To be fair, there is probably a good chunk that are uneducated or mis-informed about what unions can do for them.
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Developers need unions. What actually has to happen for devs to get them?
- Thread starter ObbyDent
- Start date
To be fair, there is probably a good chunk that are uneducated or mis-informed about what unions can do for them.
This is a somewhat disingenuous framing: note that only 16% of developers actually said 'no' to unionization in that poll; a full 75% said either 'yes' or 'maybe', and 9% were 'unsure.' And the trend for union support is growing year to year.
Decades of brain washing. It'll take time, but they got to push for it agressively.
I'm not against Unions. There's absolutely no question that collective bargaining has improved millions of lives across multiple industries.
Just me, personally, given the choice, I would prefer not to unionize my profession as a software developer. If it happens in the future, I'll deal with it.
Just me, personally, given the choice, I would prefer not to unionize my profession as a software developer. If it happens in the future, I'll deal with it.
it's clearly referring to the laws that people want to pass about labor and healthcare... not co workers
It's somewhat of a joke yes... but theres some truth to it
The thing is though, based on your original post here you are against unions personally for absolutely ridiculous and flimsy reasons...
Yea I know. Paid time off, parental leave, protection from arbitrary termination all sound like they really cut deep into that American Freedom™ . /s
1. Unions aren't government-created, they are a collective of workers.
2. The ongoing coronavirus pandemic shows the limits of how well privatization can protect everyone, and that's just one of countless examples.
Extreme capitalism has warped the American work mentality for decades into a circus of shooting themselves in the foot.
Temp workers have it pretty hard, I'm not minimizing it, but It would be an incorrect statement to say none of that exists in the games industry.
American software devs need to realize that the rest of the world have unions and they're not closing shops or impedded by red tape or some shit.
Fucking Dice have unions in the EU.
Same with Ubisoft's collections of dev houses.
Heck if Nintendo's own NERD has more than 50 people it already has a union because it's required by law.
What the ever living fuck are people's image of unions here?
Fucking Dice have unions in the EU.
Same with Ubisoft's collections of dev houses.
Heck if Nintendo's own NERD has more than 50 people it already has a union because it's required by law.
What the ever living fuck are people's image of unions here?
unions are great
thanks to my union i'm getting paid out my full contracted hours even through covid shutting down the campus i work at
regulations can also be important, sometimes freedom comes at the cost of the welfare of your fellow employees
thanks to my union i'm getting paid out my full contracted hours even through covid shutting down the campus i work at
regulations can also be important, sometimes freedom comes at the cost of the welfare of your fellow employees
They will but at least they'll be compensated fairly for it.
Contrast and compare how VAs are treated vs regular old devs in the US.
I'm a software developer, not in the game industry, and would prefer not to unionize as well. I'm concerned about how this would affect wages.
As a creative field, there is wide variance in productivity between professionals. Key players deserve a higher salary than those that are content to fix bugs and do implementations following a standard template. There are roles for both in the industry, but salary has to reflect your contributions.
The only thing I would be open to is something akin to the Hollywood guild model, where there are guaranteed minimums and rules around workplace conditions, and also royalties.
They key problem with software development is that software and, in turn profits, can be scaled far beyond the cost to to create it. Developer should participate in this.
Developers who take a strong interest in their work and put in extra hours to create it should get ongoing royalties or an ownership stake in the profit exploitation of their code. Unfortunately, every time I see people talk about unionizing, it is in conjunction with the AFL/CIO or other similar organizations which don't really understand the unique nature of software developement.
i don't want rigid pay bands and arbitrary restrictions on how much I can work should I decide to put in extra effort. I do want to be compensated fairly based on how much profit my code generates.
As a creative field, there is wide variance in productivity between professionals. Key players deserve a higher salary than those that are content to fix bugs and do implementations following a standard template. There are roles for both in the industry, but salary has to reflect your contributions.
The only thing I would be open to is something akin to the Hollywood guild model, where there are guaranteed minimums and rules around workplace conditions, and also royalties.
They key problem with software development is that software and, in turn profits, can be scaled far beyond the cost to to create it. Developer should participate in this.
Developers who take a strong interest in their work and put in extra hours to create it should get ongoing royalties or an ownership stake in the profit exploitation of their code. Unfortunately, every time I see people talk about unionizing, it is in conjunction with the AFL/CIO or other similar organizations which don't really understand the unique nature of software developement.
i don't want rigid pay bands and arbitrary restrictions on how much I can work should I decide to put in extra effort. I do want to be compensated fairly based on how much profit my code generates.
Sure they will, but then they could also maybe possibly get paid to do it too. Crazy
Or they could bargain down the hours to humane levels across the board
Unions aren't goverment created entitites, they are worker created entitites (that's the whole point, to represent yourself and others working in your field).
Yes and our receptionists are also considered game devs. Your point being?
Anyone who contributes to the creation and release of a video game is a game developer. That includes marketing, QA, localization, all of the roles that are CRITICAL to launching a complete title. I'm going to assume this was an honest mistake, but it's common enough I want to correct it because games don't get played without everyone who works on them playing a crucial part, and they all deserve recognition, not dismissal.
It's Cakely, he's always like that
And to answer the OP, like people have said the developers have to take the first step
From my experience working in the game industry (former QA and Lead UI artist, currently Automation engineer for regular non gaming software). Devs are typically work to the bone like everyone else in the game industry, HOWEVER most of the time they are at least paid fairly well and get good to decent benefits (although still somewhat below the rest of software dev world), even if they never get time to enjoy the money they make or see their families etc... The people who could totally benefit from a Union would be the Testers, for the better of most part they are treated like cattle and have zero job stability. if you're lucky you'll get hired to work as QA directly for the development but most of the time you are contracted and never actually part of the company itself, and for the better of most part are treated like a 2nd class citizen even though you work just as many hours if not more than your fellow other employee. I remember seeing people afraid to tell their leads they were "sick" in fear of being sent home because policy stated if you missed more than a certain amount of work days you would be replaced. Testers never really get "sick" days, and in California were the law states you have to have at least two days off a month, some of the game companies circumvent that completely during crunch time. Unfortunately, the main issue I can see with Testers Unionizing would be large studios, outsourcing most of these jobs and the market would shrink here in (the US I mean specifically) for those fields. Overall a tricky subject. :/
(As a regular non gaming dev I too don't want a Union for standard software development, the amount of perks a lot of us gets are pretty damn good and because it's such a highly competitive field over all if you're a good dev you can make bank. Even if you're not a great dev you still stand to make a lot of money regardless cause dev work is just highly sought after and really well paid over all)
(As a regular non gaming dev I too don't want a Union for standard software development, the amount of perks a lot of us gets are pretty damn good and because it's such a highly competitive field over all if you're a good dev you can make bank. Even if you're not a great dev you still stand to make a lot of money regardless cause dev work is just highly sought after and really well paid over all)
Fair enough, I'm not dismissing anyone.
My company has many roles and they're all critical to shipping a working product. Most of them don't have the job title of "Developer".
This is an issue for me. As a software developers I don't want to be lumped in with QA, localization and other departments, nor should those individuals want to be classified as developers. As Billy Awesomo rightly points out, developers are usually better positioned to fight back against exploitation. I feel for the QA kid who is being forced to work 80 hours a weeks for just over minimum wage. It's a lot easier for me as a developer to leave and find a job somewhere else.
There is a reason Hollywood has separate actor's, writer's and director's guilds. It's so they can negotiate for the unique needs of each type of profession.
Everyone's needs should include:
- 40 hour work week
- paybump for overtime
- paid time off
- parental leave
- etc
- etc
Subdividing the workforce into different cliques is significantly reducing the negotiating power of the entire workforce. There really is no good reason to have seperate unions for separate parts of the workforce within a company. All it does is pit the workers against each other.
I mean you can subdivide if you want as long as there's a certain unity in pushing for similar issues.
I don't think all the unions should be against parental leave and have reasons to present anything but a unified front on this.
These two points are why I don't want unions: "
- 40 hour work week
- paybump for overtime
While this is true, the amount of work each department deals with, from a game development time perspective is very different. The brunt of the work load is typically shouldered onto Software Development, artists, QA, sound engineers, producers, and associate producers, (among a few others) . These people suffer crunch the hardest and typically can't even leave work at a proper hour for days on end. Meanwhile the Business side of game development (publishing companies), typically, doesn't have to work nearly as much as the overall dev team who are building the actual product. Most of these people get to go home on a normal time basis (most of the time). Although every part of game development is crucial not everyone's work load is equal. Some groups of people deserve more recognition than others, but I agree that none of them should get dismissals for what they contributed to the end product.
Ok, I did not know that.
It makes sense, though. There are job titles with "Programmer", right? Or "Engineer"?
Good point. Years of largely Republican fear mongering over unions has also confused a lot of people and dragged the overall opinion of unions down. Also toss in the inevitable few bad apple people and imo you stand where we are today.
I'm not in a field that ever really unionizes at our level (social worker director) but I was a teacher and a principal and a big pusher of unions then. I think more developers would support without that deception.
It's also important to note that while many of us on era seem to think a union is the way to beat crunch we aren't really the people who need convincing with a number that close to half. A union that no one joins has no power anyways. The devil would be in the details for a lot of developers just like anyone else who is considering something "new" in their field.
As someone whose job it is to deal with unions on behalf of management you are very, very, wrong about this.
As a member of a union, what a bizarre line of thought. I have zero "Byzantine" rules. As a matter of fact because of my union the company gives is more leeway than non union employees. The protection I get as well as great pay and benefits makes unionization worth while. I also don't have to fear my job being in jeopardy for any little thing. I don't have to walk around pins and needles around management and to be quite honest management is ultra respectful to me and my union brothers and sisters. This is the type of stereotype that needs to be shedded for people to realize unions are overall better for most professions.
Somebody needs to clarify how this works in the States, because it doesn't seem as easy to join a union as it is in the UK.
Yes. Seems like people dismissing even the idea of unions have never actually read any collective agreement.
Those have plenty of leeway for individual and company level negotiations for extra, but the main things they provide is the secure baseline for every employee; rights, work safety, well-being, base salaries, benefits, process for handling issues/disputes and protections from discrimination. They don't define how people should do their actual work as that is the employers responsibility.
Only change that I can think of to developers daily life might come from additional work safety, well-being and/or general discrimination protections. But those are at the end of the day, for the common good.
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I've said this before, but in my opinion the biggest issue is US worker's view on unions as industry specific. Unions should not be seen as the solution to one specific exploitative industry, but rather as the default dynamic between workers and employers. Having a "Video Game Developer Union" makes no sense, because there aren't that many video game developers, and the needs of game developers are no different from any other software developer or even IT professionals in general. Of course there is a need for some categorizations (maybe don't put game devs and constructions workers in the same union), but the key to an effective union is that it has many members, and that it is the standard. Basically, The US needs a massive culture shift in employer-employee power dynamics.
if they stand up for themselves and do something other than complain about it then maybe they'll see some change.
Unions guarantee overtime pay and prevents you from being fired for refusing to work overtime.
Ah yes, the "fuck you I've got mine"-mentality.
Not to mention that Unions don't prevent you from working voluntary overtime or negotiate for equity, should you so wish.
Unions, at least here in Australia, are the last line of defence against the Government and our employers. Thanks to unions here, I'm enjoying entitlements like paid leave, annual leave, paternity leave, long service leave, capped working hours, pay increases etc.
And the funny thing? I'm not even part of the union. Membership is entirely optional but the benefits they negotiate apply to members and non-members alike. I'm in DevOPs in the Research/Higher Education sector.
I've always been bemused at seeing folks in the tech industry against unions because the industry, especially Gaming, would benefit immensely from it.
And the funny thing? I'm not even part of the union. Membership is entirely optional but the benefits they negotiate apply to members and non-members alike. I'm in DevOPs in the Research/Higher Education sector.
I've always been bemused at seeing folks in the tech industry against unions because the industry, especially Gaming, would benefit immensely from it.
It would require: developers that are affected most to make their voices heard and for those in better positions to not be close-minded and think of the bigger picture, those who contribute to the development that have the comfort of unions (ex: voice) to speak up too, and just in general everyone to keep the terrible effects of the current development environment in the public conscious and say it increasingly louder. Corporations win when we play by polite rules such as avoiding talking publicly about bad practices. You may feel better in the short term about avoiding drama, but corps win in the long term by continuing to eat away at you.