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Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,058
But so did PS4 games too. In the end the resolution difference between the Xbox One and PS4 never changed, it just swapped from being mostly 720p vs 900p at launch, to 900p vs 1080p later in the gen, to now being back to 720p vs 900p all over again.
Nobody was talking about PS4 vs Xbox One.
It was about that games on the consoles usually improve during the gen. As devs get more used to it, and design arround it.
Show someone how Last of Us 2, Gears 5,; RDR2 looked and run on their base console in 2013 and it would have blown their mind.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Nobody was talking about PS4 vs Xbox One.
It was about that games on the consoles usually improve during the gen. As devs get more used to it, and design arround it.

Right, I thought you meant in the context of whether such improvements would lead to notably different outcomes in multi-platform games compared to what we're seeing at launch now.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,638
Well great work from DF doing 2 analyzes for the same game after patches. I know much work they have with all the games. Hats off.
 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
There isn't a clear cut reason. Devil May Cry 5 for example on XBSX outperforms the Ps5 version in 4K quality mode but loses in performance mode which makes zero sense from a technical standpoint.

It's a learning curve with the hardware.
That's exactly what I mean. The performance difference should be close but it should always be in favor of the XSX. On paper the XSX is everything a PS5 is just more amped up.
GPU being clocked higher on PS5 is probably the reason. I imagine it's more complicated to properly saturate the XSX's additional CUs.

This is also why teraflops are a useless metric for gaming.
Hmm, I don't think that's the reason. In the discrete GPU space the higher end parts are sometimes lower clocked with higher CU/core counts and they always outperform the lower end parts.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Let me introduce you to this thing called a pandemic and how everyone is stressed out about not dying.

Things will be better in future releases. :)
I guess it's hard to gauge, but what would you say if 1 is easy and 10 is hard. Where on the scala in your personal opinion is pre Covid and during covid sitting? I guess my question is, is covid making it hard, much harder or extremely hard for you gaming developers?
In the past most of this work is done via the drivers and API for developers. Only the ones who really want to fine tune this sort of management delve into manual allocation and frankly that would be a pretty big demand on dev time and costs to have this become standard practice. It'd be especially strange to do this when the competition has actual hardware built into their device to effectively manage the allocation and scrubbing of memory with very little developer input or investment needed.
Definitely could be yes.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,452
Hmm, I don't think that's the reason. In the discrete GPU space the higher end parts are sometimes lower clocked with higher CU/core counts and they always outperform the lower end parts.

Ah good point.

I guess probably just down to the tool maturity then. It's Ubisoft and it's a cross-gen game so I don't think people should be considering this the norm going forward just yet.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,638
Dark1x Dictator does the new quality mode add extra graphical features or improve them or it's just Native 4K at 30 FPS? If this is the case then the 60 FPS mode is the way to go.
 
Mar 8, 2018
1,161
My speculative theory, based on some of the common bugs (like the camera cutscene pan stuttering) being shared between Xbox and PC, is that Playstation (and possibly even PS5 specifically) was the lead development platform for this game. Ubisoft builds and optimizes it for Playstation, and then ports it over to Xbox/PC because they share a unified development platform now.

I would guess that the more performant platform this gen is going to depend heavily on which system is prioritized in development. 4K twins indeed.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,391
EoAFWDCXEAA99Vw


Fanboys need to shut the hell up!
god
Sadly those tweets read exactly like Era shitposting / trolling.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
RAM setup also means that, unless some careful memory allocation is implemented, access to the the "low pool" of memory registers will have a disproportionate impact on average available bandwidth over time, regardless of who is doing the access - i.e if the extra memory is being used by the CPU. It's a weird form of access contention and means that the 10GB never really hits the 560GB/s.
I think we had this discussion before and in the end don't came to a definite conclusion. As I recall some said access contention isn't more of an issue than on PS5.
 

Chamber

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
Ah good point.

I guess probably just down to the tool maturity then. It's Ubisoft and it's a cross-gen game so I don't think people should be considering this the norm going forward just yet.
Well it's also down to a console being more than the sum of it's on paper parts and those low level customizations actually do matter at the end of the day.

Developers and reliable industry folks repeatedly talked about how close these consoles are but it seems like some are going to hang on to that teraflop differential for dear life.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,452
Well it's also down to a console being more than the sum of it's on paper parts and those low level customizations actually do matter at the end of the day.

Developers and reliable industry folks repeatedly talked about how close these consoles are but it seems like some are going to hang on to that teraflop differential for dear life.

That's more or less what's implied by tools maturity.
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,123
It seems John has officially limited who may see his tweets. It's sad that it had to come to this, but he made the right call!

Good on you, Dark1x!
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,695
Cerny is a very smart dude. His custom modifications to the APU's architecture in the PS5, specifically around GPU cache scrubbers and integrating I/O acceleration that frees up CPU cycles, is paying dividends when paired with a "narrow but fast" design philosophy. Just goes to show what thinking outside of the box can do (i.e., doing more with less).
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Still curious as to why this is even a thing though. because as it stands, be it tools/APIs... we literally are seeing a situation where (just going by the numbers) :

PS5 10.2TF > XSX 12.1TF.

It's like that whole Nvidia TF vs AMD TF debate all over again but this time with consoles.
Hahaha what? Are you really drawing comparisons between the widely different architecture of Nvidia and AMD to these consoles, which are both based on RDNA2?
 

OldDirtyGamer

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,476
I don't know why John bothers with toxic fanboys on Twitter. He should reconsider engaging on ResetEra, this place is delightful in comparison.
I wouldnt even want to be on social media if I was these guys . While the videos they make are great and informative and can help with purchasing decisions, they also indirectly feed the console wars . They have to understand that, but im sure reading comments like that is so annoying and frustrating .

Df guys do excellent work I feel bad they always get shit on cause console wars .
 

DuvalDevil

Member
Nov 18, 2020
4,176
Just out of interest, which areas have you both seen the resolution drop to a point it becomes blurry? I thought it was supposed to be a rare occurrence for it to drop to the lower bounds? I haven't tried it too much but went to a few of the more populated areas, did some raids and went to one of the more problematic areas in terms of performance and screen tearing and the image always stayed very crisp.

I wouldn't say blurry but the dip is quite noticeably in some scenes - especially when theres some heavy stuff going on. That said, I do have the luxury with two xboxes and two Oleds and I compared them next to each other. I probably shouldn't have done that because it is quite clear if you have both versions right in front of you. Once you have seen the differences plus all the bells and whistles in graphics mode it is hard to go back - but maybe that's just me.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,847
I think we had this discussion before and in the end don't came to a definite conclusion. As I recall some said access contention isn't more of an issue than on PS5.
This seems more and more likely the cause of some of those performance drops (fps or here res) in bandwidth hungry scenes (demanding for the CPU + plenty of alpha effects like fire and or transparencies).
 

kc44135

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,723
Ohio
So is this the first time we have seen the weaker Console consistently (albeit only slightly) outperform the stronger one in Console history? Are there any similar examples with past gens?
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
So is this the first time we have seen the weaker Console consistently (albeit only slightly) outperform the stronger one in Console history? Are there any similar examples with past gens?
Xbox 360 won almost every third party comparison against PS3, despite being the weaker system.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,401
There's still screen tearing tho
The big frame rate drops were likely resolution related, the smaller ones are probably not related to the res. The high frame rate mode seems to have been a last minute change, and it shows. If Ubisoft keeps updating the game, then maybe they will eventually fix those dips and the screen tearing. For right now its looking like they just didnt have enough time with this game.
 
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Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,992
London
I wouldnt even want to be on social media if I was these guys . While the videos they make are great and informative and can help with purchasing decisions, they also indirectly feed the console wars . They have to understand that, but im sure reading comments like that is so annoying and frustrating .

Df guys do excellent work I feel bad they always get shit on cause console wars .

Yeah, I agree agree with you. In this case, there's much they can do except block the toxicity.
 

bes.gen

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,357
But wouldn't it fix screen tearing issues?

more likely this might be some temporary fix on x as well, while they tackle the actual performance on both platforms hopefully.
its basically easiest/quickest thing they could do to fix frame drops/tearing on series x, where those issues were more pronounced.

that said, i hate tearing so much, even miniscule tearing takes me out of experience.
will definitely invest on vrr display later on the generation, hopefully it will be supported by ps5 by then.
 

Kaswa101

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,749
......

The big frame rate drops were likely resolution related, the smaller ones are probably not related to the res. The high frame rate mode seems to have been a last minute change, and it shows. If Ubisoft keeps updating the game, then maybe they will eventually fix those dips and the screen tearing. For right now its looking like they just didnt have enough time with this game.
Yeah it doesn't bother me too much, but there's definitely still tearing on the PS5 version. Still loving the game but I hope they improve it soon
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,992
London
So is this the first time we have seen the weaker Console consistently (albeit only slightly) outperform the stronger one in Console history? Are there any similar examples with past gens?

According to some, it's tricky to put one over the other this gen. Both machines are seemingly comparable regardless of the spec sheet. Quite the shift from the original Xbox and PS2 days.

Btw, if I'm remembering correctly, we had a brief conversation on BC for PS5/Xbox some time ago. You must be pleased with the results.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,401
I suppose that is true, yeah. Was PS3 actually stronger tho, as in more powerful GPU/CPU?

I don't actually, kinda got off the AC train for awhile around then lol. Did it run better on X1?
AC unity ran terrible on both PS4 and xbox one, and at 900p. In sections of the game where there was a large crowd, the game would run at 20-26 fps on PS4, and 24-26 fps on xbox one. The last time DF or NX gamer looked at the game the PS4 version improved a little. The game was patched 5 or 6 times, so who knows if they ever fixed the game, or achieved parity.
 

kc44135

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,723
Ohio
According to some, it's tricky to put one over the other this gen. Both machines are seemingly comparable regardless of the spec sheet. Quite the shift from the original Xbox and PS2 days.

Btw, if I'm remembering correctly, we had a brief conversation on BC for PS5/Xbox some time ago. You must be pleased with the results.
Yeah, seems that way. And yes, I'm extremely happy with the results for BC on both systems. So many titles running at solid 30 or 60FPS, not to mention res bumps in the many games with dynamic res, and super fast loads too. It is everything I could have hoped for from both. :D
AC unity ran terrible on both PS4 and xbox one, and at 900p. In sections of the game where there was a large crowd, the game would run at 20-26 fps on PS4, and 24-26 fps on xbox one. The last time DF or NX gamer looked at the game the PS4 version improved a little. The game was patched 5 or 6 times, so who knows if they ever fixed the game, or achieved parity.
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that was part of the reason I never bothered with Unity, lol.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Expecting further patches for better perf.
 

TimPV3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
631
User Banned (3 Days) - Platform Warring
To summarize the excuses in this thread:

1. Xbox Series X performs worse because of COVID (unless PS5 is worse, then it's just because it's weaker).
2. Microsoft will improve dev tools for Xbox Series X while Sony will sit on their hands the rest of the gen.
3. Games couldn't be submitted to Microsoft until June or July, but PS5 dev kits have been finished since the week after PS4 launch.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
Xbox 360 won almost every third party comparison against PS3, despite being the weaker system.
That was a different situation. 360 had a vastly better GPU and its RAM wasn't split. The PS3's architecture was very exotic while the 360's was structured more like a PC, so it was easier to optimize. What they ended up doing was changing the culling in graphics engines to better suit the PS3's CPU and SPUs as the generation went on.

In this situation, no one component in the XSX is really worse than the PS5's besides SSD while using the same CPU and GPU architecture - so there's no apples-to-oranges comparison here. The PS5's GPU has a fillrate and rasterization advantage due to its clockrate but it shouldn't make up the overall power differential when optimized - although those advantages do mitigate what the on paper TF lead might insinuate.

GPU manufacturers are going deeper and wider with their GPUs, so I'd expect as the generation goes on, as engines are tailored to those GPUs, that the fast and narrow advantages will dissipate more. But by like 5-10% rather than 17%.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
To summarize the excuses in this thread:

1. Xbox Series X performs worse because of COVID (unless PS5 is worse, then it's just because it's weaker).
2. Microsoft will improve dev tools for Xbox Series X while Sony will sit on their hands the rest of the gen.
3. Games couldn't be submitted to Microsoft until June or July, but PS5 dev kits have been finished since the week after PS4 launch.
Did someone insult your favorite plastic toy? Anyways here are your bullet points...
  • Wrong. Covid is used to explain the bugs and problems in all versions. It's not about PS vs Xbox and how those perform.
  • Nobody said this. Of course everyone will improve the tools. However due to the nature of Xbox tools coming in hotter and being more different than PS tools compared to last gen, PS tools have less of a learning curve. This has a impact. How much? Nobody knows.
  • What are you talking about?
That was a different situation. 360 had a vastly better GPU and its RAM wasn't split. The PS3's architecture was very exotic while the 360's was structured more like a PC, so it was easier to optimize. What they ended up doing was changing the culling in graphics engines to better suit the PS3's CPU and SPUs.

In this situation, no one component in the XSX is really worse than the PS5's besides SSD while using the same CPU and GPU architecture - so there's no apples-to-oranges comparison here. The PS5's GPU has a fillrate and rasterization advantage due to its clockrate but it shouldn't make up the overall power differential when optimized.
I know and agree with you. The situation can't be compared, which I didn't do. Series X isn't a PS3 (exotic architecture).
 
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metal

Banned
Nov 26, 2020
1,251
I thought I could play 30fps since I always played past AC games at that.

Immediately switched it back to performance /default mode. Felt like a slideshow. Would probably have been fine if I started the game at 30fps but there is no going back now. 60fps just feels so much smoother.