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Contrapoints - Opulence
- Thread starter CoolOff
- Start date
He once made a pretty dumb tweet that essentially read like this: "When LefTube [or Breadtube, can't remember] dies, I'll still be here hahaha", which sparked the whole conversation about the need for an organized leftist movement on YouTube/the internet rather than treating it like a market where you make dough by cultivating a personal brand and carving yourself a nice little audience. If that sounds like something someone like Peter Coffin would argue, that's because he was basically at the forefront of that conversation. At any rate, it's through reading his Twitter that I first became aware of the controversy.
Sidenote, but as I looked for the specific tweet (couldn't find it, sorry), I stumbled upon a Twitter thread that pointed out that his recent tweet about Contra's new vid was posted before the controversy started. For all we know, he didn't even know Buck Angel was in it, or who he was exactly. That said, it's not like he came out and addressed the whole thing after the controversy started, so yeah.
In fairness, Coffin tweets too goddamn much, and his prose can be quite abstract and nebulous. His ideas can be interesting, but his style is laborious.
He also has a more recent thread about being non-binary. I had to read his tweets all the way back from a week ago (hope you're proud of what you made me do :p) to find this. His takes on controversies, whether you agree with them or not - I'm honestly not sure where I stand on this -, seem to be pretty consistent at least. It's pretty much "social media bad, fewer controversies, more organizing, let's get shit done people".
Gutian had a pretty good video on addressing mistakes:
[EDIT] Yeah, I doubt Hbomb would call Contrapoints a "shithead" even if they had a falling out lol. This is definitely aimed at Buck Angel, who's found a friend in non-other that Graham Linehan/Glinner. Hbomb raised 300k+ dollars for a charity just to spite Glinner, so yeah.
Is...is this what it feels like to have power and influence?! BWAHAHA! Screw this anarcho shit, this is my life now. Thanks for fishing that tweet out for me!
Oh, that makes more sense then. Thanks for pointing that out!
Also quite loved Gutian's video response, very eloquent on the subject, and insightful. Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks for the response, appreciated.
I thought the PT tweet regarding this current event was before but the timing of it couldn't have been worse lol.
Could just be a harmless tweet that retroactively looks bad or could be an example of knowing that Natalie will eventually do something bad enough to get 'cancelled' and that he would die on that hill with her.
Either way, it's a hard situation to be in. Ultimately it's her problem and she has to respond accordingly but on the other hand if you are publicly a friend of someone and also a public figure and have collaborated with them then it only helps to be honest and transparent about your thoughts on the matter.
I mean at the end of the day, all of left tube simply provide their opinions on things for a living so its only fair to expect them to share their opinion on something that either directly or indirectly connects to them and is causing lefty audience members harm.
Double post but philosophy tube has responded:
Have to say, its a really shit comment.
Like it starts off with a blanket, supportive statement about trans and nonbinary people, goes onto his own personal harassment (never acceptable of course) and then pimps his next video.
Not once does he actually acknowledge the actual problem or even hint at it.
FFS.
Have to say, its a really shit comment.
Like it starts off with a blanket, supportive statement about trans and nonbinary people, goes onto his own personal harassment (never acceptable of course) and then pimps his next video.
Not once does he actually acknowledge the actual problem or even hint at it.
FFS.
Let's get some key points out of the way:
- I'm also empathetic and understanding toward people
- I'm not worn down by her and equally hope she learns from mistakes
- I am able to both criticise her and support her in wanting to do better
It's also misplaced and prettified language, which is my second issue. "Being human" and making mistakes isn't synonymous with being an outspoken advocate for trans rights and then promoting a well-known transphobe. Nor is it synonymous with patterns of behaviour that result in a specific minority within the LGBT community being targeted. We aren't talking about writing the wrong address on an envelope and this isn't the first time these issues have come up.
Saying "she also is a human being" within the context of inviting a transmedicalist onto her show makes no sense other than to blunt or dismiss criticism levelled at her. It's wasn't an accident, it was a conscious choice in the full knowledge of the past issues she's had with the non-binary community. That isn't an "only human" level of error and treating it as one is dismissive by nature.
The term "growth" as used as well, to say what - the ability to learn from ones mistakes? When used in response to criticism though it's not saying that, it's also saying the ability to forgive them. Do you think those taking issue wouldn't want to see her desist in making these repeat mistakes? The forgiveness however surely rests eventually on that next action having learned from them. Which isn't happening.
So, ultimately, it boils down to not really getting what you're trying to say. I want to see her improve and stop making the mistakes that negatively affect part of the community. I support her and wish for her to do well, and would never wish harm upon her. I am also critical of her for recent remarks and decisions. She may not have chosen the heights she has but then again, if I'm at the top of a skyscraper I'm less inclined to try acrobatics. If I do and slip and catch myself then I might consider being more careful the next time I try.
This is a repeat issue that has recurred and people are misplaced in remarking on the extent to which they're able to offer forgiveness and hope to the acts that didn't affect them. Even outside of impact, the notion that we should move to inherently excuse actions when they amount to repeatedly deciding to publicly tweet in a way that is critical and dismissive of non-binary people or inviting someone on that dismisses their existence entirely is poor.
There's an enormous amount of effort in padding Natalie and treating her as a delicate flower needing to grow, with zero mind paid to the flowers trampled on in order to do so.
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Came in here to post the tweet. I agree, it's shit. It's a non-statement. It's a plug for his upcoming video, and not a whole lot else. Disappointed to see Hbomb retweet this as if giving his tacit approval.
I just don't understand why it's so fucking hard for people to understand.
Like I'm a cishet guy and yet I can easily see the problem with this yet I'm to believe people who talk about philosophy, society and marginalised people regularly don't see the problem with shitty responses like this?
Yeah, that's the exact position I'm in. It's impossible for someone like Olly not to understand what's happening here, and it feels so disingenuous in light of how smart of a guy he actually is. I understand that he's in a difficult spot considering his friendship with and admiration for Natalie, but he can acknowledge the problematic stuff without throwing her under the bus. I'm not advocating for the cancellation of anyone or anything like that at this point, I still consider myself a fan of both Olly's and Natalie's work overall (although I haven't been into their latest, most theatrical stuff as much), I just want them to show some damn self awareness for starters.
Exactly, there is a way to do it without throwing her under the bus but to flat out not mention thr actual problem just comes across as disingenuous and to placate people instead of actually having an opinion on the situation at hand.
For me personally, after something like this, it's gonna take a lot to show me they actually get the situation and care enough about it to talk about it properly. Stuff like this makes me instantly give people the side eye and, especially who these people are, and in all likelihood will stick with me until they either talk about it properly or I start picking up other problematic stuff and it gets too much for me and I bail on them.
I'm getting really, really tired of people posting "apologies" that do not contain any of the following:
- an actual "I apologize" or "I'm sorry", or even "it was insensitive"-type message somewhere (to be clear, in his case, I mean apologizing for being dismissive of the situation; he shouldn't have to apologize for being in Contra's video, assuming he had no idea Buck was involved or who he was)
- a direct mention of the issue, in specific, non-ambiguous terms; he doesn't even have to name names, just to state the facts
- no attempt at deflecting blame and/or no request for sympathy - e.g. talking about being harassed. Only if you recontextualize it in a way that harassers are not empowered by your statement is it okay to mention the harassment.
What makes it especially grating in PT's case is that he makes the whole thing an opportunity to advertise his next video. And HBomb's "heart" response.
At the risk of repeating myself again, I agree with you Dirtyshubb and hjort : PhilosophyTube, of all people, should know better, and be able to articulate his thoughts in a better, more thoughtful way. He's a philosopher and a Shakesperean actor, not fucking ProJared.
- an actual "I apologize" or "I'm sorry", or even "it was insensitive"-type message somewhere (to be clear, in his case, I mean apologizing for being dismissive of the situation; he shouldn't have to apologize for being in Contra's video, assuming he had no idea Buck was involved or who he was)
- a direct mention of the issue, in specific, non-ambiguous terms; he doesn't even have to name names, just to state the facts
- no attempt at deflecting blame and/or no request for sympathy - e.g. talking about being harassed. Only if you recontextualize it in a way that harassers are not empowered by your statement is it okay to mention the harassment.
What makes it especially grating in PT's case is that he makes the whole thing an opportunity to advertise his next video. And HBomb's "heart" response.
At the risk of repeating myself again, I agree with you Dirtyshubb and hjort : PhilosophyTube, of all people, should know better, and be able to articulate his thoughts in a better, more thoughtful way. He's a philosopher and a Shakesperean actor, not fucking ProJared.
I hear you, and I apologize for sounding patronizing, or implying any of the concerned person wouldn't have enough empathy for her. That wasn't my goal in the slightest, I clearly didn't express myself well enough there, and I'm sorry for that. I'm glad you took the time to answer me, thank you a lot, this has been enlightening. And yes, I wanna pay and do try to pay attention to the trampled flowers, but will do better in that regard, as I probably haven't done enough.
Yeah that really isn't doing much of anything, really. It feels like he's also sort of preemptively avoiding future backlash about his video whenever it'll get released, by emphasizing on how he started working on it before any of this ContraPoint criticism happened, and that's just missing the point completely?
Wow, Olly and Hbomb's 'apologies' are basically night and day in how to to handle this stuff. Am I even reading the same apology as everyone else for Olly here? He didn't address shit.
Not only that but it feels like the fact he brought up his harassment is a way to sidestep any further criticism by being able to lump it in with 'cancel culture'.
Again, I don't condone harassment at all and the people doing that are wrong on every level, but bring that up separately otherwise all it does is overshadow the point you are meant to be making and just makes you come across as disingenuous.
Just to be sure as well, that was delving into the why a bit - I never doubted your intention as being anything other than positive. You can still come and share some blueberry pancakes Delphine, it's good.
I understand Oliver Thorne (Philosophy tube) is doing it out of self-care to not criticise people publicly after what he's been through but that post is just an advertising nothing burger while getting himself stuck into a relevant topic.
Hbomb's apology? He's made what looks like a preamble to a more thought-out statement, sure, but I don't see any real response so far. Unless it's not on Twitter? Er, also, again, assuming he had no prior knowledge of Buck's involvement or stances, he has nothing to apologize for. However, it's reasonable to expect some kind of stance, given his stated beliefs and the situation with Graham Linehan.
Swap out apology for response then. Their responses to the situation has been night and day.
Right. Still, Hbomb's response is up in the air though. The start of it is promising, but apart from saying "it sucks being associated with Buck Angel", he hasn't said much so far. Basically: I'd refrain from saying it's night and day until we get an actual statement. His response to Olly's non-apology isn't exactly encouraging, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until we get his official stance.
Didn't he just have a large video not that long ago directly calling out Ben Shapiro on the topic of Abortion? He doesn't apologize for the dismissive comments, he doesn't mention Buck Angel at all, and he just gives a kind of broad "Trans Rights!" as if that somehow tells us anything? This is a really bad apology that focuses on how he was harmed and advertises his next video more than anything else
This is a complex topic because beyond the very unambiguously bad core of featuring a truscum in a video, there's a wider context of her past inability to take and synthesize criticism and the non-apology that is a plug for her next video. The thing that makes this complex is discerning good faith criticism from bad faith criticism, attacks from the right versus attacking her position from the left, the fact that minorities tend to be scrutinized much more heavily for their shortcomings than do white cishet guys doing essentially the same thing, and now we're also wrangling with the idea of how much responsibility friends of Contra's with large platforms have to denounce this.
My take is that I thought she was going in the right direction in finally addressing some of her critics with the transtrenders video, but this is becoming a pattern that's really tough to keep giving her a pass on.
My take is that I thought she was going in the right direction in finally addressing some of her critics with the transtrenders video, but this is becoming a pattern that's really tough to keep giving her a pass on.
More focus on parasocial relationships and friendship with no reference to the harm Natalie's caused a marginalised group. Bonus points from 'trans activist' Buck Angel.
this is soooo bad lol. how many times does natalie need to apologize? maybe as many times as she fucks over the NB community
Philosophy Tube is cosigning this as well. And yeah, calling Buck Angel a trans activist is a bit too kind for that garbage
*Sigh* Maybe, just maybe, the reason her apologies aren't being believed is that she keeps walking into the same pitfalls. It's not like all the people taking issue with Angel's inclusion in the video are some shadowy cabal looking for reasons to hate Contrapoints.
I get the sense Lindsay is more pissed to be piled on for someone else's behaviour when she is already very weary of being involved in this shit at all.
Watch her XOXO talk, she does not tolerate being dragged into a public war.
Watch her XOXO talk, she does not tolerate being dragged into a public war.
The writing has been on the wall with not only Contra but the apparatus of Lefttube as a platform for some time. It can't sustain itself on a theoretical level imo due to things like this, but that's a topic of discussion about "social capital" and reappropriation of (social) wealth that is a whole ass thing and I'm not qualified to speak on that.
I'm just struck that so many are so keen to draw focus to a 'doxxing mob' rather than draw any attention to the fact she's repeatedly hurt one group over time. This whole thing blew up largely due to the fact she thought it was a good idea to platform book after she specifically 'deleted' her Twitter because she kept making comments that hurt a specific community Buck denies the existence of.
I don't disagree. At the same she needs to understand by doing that she's drawing lines between white nationalist and... a small number on non-binary people who are responding directly to bigotry? You can't strip the context of why somebody's being 'piled on' or who they're being 'piled on' by. It's clear she cares more about her friend than the group of people she's repeatedly hurt. If that group of people were gay people or black people would she (or anybody else on 'breadtube') be pulling the same shit?
Also I think "the idea that a YouTuber's inner lived truth needs to match up 100% with your idea, is terrifying." is probably the worst thing to come out of this. Deflecting criticism of past biggotry and platforming biggots by saying the real issue is that the person doesn't think exactly like you want them to is such a blatant alt-right tactic.
I don't disagree. At the same she needs to understand by doing that she's drawing lines between white nationalist and... a small number on non-binary people who are responding directly to bigotry? You can't strip the context of why somebody's being 'piled on' or who they're being 'piled on' by. It's clear she cares more about her friend than the group of people she's repeatedly hurt. If that group of people were gay people or black people would she (or anybody else on 'breadtube') be pulling the same shit?
Also I think "the idea that a YouTuber's inner lived truth needs to match up 100% with your idea, is terrifying." is probably the worst thing to come out of this. Deflecting criticism of past biggotry and platforming biggots by saying the real issue is that the person doesn't think exactly like you want them to is such a blatant alt-right tactic.
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Well i mean... she's basically being asked to dump her friend or condemn her openly when she'd rather just not be asked about it at all. By making any comment at all, she's being dragged into a public stoning whether she wills it or not. Which, as she states in the xoxo talk, is just re-traumatizing her when she hasn't wanted any part in it. I feel bad for her. I feel bad for everyone involved.
Eeeeeeh, it started alright, and, truth be told, I wouldn't want her to straight out drop Contrapoints, providing she believes Natalie genuinely wants to own up to her mistakes, apologize and grow up. After all, we're not seeing the conversations they've had in private, and this is not, say, h3h3 trying to reason with racist shitstain JonTron just because they're friends. I also can imagine that a lot of the criticism was unfair or unfairly violent. As Cerulean_skylark said, Lindsay's XOXO talk sheds some light on this.
However, that doesn't justify spending like 75% of your statement basically saying "stop being mean to me and my friend" when tons of people, most of them fans or patrons, have come out with fair, constructive criticisms worded carefully. And you'll notice that many of them - surprise surprise - are enbies. It's not like it's a bunch of alt-righters dogpiling Natalie and her friends based on bigotry. When most of the people reacting are precisely the minority who would feel hurt by the situation, the problem is not them; it's you. Lindsay says, both in her apology and in the XOXO video, that "apologizing doesn't work". Which, I agree, it doesn't... to the mob. But it works on the rest of us. You know, the people who can actually engage with criticism of the content in a reasonable fashion, and are willing to give second chances. Ugh, I almost feel like I should shut up because I'm not even part of the victimized group, yet I'm acting all high and mighty.
Also, Hbomb is being useless, just tweeting out hearts. I guess at least he's not saying anything stupid *sigh*. Ironically, this makes his stance the least questionable so far, but meh.
So far, they've all been either very defensive or evasive. Disappointing. And why Natalie can't address the situation in any other format than a video that is due who knows when is beyond me. I feel it's irresponsible on her part, because it puts the onus on her friends to react on her behalf. Her friends can respond all they want, but at the end of the day, Natalie is the one keeping everyone in the dark by delaying her response, when she has the power to clarify the situation. If she just came out and apologized, none of her friends would even have to make statements, apart from maybe explaining a few details (like whether or not they knew whether Buck Angel was involved).
Holy shit why can't people - people I like to think are good people - own up to their mistakes? Is that so hard? That Gutian video I posted earlier (or was it in the other thread?) was pretty good, so why can't others be a bit more like that?
However, that doesn't justify spending like 75% of your statement basically saying "stop being mean to me and my friend" when tons of people, most of them fans or patrons, have come out with fair, constructive criticisms worded carefully. And you'll notice that many of them - surprise surprise - are enbies. It's not like it's a bunch of alt-righters dogpiling Natalie and her friends based on bigotry. When most of the people reacting are precisely the minority who would feel hurt by the situation, the problem is not them; it's you. Lindsay says, both in her apology and in the XOXO video, that "apologizing doesn't work". Which, I agree, it doesn't... to the mob. But it works on the rest of us. You know, the people who can actually engage with criticism of the content in a reasonable fashion, and are willing to give second chances. Ugh, I almost feel like I should shut up because I'm not even part of the victimized group, yet I'm acting all high and mighty.
Also, Hbomb is being useless, just tweeting out hearts. I guess at least he's not saying anything stupid *sigh*. Ironically, this makes his stance the least questionable so far, but meh.
So far, they've all been either very defensive or evasive. Disappointing. And why Natalie can't address the situation in any other format than a video that is due who knows when is beyond me. I feel it's irresponsible on her part, because it puts the onus on her friends to react on her behalf. Her friends can respond all they want, but at the end of the day, Natalie is the one keeping everyone in the dark by delaying her response, when she has the power to clarify the situation. If she just came out and apologized, none of her friends would even have to make statements, apart from maybe explaining a few details (like whether or not they knew whether Buck Angel was involved).
Holy shit why can't people - people I like to think are good people - own up to their mistakes? Is that so hard? That Gutian video I posted earlier (or was it in the other thread?) was pretty good, so why can't others be a bit more like that?
This ties into something I was thinking about earlier.
I don't think it will go down exactly the same way or to the same extremes but it's starting to feel like a lot of leftube are on the verge of going down the centrist to right wing rabbit hole.
Now I don't think they are all suddenly gonna go full alt right or anything but I'm seeing a lot of similarities to how they are reacting to criticism that you do with centrists who start siding with right wing people because they feel victimised by being called out for their own shitty behaviour or opinions.
Essentially similar to this classic :
Rather than listen to the sane people who have legitimate criticisms they are instead choosing to focus solely on the extreme pricks who attack them. This is understandable to an extent because of the harassment they are getting but these are people who regularly deal with nuance and taking deep dives into motivations and opinions and they need to start using that skill on their own criticism.
I mean if you have an easier time understanding why the alt right feel the way they do but seemingly can't wrap your head around why left wing, marginalisation groups are unhappy, that makes me worry long term.
If this keeps up and they keep circling the wagons I could easily see them starting to sour on 'the left'.
I remember the antifada podcast dunking on lindsay for a bad Tim Burton video she did.
Ironically they compliment contrapionts in that conversation but it was a while ago
Ironically they compliment contrapionts in that conversation but it was a while ago
I mean, do we?
I think people really need to take pause here. In no way does Lindsey defend Natalie's choices. She even offers her own perspective and says she wishes Natalie hadn't worked with Buck Angel.
But the extent to which people are asking her to apologize for a video that (people are forgetting) she wasn't involved with, or to renounce her private friendship with Natalie (that none of us know anything about, really) is unreasonable. And she's within her right to speak on that, because that does involve her.
It's one thing to criticize Natalie. She deserves it and, other than that, I won't speak on it. But there is an effort to isolate Natalie from anyone who has associated her. And that's... problematic in itself.
At least there's always Shaun:
[EDIT] Royalan : that much I can agree with. I just take issue with the disproportionate amount of text devoted to defending Natalie and complaining about harassers vs. addressing the issue and talking to the sane part of her fanbase. I feel she's strawmanning the situation as people wanting her to apologize for being friends with Contra, when the reasonable among us simply wanted her to take on the issue at hand. I don't know about other people in this thread, but I certainly don't want her to apologize for anything, or drop Natalie if she feels she can help her be better as her friend. Yet she's acting like that we're mostly just a lynch mob out for blood. I don't want any blood. I love them all. I just want them to take good criticism to heart and work on being better.
[EDIT] Royalan : that much I can agree with. I just take issue with the disproportionate amount of text devoted to defending Natalie and complaining about harassers vs. addressing the issue and talking to the sane part of her fanbase. I feel she's strawmanning the situation as people wanting her to apologize for being friends with Contra, when the reasonable among us simply wanted her to take on the issue at hand. I don't know about other people in this thread, but I certainly don't want her to apologize for anything, or drop Natalie if she feels she can help her be better as her friend. Yet she's acting like that we're mostly just a lynch mob out for blood. I don't want any blood. I love them all. I just want them to take good criticism to heart and work on being better.
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Honestly I'm somewhat sympathetic to Contrapoints' friends here. I think it's fair for the people putting out statements right now not to apologize, since they weren't really involved with what Contrapoints did outside of being her friend, that or they were involved without knowing that Buck Angel would be in the video. I think it's also fair that they don't immediately burn bridges with someone they've been good friends with for years now, over issues that they may not have actually known about until recently. People's criticisms of her didn't really blow up the way they have now until pretty recently. And it's easy to see a lot of the response as bad faith actors cause usually that's the case when they have to deal with this sorta thing. Plus I could very easily see there being bad faith actors who are taking advantage of this situation to harass them.
That being said, these public statements are terrible. It feels like they don't have any idea of how harmful the stuff Contrapoints has said and done is. The focus is more on how good of a friend Natalie is to them, and it feels like people's concerns are primarily framed as the usual angry online mob. It also feels like they're really setting themselves up to have egg on their faces when Contrapoints' supposedly totally redemptive explanation for featuring Buck Angel in her video hits.
Really I think they'd have been better off not saying anything at all. I don't get the idea that they understand the situation well enough to even put out a decent statement. I also don't really agree with the notion that they have to put out public statements about this at all. It'd totally be fair for them to work this stuff out in private.
That being said, these public statements are terrible. It feels like they don't have any idea of how harmful the stuff Contrapoints has said and done is. The focus is more on how good of a friend Natalie is to them, and it feels like people's concerns are primarily framed as the usual angry online mob. It also feels like they're really setting themselves up to have egg on their faces when Contrapoints' supposedly totally redemptive explanation for featuring Buck Angel in her video hits.
Really I think they'd have been better off not saying anything at all. I don't get the idea that they understand the situation well enough to even put out a decent statement. I also don't really agree with the notion that they have to put out public statements about this at all. It'd totally be fair for them to work this stuff out in private.
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I think this is a pretty poor response to the criticism and issues honestly (below). Can't speak to people asking Lindsey for an apology - haven't seen people here do so. In this she's referencing Natalie as well.
The way you put yourself right here, you're not sounding all too different than the mob you're trying to differentiate yourself from. Natalie did put out a short response and said she's going to say more on the topic later. Is her further response really urgent? If it's what she's working on now then it's hard for me to get worked up. If she put out an unrelated video in the meantime then that would be a worrying sign that it's not coming.
I don't fault Olly and Lindsay and Natalie for finding the thing that's really urgent to deal with is the toxic mob pile-on part specifically and trying to address that part first.
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I think Lindsay had some iffy parts in her recent post. Read alone, it could imply she'd act this same way (refusing to publicly call out a friend) regardless of what Natalie did. If Natalie did something unambiguously more extreme, like platformed a white supremacist who wasn't known for anything but their white supremacy and platformed their views specifically without rebuttal, then I think it would be more than fair to expect people she was associated with to make a response and distance themselves. But if you swap that for a more ambiguous situation (and I argue that the situation we have lands more in the ambiguous middle of the spectrum), then I think it gets exponentially more toxic for people to pile-on in the way that she and her associates have had to deal with. I think what she wrote was meant to be read in the current context; it was a quickly written thing and not meant as a perfect statement of general principles.
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I think this is a pretty poor response to the criticism and issues honestly (below). Can't speak to people asking Lindsey for an apology - haven't seen people here do so. In this she's referencing Natalie as well.
Yeah, this is largely the part that I take issue with in that statement. It ignores the fact that she has had to apologise and clear things up multiple times because she repeatedly keeps saying new and insulting things about nonbinary people. And it says that people will never believe apologies because it's just anger for angers sake, while acting like these are just misinterpreted slights. It's just not a great statement
Where is the response? I heard she posted something on Patreon, but I'm not a patron so I didn't get a chance to read it. Not sure why it's just on Patreon.
I don't know, maybe it's all just a matter of communications or PR. Trying to put myself in her shoes, I feel like a sensible way to handle this would be something like typing out a short tweet where I'd simply acknowledge the issue, that I've been reading the responses and reflecting, and that I'm working on a more thoughtful response in the near future. I can't speak for anyone myself, but for me, that would be more than enough.
I think this is a pretty poor response to the criticism and issues honestly (below). Can't speak to people asking Lindsey for an apology - haven't seen people here do so. In this she's referencing Natalie as well.
Yup. I don't need people who weren't involved in giving Buck a platform to apologize. I don't need Natalie's friends to denounce her, or even make a public statement of any sort. But if they're going to go ahead and say something like this, I'm gonna take issue with it.
It was on Patreon. I get that it's a little weird that it was on Patreon first, but I think it makes sense to lead with a short response quicker in more private places. I think she knew it would get re-shared around a bit.
Her response reads to me like what you said. Personally, I think she should have put the gist of it in a tweet too, but I think the pile-on she's getting is really distracting and she knows that a tweet may invite more of it. Getting piled on from all sides for slightly different things is massively disorienting, and having experienced a tiny fraction of a disorienting pile-on before, I'm not able to blame someone for doing something (patreon post rather than tweet) they think might lessen it for a moment while they work on it more.
I don't know. I still agree with Natalie's original statement and I've talked to a lot of non binary people NOT on outrage Twitter to get their perspectives and to them it basically boils down to "that totally makes sense to me because she's a woman and wants to be treated as a woman...and non binary people may not be". This performative stuff on the Twitter left is too much.
By the way, I thought the wider thread would be interested in this. She's going to attempt to address this in her next video:
I'm kinda done here because I don't want to cop a ban. People wouldn't be defending Lindsay like this if Natalie targeted another group and it's kind of gross that people are doing it.
People wouldn't be "Oh sure, she's made a bunch of questionable comments about race over a long period of time then platformed Richard Spenser like it was no big deal... but we don't know her like Lindsay does so Lindsay shouldn't feel the need to comment at all on her friends history of racism whilst putting out a statement in support of her friend." Because I guess people don't see non-binary individuals as an actual minority.
I'm also really hating the idea of "But there is an effort to isolate Natalie from anyone who has associated her" because that's not what everybody wants. We just want supposed allies to make less shitty statements towards the community somebody's repeatedly targeted if they feel the need to make a public statement in support of them, we just want Natalie to genuinely rethink her views on this or at the very least stop commenting on it like she said she would after her last Twitter fuck up.
I'm pretty sure that nobody here's attempted to dox anybody or even want to see Natalie excommunicated. In regards to friendship it's more of a case that we should be able to be critical of who peoples are friends with and how they handle their friendships (because holy shit they've all had a long time to talk to Natalie about this in private) and not be told we're trying to destroy people's friendships.
People wouldn't be "Oh sure, she's made a bunch of questionable comments about race over a long period of time then platformed Richard Spenser like it was no big deal... but we don't know her like Lindsay does so Lindsay shouldn't feel the need to comment at all on her friends history of racism whilst putting out a statement in support of her friend." Because I guess people don't see non-binary individuals as an actual minority.
I'm also really hating the idea of "But there is an effort to isolate Natalie from anyone who has associated her" because that's not what everybody wants. We just want supposed allies to make less shitty statements towards the community somebody's repeatedly targeted if they feel the need to make a public statement in support of them, we just want Natalie to genuinely rethink her views on this or at the very least stop commenting on it like she said she would after her last Twitter fuck up.
I'm pretty sure that nobody here's attempted to dox anybody or even want to see Natalie excommunicated. In regards to friendship it's more of a case that we should be able to be critical of who peoples are friends with and how they handle their friendships (because holy shit they've all had a long time to talk to Natalie about this in private) and not be told we're trying to destroy people's friendships.
What exactly is ambiguous about this situation that you felt the need to mention a more 'extreme' situation like white supremacy?
Thank you for posting this, I appreciate it. Honestly, I would have been fine with some kind of pre-statement like this.
Just saw that Kat Blaque is annoyed because she, too, is being asked to chime in. I can sympathize with that, especially coming from someone who, to the best of my knowledge, is not closely associated with Natalie (unlike Olly, Lindsay and HBomb). I do feel it's unreasonable to expect the whole of Leftube to make a statement. Personally, I was just interested in her friends's perspectives, and, honestly, only those where it made sense - namely, Olly for being a part of the video, and Hbomb for Buck's association with Glinner. All in all, I don't think I needed Lindsay to even take a public stance, and I certainly wouldn't have called out people like Kat Blaque, Peter Coffin or Shaun to get involved. Shaun's approach was the best to me: just reassure the group most hurt by the controversy, and letting the main parties address the issue more directly on their own.