys as in the TV series. Unlike Cersei, Aegon would be loved by the people. In the books, there is a very clear build up to the bad image the people will have about Daenerys usurping their beloved king. Daenerys in the books has an alliance with the Greyjoys coming up (with Victarion and Euron Greyjoy) - who do not have a good reputation. Tyrion will soon be at her side (but unlike in the TV series, he is a manipulative Walter White-like personality. Tyrion is also known as kingslayer and kinslayer). The North will not appreciate it should Daenerys pardon Jorah Mormont (a pedophilic, criminal slave trader). The Dothraki and the Unsullied will not be welcomed with open arms in Westeros.
In the TV series, Daenerys is called "an evil personality" out of the blue. In the books, I believe that Daenerys still has good intentions and her heart is in the right place, but that her actions against Aegon will be considered monstrous by the people because he will be so loved.
These are my conclusions based on the last two books released and the preview chapters of The Winds of Winter. There will be a lot of differences between the books and the TV series - that has been clear since season 5. The simplification and deletion of many storylines from the books has the natural consequence that the TV series will have a very different final conclusion. That's the butterfly effect.
I believe the books will already be very different from the TV series. For example, compare season 5 and season 6 with the books A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons (two books of which over 90% of the material has not been adapted). They are not at all comparable. The TV series is a very simplified version with far fewer storylines and political/magical elements than in the later books in the series.
First of all, Bran's storyline in the books contains much more magical elements. The Starks in general are all wargs and have wolf dreams. The fantasy element is rather minimized in the TV series (with the intention of making the TV series more mainstream). In the books, however, that will clearly play more of a larger role and magic will be decisive in defeating the Others (there is no Night King in the books, and George has already made it clear that there will be notable differences in that domain). If Bran will have a leadership role at the end, it will be more likely due to his paranormal abilities as a greenseer. I rather think that Bran will become a kind of god-like figure in the end rather than king, as in the TV series
Second: It's already been confirmed that Stannis will burn Shireen, but I'm 100% sure it will happen in a completely different context than in the TV series. Shireen is now in Castle Black, which is in complete chaos after Jon Snow was murdered for violating the political neutrality of the Night's Watch (interfering in game of thrones by supporting Stannis and collaborating with Melissandre). Stannis is in a village near Winterfell and his position is much more favorable than in the TV series (the Bolton camp seems to be blundering and has no unity). The distance between Shireen and Stannis is now very large, so her burning is not obvious. Stannis would have to conquer Winterfell first (which is very likely in the books) to be in close proximity to Shireen again. Sacrificing Shireen will probably be related to the Others.
It is very unlikely in the books that Cersei will ever sit on the Iron Throne. Her character is merged in the TV series with the so-called Aegon Targaryen, son of Elia Martell and Rheagar Targaryen and half-brother of Jon Snow. In the books, Cersei is a very narcissistic (Trump-like) character who is not popular even with the Lannisters. With her poor governance as Regent of Tommen, appointing incompetent butt-kicking co-governors - she is now infamous throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Such weak governance has paved the way for Aegon - who has now conquered Storm's End (one of the most important castles in the Realm). Aegon has the support of the Golden Company (with elephants!) and the likely support of Dorne (via Arianne) and some "friends in The Reach" (Tarly/Rowan?). Varys and Illyrio seem to be having a lot of success at the moment with their "pawn" Aegon (whose Targaryen identity is in doubt, possibly he is a Blackfyre).
George R. R. Marin has hinted at a succession war between two Targaryens in the next two books, a Second Dance of Dragons. The obvious choice is a war between Daenerys I and Aegon VI (A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd). That works better anyway than a war between Cersei and Daenerys as in the TV series. Unlike Cersei, Aegon would be loved by the people. In the books, there is a very clear build up to the bad image the people will have about Daenerys usurping their beloved king. Daenerys in the books has an alliance with the Greyjoys coming up (with Victarion and Euron Greyjoy) - who do not have a good reputation. Tyrion will soon be at her side (but unlike in the TV series, he is a manipulative Walter White-like personality. Tyrion is also known as kingslayer and kinslayer). The North will not appreciate it should Daenerys pardon Jorah Mormont (a pedophilic, criminal slave trader). The Dothraki and the Unsullied will not be welcomed with open arms in Westeros.
In the TV series, Daenerys is called "an evil personality" out of the blue. In the books, I believe that Daenerys still has good intentions and her heart is in the right place, but that her actions against Aegon will be considered monstrous by the people because he will be so loved.
These are my conclusions based on the last two books released and the preview chapters of The Winds of Winter. There will be a lot of differences between the books and the TV series - that has been clear since season 5. The simplification and deletion of many storylines from the books has the natural consequence that the TV series will have a very different final conclusion. That's the butterfly effect.
my bet is that Aegon invades south while Dany goes north to save the kingdom from the walkers. He takes over and is beloved. Dany is asked to let go of her birthright but can't so she marches south.
When I saw the title I thought a new book was already out and I missed it lmao. Some of you people need to understand what some of the words mean. Yesterday someone was talking about boycotting games they never planned to get or be interested in lol.
She can't join the south because Martell will marry Aegon, and originally GRRM likely intended her to arrive to Westeros by the west after circumventing Planteos post time-skip, since Aegon is taking the East and the South would be his anyway through his marriage. The show had her conquer the west early on after arriving (but since they had no Aegon they had her take an empty Dragonstone), which I think was borne out of this idea.
Tyrion would incite her to take Casterly Rock instead of Dragonstone, just as in the show they take Casterly Rock; kicking the Lannisters' ass in this context would not be too unpopular.
But against Tyrion's advice she then abandons it and takes Dragonstone as he is increasingly advantaged and probably now sits in KL and seen as the hero after removing Cersei, while Dany is seen as the evil mad queen with her evil army. She goes north hoping to "save the world" to be seen as a hero of her own, but succeeds too soon, so the rest of Westeros never believes there was any real threat north. Whatever destruction occurs north is attributed to her and her army and dragons. Screwed, she attacks KL to take it by force because she feels she can't turn her reputation around.
So overall, close enough to the show.
Now obviously, GRRM is probably looking to cut down on something to get there because that would easily be three books considering all the plots that need to evolve in parallel from where the story currently stands. I mean, we're not even at "Hodor!!" yet lol.
No need to. Just actually fill the middle, Dany going crazy and dying isn't far-fetched at all.
People are just mad their faves died, just like another franchise.
People are just mad their faves died, just like another franchise.
Most of the big plot points will probably remain essentially the same and with better execution where needed will probably be mostly liked.The major difference will be the character others have mentioned that was omitted from the show.
I don't think we'll ever get to the ending in the books, regardless.
I don't think we'll ever get to the ending in the books, regardless.
Agree to disagree. D & D were hack writers that wanted the show to be over. They destroyed characters in their attempt to get there and forgot about characters for the same reason.
Also, Dany's dragons aren't big. Unless we're getting a time skip or they grow magically large somehow...even the dragons are different.