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Devs react to PS5 specs - Twitter edition
- Thread starter Equanimity
- Start date
That's also what I understood too. The texture is created by artists but it's different from the asset already being textured and fully loaded from the drive.
Well of course you'll have your hyperbole filter active when reading this forum :)
So I've only read the past page and a half (bear with me), but Sony's approach is interesting because their box is seeking to change the way developers make their games. The PS4 was crazy because they had a massive (at the time) 8GBs of really high end RAM, but they still had a slow 5400RPM HDD. That meant as a dev it was essential to keep that 8GBs filled with "hot" data because your load times drove off a cliff as soon as you had to grab anything from the HDD. By doubling the RAM (a modest bump) and bringing the SSD read time up a massive amount in the PS5 they've greatly reduced the penalty for grabbing data from disk. While the XSX reduces this penalty by the fact it's got an SSD, their box looks to keep the power balance of the previous generation.
This upcoming gen reminds me of the PS2 / XBOX / GCN generations and before. Both consoles are going to be powerful, but in completely different ways.
Well when you say "much more" than 200W, I also don't expect it to peak over 250W. People who did teardowns of the XSX found out the PSU is rated for 255W+60W. I'm gonna extrapolate from existing Navi and Zen2 chips.
Usually, the GPU at 1850/1900MHz and 36CUs consumes 190 to 220W, an eight core CPU usually consumes 80 to 110W.
- Removing SMT shaves 15% of the power consumption. The lower clocks and monolithic chip should allow as low as 60W.
- TSMC N7P should allow 10% lower power for the same clock frequency. Or 7% higher clocks at the same power consumption (GPU >2GHz).
- For the new RDNA2, a lot of stuff has apparently been improved by AMD.
- It's hard to say if they really hold their 1.5x perf per watt improvement, if they do, it means 250W definitely fits the design.
- I would still expect higher pow er consumption from the XSX since bigger chips usually overcome a smaller chip even with raised clocks.
- I think the SSD and controller shouldn't participate to too much power, although it's unclear what the ASICs consume.
I'm not a specialist in Macbooks, but I know Apple usually has poor contact to their heatsink and use a lot of inneficient blower fans. Here, the intakes are at least twice the size, and the 130mm should beat a blower. In the case of Apple, they also tune their threshold temperature for starting the fan at over 80°C, hence it's always running very hot, but keeps quiet until it's critical. I'm sure Microsoft was much more cautious. Since it's also AMD and not Intel, there are more progressive voltage and frequency steps because of the temperature.
What's a hidden GPU ? I looked at further posts but I don't understand what you meant.
I would agree that a single metric is a pretty bad way to estimate performance (especially teraflop that mixes frequency, CUs and different functions to produce a single figure). Although, as some people have pointed out, since both GPUs are of the same architecture, it does make "a bit more" sense (but more than no sense is still no sense). Cerny made it clear more CUs is less efficient, but this was more an academic point on bigger chips doing the same work with lower average utilization of CUs. In reality, it's still more powerful. If I was making a poor analogy, it's like comparing public transport systems on two fairly large cities:
- The smaller city doesn't have underground transportation, and the rest of the lines are limited but still cover quite a lot.
- The bigger city uses every transportation system, but the tickets and subscriptions are more expensive.
I very much agree. I don't see a reasonable person looking at the XSX/PS5, saying 'wow this is really powerful' then looking at the PS5/XSX and not saying 'this also looks pretty amazing, or more powerful than most computers bought this year'.
Back in 2013 there were "rumors" that the XB1 had a secret second GPU somewhere. Somehow.
The rumor was from MisterxMedia "officially" nicknamed " Vate " ( prophethood / poet ) in italian gaming forums who said that Xbox One had a dual GPU configuration. Of course ( almost ) no one believed it.
NaturaNonFacisSaltus :
- Curious why you think SMT won't be part of next gen
- AFAIK MS stated that they are using "7nm Enhanced" and nothing as such from Sony. Regardless, no official word on whether "7nm Enhanced" is the same as N7"Performance".
Sony is using N7P 99.99% likely. Navi 10 is N7P. Why would they regress for RDNA 2.0?
They wouldn't. Except I didn't know since last time I asked Dark1x whether N7P was being marketed by MS as 7nm 'Enhanced' on Twitter, I got no response.
Thank you.
They noted some distinction between Plus and Enhanced but I don't recall the difference. Also, sorry about lack of reply, I could not keep up with the messages and tweets. Overwhelmed!
Sometimes they do customized versions of nodes for some customers (read: Apple). I would not expect a console to be one such customer, but it's certainly possible.
Well, it's been confirmed SMT is part of both consoles' CPU, so it's definitely nextgen. However I think it's reasonable to assume some games will want to run with SMT turned off and push as much power as possible in the GPU. A few years from now, it might not be exactly true, but it's hard to tell (PCs and consoles definitely increased core counts over the year though).
Yes, AMD had an initial mix up on the node they're using (I'm sorry, the 360p video makes it unreadable) more info here confirms they're using N7P.
- N7P is a nodelet still DUV-based, but brings 10% lower power at the same clock frequency or 7% higher clocks at the same power.
- N7+ adds density improvements (20%) and further power and frequency improvements. It is the first TSMC node to rely on EUV, and should definitely add significant gains in frequency and power, also yields are expect to improve quite a lot since it requires less manufacturing steps.
Playstation Turkey closed ''Deals and Discounts'' tab in case you didn't know. So accessiblity isn't always the case. No one at Era talks about it because people don't care until nail hurts them.( Please GOD, don't ban me for platform warring mods because I don't!)
that could be ideal hardware for the now dead Carmack megatexture XD
Back when the Xbox One X released and games like Fallout 4 started releasing "4k" texture packs, I recall making the case that it was an excessive use of memory for this very reason.
That's not to say larger textures don't have a place though. For example while a micro texture approach is great for saving memory and representing more up close detail, larger textures are still quite beneficial for open world macro detail, such as terrain in the mid to distant background. Micro textures by themselves give a very noisy, tiled look at that scale. Might sound a little odd to some people, but in this case larger textures' MIP levels can actually improve the look at a distance. Acts sort of like a blur on details that really shouldn't look razor sharp (and aliased). Like its own form of cheap filtering. Believe we are on the same page here.
There is also a case to be made for use of (compressed) FP16 textures to reduce banding artifacts with some key maps. Could also come into play if we see wider use of displacement. And then there are UI textures, the often less thought of but notable hit on available resources.
All that said, I don't think textures are where we'll see the biggest benefits to SSDs. There will be less texture streaming issues for sure, but generally speaking the texture handling in nearly every game engine today will pull in lower MIP levels to accommodate for larger loads. (Some more gracefully than others)
IMO, it's the wrong focal point of this discussion. We should be talking what these faster SSDs mean for things less practical with the HDD needle before. Streaming in stuff like individual mesh LODs instead of the lot, only relevant animations within a given spread of time, etc. Some of that unfortunately though will require a lot of reworking to underlying engine architecture that has been built around the limitations of HDDs.
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In the case of Fallout 4, it was a strong outlier at the time, on account that Bethesda's devs really wouldn't tone down the amount of assets they were streaming from memory. If you can find it, there is a Hardware Unboxed video that shows a linear plot on memory frequency and timings (so bandwidth) where you can achieve over 2x the framerate by going towards DDR4-3200 or DDR4-3600.
QUANTUM ERROR on Twitter
“@Spreewaldgurk10 Ray-tracing is not to far off from doing full dynamic lighting, it’s reacts like real world light. In engine so far pretty easy and results are absolutely beautiful 😇”
twitter.com
just asked him :)
Yeah if this happens early on then it bodes well for this generation!
There has been comparisons to RTX 2080 that got me nervous, a 2080 isn't pushing full RT in 4K at 60fps all that well.
RTX 2080TI isn't pushing full RT in 4k. Least of all in 60fps.
Hmmm... And PS5 is doing it according to Quantum Error. What piece of the puzzle are we missing here? Less demanding other effects?
Thought they said aimming for? Don't think they confirmed it's running it yet
That game looks very basic and not nextgen at all, (to be fair is small production)
It's too early to tell but I would expect 52CUs of RDNA2 to be quite close to a 2080 Ti, especially in RTRT given AMD uses latest, more efficient RTRT APIs and cuts down latency with new shader techniques. However we still have no proofs of performance when running a demo.
Consoles usually rely on quite a lot of upscaling and super resolution tricks to render in 4K. They also might tune graphic settings to fit the framerate target. I mean, Nvidia also does rely on DLSS this generation.
Yep. According to some recent benchmarks I've seen, if you set Control up with totally maxed out visuals including all of its ray tracing features on a top-end of with a 2080Ti, you need to use the DLSS 2.0 Performance Mode (where it renders at 1080p and reconstructs to 2160p using the otherwise-unused tensor cores) to just barely manage an average of 60fps. Thankfully, DLSS 2.0 is apparently really effective, with the quality mode being equal to native 2160p and performance mode being only somewhat worse.
Control lead programmer:
metro.co.uk
Remedy describes PS5 upgrades for Control, hypes up ray-tracing and SSD
Remedy is the latest developer to heap praise on the PlayStation 5, saying that Control will play even better on the console.
metro.co.uk
Ex-Sony Dev: PS5 Will Struggle With Big Third Party Open Worlds; Can’t do Real Time Ray Tracing - ThisGenGaming
Whilst the official specs are out in the wild, it’s still unclear just how big the power difference is between the Xbox Series X and PS5. Since the reveal of the PS5 specs, we’ve seen multiple Sony developers come out and say that the PS5 performs better than the specs suggest and the power...
thisgengaming.com
Ex-Sony Dev: PS5 Will Struggle With Big Third Party Open Worlds; Can’t do Real Time Ray Tracing - ThisGenGaming
Whilst the official specs are out in the wild, it’s still unclear just how big the power difference is between the Xbox Series X and PS5. Since the reveal of the PS5 specs, we’ve seen multiple Sony developers come out and say that the PS5 performs better than the specs suggest and the power...
This literally just got locked as a thread and is the same guy as before who hasn't worked for Sony in over 10 years.
I suspect it came from this podcastEx-Sony Dev: PS5 Will Struggle With Big Third Party Open Worlds; Can’t do Real Time Ray Tracing - ThisGenGaming
Whilst the official specs are out in the wild, it’s still unclear just how big the power difference is between the Xbox Series X and PS5. Since the reveal of the PS5 specs, we’ve seen multiple Sony developers come out and say that the PS5 performs better than the specs suggest and the power...
Mod edit: We do not provide a platform for Dealer or their content here.
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Is he a current developer with a dev kit tho? Let's at least hold fire on crucifying him based on his current employment and see what else comes out.This literally just got locked as a thread and is the same guy as before who hasn't worked for Sony in over 10 years.
Is this some Xbox fanboy podcast or something?
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then you read the article and you see he's talking about consoles in plural. Essentially referring to both next gen consoles which have dramatically faster I/O compared to previous gen.
But that type of headline tends to draw more clicks.
He seems to currently work at a sports technology company (to do with their apps and websites) and has done for the last 7 years, so I don't think so.
- SSD should be ideal for open world, not sure how that makes sense
- we don't have details on how AMD ray tracing works so until then isn't it safer to assume performance will scale with TF rather than number of CUs and therefore differences will be in line with overall performance delta (15-18%)
- we don't have details on how AMD ray tracing works so until then isn't it safer to assume performance will scale with TF rather than number of CUs and therefore differences will be in line with overall performance delta (15-18%)
It got locked because of the caps tho.This literally just got locked as a thread and is the same guy as before who hasn't worked for Sony in over 10 years.
Indeed. But you should read the mod post in the locked thread which might help understand why it is now being discussed here.This literally just got locked as a thread and is the same guy as before who hasn't worked for Sony in over 10 years.
Regardless, the idea that PS5's GPU is somehow going to prevent big open worlds next gen is every bit as ridiculous as the idea that XSX's SSD would pose the same limitations.
Saying that PS5 cannot do real time ray tracing and that Cerny skipped over it is factually incorrect.Ex-Sony Dev: PS5 Will Struggle With Big Third Party Open Worlds; Can’t do Real Time Ray Tracing - ThisGenGaming
Whilst the official specs are out in the wild, it’s still unclear just how big the power difference is between the Xbox Series X and PS5. Since the reveal of the PS5 specs, we’ve seen multiple Sony developers come out and say that the PS5 performs better than the specs suggest and the power...
He talked about in the April 2019 Wired Article, he reconfirmed it in the October 2019 Wired Article, and he talked about in the Road to PS5 presentation.
I think Dictator is pretty confident it scale with number of CUs.
Damn, Members of the xbox council getting some prominent guests on their podcast these days.
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Ex-Sony Dev: PS5 Will Struggle With Big Third Party Open Worlds; Can’t do Real Time Ray Tracing - ThisGenGaming
Whilst the official specs are out in the wild, it’s still unclear just how big the power difference is between the Xbox Series X and PS5. Since the reveal of the PS5 specs, we’ve seen multiple Sony developers come out and say that the PS5 performs better than the specs suggest and the power...
It's been a month since I last set foot on this thread and I knew immediately the bump was gonna be that clickbaity article.
Ex-Sony Dev: PS5 Will Struggle With Big Third Party Open Worlds; Can’t do Real Time Ray Tracing - ThisGenGaming
Whilst the official specs are out in the wild, it’s still unclear just how big the power difference is between the Xbox Series X and PS5. Since the reveal of the PS5 specs, we’ve seen multiple Sony developers come out and say that the PS5 performs better than the specs suggest and the power...
Everybody keeps quoting that guy, who has been former Guerrilla dev (10 years ago). But he behaves literally as some kind of fanboy. His twitter is full with Xbox stuff and he is part of that Xbox Gang around Dealer. There is nothing wrong to be a fan or fanboy, but that makes you a biased source.