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Digital Foundry: Detroit Become Human PC - Native 4K vs Checkerboard Rendering on PS4 Pro - Image Quality Analysis
- Thread starter chandoog
- Start date
I can hardly tell the difference between 1572p and 4k checkerboarding in motion. Even zoomed in the difference seems minor. I do have to wonder what the point is of checkerboarding in this game? I mean it looks slightly better than native 1572 but is also more expensive to run.
Yeah to be honest, I think we might need to wait another 'console generation' for that standard to land and be widely adopted.
Wonder if there are any 60fps games that use checkboard rendering, well the newer techniques implementations of it
Can only think of Rainbow Six Siege but that's early checkerboard i think
Yep
Can only think of Rainbow Six Siege but that's early checkerboard i think
Yep
OP
OP
It resolves more detail than 1572p, they give a good example using Connor's clothing and some other places in the game. The native 1572p image has more aliasing. The CB image resolves elements like a higher resolution than that would.
If you can't see a difference between those two in motion, you probably won't see much difference between CB 4K and native 4K until you're being pointed to exact locations either.
Shame that the thread starts with a troll post.
I watched the high quality Patreon file of this video on my 4K TV. So same screen size and viewing distamce that i play games at. Checkerboarding looks almost identical to native 4K UNTIL the image is zoomed in to reveal the tiniest details. I paused multiple shots to compare. CB looks really good. I would vote for checkerboarded 4k/60 over native 4k/30 for next gen.
I watched the high quality Patreon file of this video on my 4K TV. So same screen size and viewing distamce that i play games at. Checkerboarding looks almost identical to native 4K UNTIL the image is zoomed in to reveal the tiniest details. I paused multiple shots to compare. CB looks really good. I would vote for checkerboarded 4k/60 over native 4k/30 for next gen.
Yeah, I can see the difference between them in zoomed screenshots but I wouldn't be able to tell in motion. I'm looking at it from a smaller 1080p screen right now though.
What about the 4K checkerboarding vs 1572p? Is the difference big on a 4k TV?
Ah nice interesting gonna look up how well they implemented CB with it and how it looks with higher framerate in motion
Also found out Killing Floor 2 on PS4 Pro also uses CB 1800p at 60fps with Xbox One X running same res 1800p but natively no CB
Usually, only in the most aliased scenes do I even notice much a difference between 1440p and 4K when actually playing a game. Motion resolution isn't high enough at 60fps to really see most of these issues when you are moving around in a game anyway. Yeah, a lot of things are relatively easy enough to spot when switching resolutions for stationary images, but not typically while actually playing. That being said, I normally stick to 1800p if I can maintain 60fps.
For any game on the Pro that uses checkerboarding that I've played, I haven't had any issues with the visuals, thinking "Boy, this would look so much better on my PC!". But I guess we'll see how much of a difference there may or may not be once Horizon gets released.
Man, this video just makes how good quality 4k checkerboard even more impressive as you have to go to 1800p native just to go toe to toe with it, with less bandwidth requirements, and it looks to resolve potentially more than that.
You had to zoom in and look for specifics things and artifacts just to really look for it and trying to compare to the same base resolution used for reconstruction you can literally see a simple upscale is not as detailed. Trying to process 4 million more pixels but the image difference so so slight.
Native 4k just isn't all as it once was with these improvements of reconstruction techniques.
You had to zoom in and look for specifics things and artifacts just to really look for it and trying to compare to the same base resolution used for reconstruction you can literally see a simple upscale is not as detailed. Trying to process 4 million more pixels but the image difference so so slight.
Native 4k just isn't all as it once was with these improvements of reconstruction techniques.
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Nvidia has basically turned DLSS 2.0 into a black box developers can slot in place of their TAA implementation. Using DLSS won't interfere with also having a more platform agnostic solution as well.
Hi,
i would not say that 4K checkerboard is better than 1527p. I mean ok there are more details but i also find that there are also more aliasing than the 1527p.
Some people like me can't stand the aliasing and prefer a smoother image than a more detailed one with more aliasing.
The checkerboard 4K looks more aliased than 1527p to me. But in fact i don't know what is more visible in my case, i can't test both settings and i should not judge zoomed images but i can clearly say that i prefer a smoother image with no visible aliasing than a more detailled image with visible aliasing.
i would not say that 4K checkerboard is better than 1527p. I mean ok there are more details but i also find that there are also more aliasing than the 1527p.
Some people like me can't stand the aliasing and prefer a smoother image than a more detailed one with more aliasing.
The checkerboard 4K looks more aliased than 1527p to me. But in fact i don't know what is more visible in my case, i can't test both settings and i should not judge zoomed images but i can clearly say that i prefer a smoother image with no visible aliasing than a more detailled image with visible aliasing.
This video for me was actually about how much temporal resolution 60fps gives you over 30fps. Like fucking hell.
Hi,
i would not say that 4K checkerboard is better than 1527p. I mean ok there are more details but i also find that there are also more aliasing than the 1527p.
Some people like me can't stand the aliasing and prefer a smoother image than a more detailed one with more aliasing.
The checkerboard 4K looks more aliased than 1527p to me. But in fact i don't know what is more visible in my case, i can't test both settings and i should not judge zoomed images but i can clearly say that i prefer a smoother image with no visible aliasing than a more detailled image with visible aliasing.
You will not be playing the game 300% zoomed in, will you? The tiny bit of aliasing is hardly visible at all.
No, but you don't need sometimes to zoom into 300% to see aliasing. It will depend on several thing like the viewing distance. I just wanted to clarify that a clearer image doesn't mean a better image. And Alex seems to say that there is less aliasing on checkerboard 4K than on 1527p which i don't agree on its screenshots.
Once again, i can only talk about screen capture, not the feeling right now in game in front of the screen/TV
It's cheaper on general compute, but not overall. It also requires use of tensor cores that CBR does not, which means anything else you might want to run there would be affected. And as you say, this limits it to only some hardware.
Yeah, but if the hardware has tensor cores already, it doesn't take anything away from your compute units which is what Ms solution is for their BC hdr etc. And isn't tensor cores purpose is mainly for machine learning task, which means it if you don't use them they are not doing anything else.
Ratchet and horizon run at native 4k 30 fps. They can easily run at 1440p 60 or 4kcb 60. Or hell 4kcb 30 fps with better graphical fidelity.
No idea what this fascination devs have with native 4k. Even movie studios settle for 2k for cg heavy movies.
Bruh, you didn't watch the video... If anything I came away more interested in checkerboarding technique...
I hope they'll give us a high framerate mode. With those CPUs they have no excuses. And freesync should improve things if the framerate is too fluctuating.
Nintendo is still a thing. And lately worse than ever.
(Xenoblade Vaseline Chronicles)
Show's how good checkerboard rendering can be.
Native 4k is nice of course but the performance hit vs image quality doesn't seem worth it to me.
Native 4k is nice of course but the performance hit vs image quality doesn't seem worth it to me.
I believe WWII uses a similar reconstruction method at 60fps as well, though using columns instead of checker.
No, that's not what Microsoft's HDR insertion is doing. It runs on general compute. It's extremely unlikely there's anything like tensor core hardware in XSX.
If they're not useful for anything else besides DLSS, why has Nvidia included them in GPUs for years before DLSS was even a thing?
No sure if I misunderstood or I wasnt clear enough, MS HDR insertion is taking performence out of their CU is the point I was trying to make because of the lack of tensor cores for machine learning just like Checkerboarding which require 2X 1080p or 2X900 depending on what resolution they are aiming at the end (2160cb or 1800cb). Turring DLSS is less expensive because GPU only need to render 1 1080p then tensor core do all the reconstruction. Tensor core is part of the GPU but your general compute only ever need to render 1 1080p output rather than 2x for checkerboarding which is more expensive. CU resources is not taken away to render more for reconstruction.
The XSX GPU supports processing 4x INT8 or 8x INT4 operations with a single FP32 operation, which can theoretically "boost" low-precision tasks, but this is a feature of the RDNA architecture in general, not something AMD cooked up at Microsoft's request, and there's no hardware dedicated to this particular purpose a la tensor cores -- it's all handled via shader cores.
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I think what gets lost here is the motion. The stippling and artifacts that CB rendering can create are terrible. See games like Quantum Break, Uncharted 4 and God of War where when still the image looks great but in motion, things tend to break down around the edges. Hopefully this new gen gives players choices more consistently. Higher performance with CB or native resolution with lower performance would be great. I'm also hoping for DLSS or a similar solution becomes the go to instead of CB rendering. The results of DLSS 2.0 on Control and Wolfenstein Young Blood is great and rivals/surpasses native resolution while giving a massive boost to performance.
Alex said literally in the first few sentences they have been impressed with CB. I wouldn't call that "roast".
If the native game is temporal AA and MB - it really isn't IME - and I've been playing a ton of stuff lately in native 4k. Though I guess it depends on exact order of steps - some CBR games do more things at native res.
120fps definitely helps - I'd put up with reconstruction for that without a worry. Although it makes me wonder how well ML based stuff works out - IIRC DLSS had some pretty notable performance implications in terms of per-frame overhead, not sure what framerates it even scales to.
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Thanks for the info, dodge a bullet there. No hdr means not buying for me.
Wtf
Really annoys me when PC versions lack HDR. Master Chief Collection on PC was supposed to have HDR but still doesn't have it. Plague Tale Innocence has it on consoles but lacks it on PC too