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Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
These post debate polls are a disaster.
DyM-hTcUYAE4Q4v.jpg


At least Kamala is leading. I don't see anyone but Bernie or Kamala beating Trump, so at least there's that.

Sanders for VP hopefully.
 

B4mv

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,070
So I haven't been keeping up with things as closely as I should. I need a decent place to read up on the candidates, especially now that things are starting to take shape and primaries are a couple of months away. Is ballotpedia a reputable place for this? Gonna be watching the debate I missed as well.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,175


Just so everyone doesn't get too excited.


yeah, I commented in the politics thread about this one- it's not a good poll. They had Warren at 24% (and only 6 behind biden) before the first debate even happened. This is wildly out of sync with every other pollster by at least a good 10 points in her favor.
 

y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
2,481
Part of his base was based on policies. Part of it was based on not being Hillary Clinton. 538 did a good breakdown of that earlier this year laying out that the latter having more conservative options was going to be an issue for him. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bernie-sanders-was-helped-by-the-neverhillary-vote-what-does-that-mean-for-his-chances-now/

#neverhillary is such a misnomer. It basically alludes that these voters voted in spite of Hillary and not because they simply had another preference. It should be broken down further into which voted in spite of Hillary and which simply had other preferences instead of being clumped as one. You don't hear the Obama voters who stayed home or flipped to Trump as being #neverhillary voters. It's disingenuous.

What are the conservative options? Do you think any current Dem candidate can get those conservatives to get behind them like the ones Bernie had already garnered? What about independents?
 

Seattle6418

Member
Oct 25, 2017
528
Brasília Brazil
2016 Sanders got a lot of support based on not being Hillary Clinton.

As for support: (from Quinnipiac)


DEBATE Q6............ ATTN TO PRES CAMPAIGN Q1
Paid Little/
Watch Attn No Attn A lot Some None

Biden 18% 29% 17% 21% 27% 18%
Sanders 8 13 24 10 14 22


Of those who paid "no attention" to the debate at all, 24% support sanders. Of those paying "no" attention to the presidential campaign, 22% support sanders.
This is inexplicably WORSE than Biden's numbers (17% and 18%, respectively).

Of those who watched the debate, sanders comes in fourth at 8%, well behind Harris, Warren, and Biden and barely above Pete at 6%. Of those who pay "a lot" of attention to the presidential campaign, Sanders is again a distant fourth at 10%.

Sanders is coasting on name recognition from 2016 and little else. The more attention one pays to the race, the less likely they are to support Sanders. Without those not paying any attention to anything, he'd be in the basement with Booker and O'rourke.

There is a lot of ways to play the numbers in any poll. On this one, the most interesting number is Sanders leading the field by 5% in the 18-49 age group. So to have him in 4th place with 13% you gotta have a disproportional number of voters in the 50+ age bracket.

If young people don´t show up, then he has little chance.

If young people show up, he has a very good chance
 

Snake Eater

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,385
And the first first meaningful poll isn't till next year lol
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
#neverhillary is such a misnomer. It basically alludes that these voters voted in spite of Hillary and not because they simply had another preference. It should be broken down further into which voted in spite of Hillary and which simply had other preferences instead of being clumped as one. You don't hear the Obama voters who stayed home or flipped to Trump as being #neverhillary voters. It's disingenuous.

What are the conservative options? Do you think any current Dem candidate can get those conservatives to get behind them like the ones Bernie had already garnered? What about independents?
It's not a misnomer when it's describing the voting behavior of a subset of Bernie's 2016 coalition! These are people for whom Bernie really isn't ideologically aligned (his current 2020 coalition is wildly different in makeup because it's shed so many of these types) and who backed him primarily because he wasn't Hillary. He massively benefitted from few people wanting to challenge the person who had Obama's blessing because it allowed him access to voters which he normally wouldn't be able to pick up.

One of the reasons this holds up is because when we look at voting patterns in the 2016 race, the core Bernie/Hillary divide wasn't ideological. It did not draw down straight left/right measures, and the differences were more on feelings towards politics than they were actual ideological differences, with a few exceptions. Figure 11 here shows off where you actually got big gaps between Clinton/Sanders supporters and the intro's assessment summarizes their findings- https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publication/political-divisions-in-2016-and-beyond

[To the extent that the Democratic Party is divided, these divisions are more about faith in the political system and general disaffection than they are about issue positions.

If you truly believe that most Bernie voters were attracted to him because they were true believers in his ideology and policy, you are projecting your views onto his coalition and assuming that everyone else was there for the same reasons you were. Which is always a bad assumption to make and almost always completely wrong when it comes to politics. People are not being disingenuous by pointing this out.

The conservatives that voted for Bernie likely went for Trump in the general vs Hillary and also would have defected vs Bernie anyway. West Virginia's a good example of this.
There is a lot of ways to play the numbers in any poll. On this one, the most interesting number is Sanders leading the field by 5% in the 18-49 age group. So to have him in 4th place with 13% you gotta have a disproportional number of voters in the 50+ age bracket.

If young people don´t show up, then he has little chance.

If young people show up, he has a very good chance
There is always a correct bet to make here.
It's the former.
 

game-biz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,749

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
There is a lot of ways to play the numbers in any poll. On this one, the most interesting number is Sanders leading the field by 5% in the 18-49 age group. So to have him in 4th place with 13% you gotta have a disproportional number of voters in the 50+ age bracket.

If young people don´t show up, then he has little chance.

If young people show up, he has a very good chance
I mean, he's got the lowest share of the >49 vote, ~15% less than other front runners. So even if the young vote turns out greater than usual by large margins he's still losing the consistently largest voting demo by tons more than he's willing the young vote.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Bernie's stump speech is obviously his strong suit and being repetitive is a good thing because this is about advertising, not serialized drama. He also does answer questions while doing so, and his answers are fine.

That's Bernie's weakness among the uninitiated. He's definitely marketing himself, except politicians don't do this by repeating themselves like literal ads they spice things up with speeches, and have variety in their words and phrases because the electorate get bored with the same thing over and over again. This ins't "serialised drama" this is marketing his ideas to the electorate, which he needs to vote for him to be the nominee.
 

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,956
I found this with a quick search:


I remember laughing so hard that Trump was in the lead. I knew right then that it was going to a fucking slam dunk for Hillary winning the presidency in 2016 if Trump was actually going to be their guy. Yeah...
Yep. I remember the posts from the old forum that fueled my belief that there was no chance of a Trump upset.

If I hear blue wall used in a serious manner ever again...
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
There is a lot of ways to play the numbers in any poll. On this one, the most interesting number is Sanders leading the field by 5% in the 18-49 age group. So to have him in 4th place with 13% you gotta have a disproportional number of voters in the 50+ age bracket.

If young people don´t show up, then he has little chance.

If young people show up, he has a very good chance

If Bernie's riding his nomination on young people he's already lost.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
There is a lot of ways to play the numbers in any poll. On this one, the most interesting number is Sanders leading the field by 5% in the 18-49 age group. So to have him in 4th place with 13% you gotta have a disproportional number of voters in the 50+ age bracket.

If young people don´t show up, then he has little chance.

If young people show up, he has a very good chance
You can't win a primary election on young people. You expect young people to be excited about a guy in 4th place? He is quickly getting that stench of yesterdays news. It isn't 2016 anymore.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
There is a lot of ways to play the numbers in any poll. On this one, the most interesting number is Sanders leading the field by 5% in the 18-49 age group. So to have him in 4th place with 13% you gotta have a disproportional number of voters in the 50+ age bracket.

If young people don´t show up, then he has little chance.

If young people show up, he has a very good chance

Young people don't vote. Especially in primaries probably.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Call it a hunch but I think 'Harris is a cop' is going to give Harris a lot of advantage against Don The Con.

I can already see the 'Law and Order in the White House' campaign slogan from Harris. It will be popular in the Midwest and will be surprisingly strong in purple NE like Maine and NH.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,115
Call it a hunch but I think 'Kamala is a cop l' is going to give Harris a lot of advantage against Don Trump.

I can already see the 'I will bring Law and Order back in the White House' campaign slogan from Harris. It will be popular in the Midwest and will be surprisingly strong in purple NE like Maine and NH.

At most her campaign will flirt with implying this.

Kamala herself won't ever go near the phrase "law and order" if she's smart.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
At most her campaign will flirt with implying this.

Kamala herself won't ever go near the phrase "law and order" if she's smart.
Yup I expect the same actually. It will be implicit and won't be seen in the polls, I think. It will defang many of the 'she is a woman' subconscious biases that unfortunately still permeates in the electorate whether they want to admit it or not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,537
At this point I am all in on Harris and Warren

Buttigieg is polling at 0% with minorities and Sanders has become old news.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Call it a hunch but I think 'Harris is a cop' is going to give Harris a lot of advantage against Don The Con.

I can already see the 'Law and Order in the White House' campaign slogan from Harris. It will be popular in the Midwest and will be surprisingly strong in purple NE like Maine and NH.
What type of voter cares about Trump's legal issues but might not enough to turn out and vote against him unless it's specifically a cop replacing him?

Some of you really get way too deep into utterly meaningless cable news narratives.
 

Tracygill

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,853
The Left
It's time to "unskew" some meaningless polls.


Peter Daou
@peterdaou

Interesting. This new ABC/WaPo poll looks very different from the most recent CNN poll, and undercuts the perception that the Sanders campaign is fading. https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/1146359918460583936 …

ABC News Politics
@ABCPolitics

Replying to @ABCPolitics

JUST IN: New abc News/WaPo poll of 2020 Democratic primary:

Biden - 29%
Sanders - 23%
Harris - 11%
Warren - 11%
Buttigieg - 4%
Castro - 4%
Klobuchar - 2%
O'Rourke - 2%
Others < 2%


CeeM4Gp.jpg


Edit: clarified the word unskew.
 
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Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
Polls are pointless, it's just who you decide to survey and that's It, it doesn't show much but who that small portion of people like at that time

Better to look at polls as just that and not give them too much credit, especially how the last election turned out and all those polls
 
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Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,803
It's time to unskew some meaningless polls.


Peter Daou
@peterdaou

Interesting. This new ABC/WaPo poll looks very different from the most recent CNN poll, and undercuts the perception that the Sanders campaign is fading. https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/1146359918460583936 …

ABC News Politics
@ABCPolitics

Replying to @ABCPolitics

JUST IN: New abc News/WaPo poll of 2020 Democratic primary:

Biden - 29%
Sanders - 23%
Harris - 11%
Warren - 11%
Buttigieg - 4%
Castro - 4%
Klobuchar - 2%
O'Rourke - 2%
Others < 2%


CeeM4Gp.jpg

Wow I'm convinced
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
From the ABC/WaPo breakdown:

An impact is apparent: Among the half of leaned Democrats who did not watch either of the two nights of debates, just 5 percent support Harris for the nomination. Among those who watched the debate in which she appeared, by contrast, her support swells to 20 percent. That places her numerically second among Thursday-night viewers; Biden has 28 percent support in this group; Warren, 17 percent; and Sanders, 15 percent.

Notably among groups, while Harris challenged Biden on the subject of race in their debate, his support is especially strong among blacks, 41 percent, 12 points higher than it is overall. Harris' support, by contrast, is not differentiated by race and ethnicity – 11 percent among blacks and an identical 11 percent among all leaned Democrats. Warren, for her part, has notably low support among nonwhites, 5 percent.
 

Helot_Azure

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,521
I'm seeing a growing undercurrent where African Americans are saying that Kamala Harris isn't truly "black" like they are (East Indian mom, Jamaican dad). I know the candidates tried to paint that as birthirism when Trump Jr's stupid ass retweeted it, but its important to note that this criticism is coming from black people themselves. Obama had the benefit of Michelle Obama being his wife, so black people overlooked the fact that he had a immigrant father. Kamala Harris is married to an old white dude, and she has a shaky legal record.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
---- Race/ethnicity ---
Blacks Whites Other
Support:
Biden 41% 26% 26%
Sanders 23% 18% 32%
Harris 11% 14% 7%
Warren 4% 17% 6%
Sanders make up is looking pretty good. It kind of explains why a lot of his supporters second choice is Biden. There's a lot of black support for Biden. I think Sanders has the most to gain as Biden continues tanking.

Warren is having some big issues drawing in minority support.
 

Orwell

Banned
Jun 6, 2019
345
User Banned (Permanent): Peddling racist conspiracy theories
I'm seeing a growing undercurrent where African Americans are saying that Kamala Harris isn't truly "black" like they are (East Indian mom, Jamaican dad). I know the candidates tried to paint that as birthirism when Trump Jr's stupid ass retweeted it, but its important to note that this criticism is coming from black people themselves. Obama had the benefit of Michelle Obama being his wife, so black people overlooked the fact that he had a immigrant father. Kamala Harris is married to an old white dude, and she has a shaky legal record.

Kamala, like Obama before her, is not an African American. She came from a privileged background, raised by two wealthy parents, one of whom is "Jamaican." (an ethnicity, not a race; her "Jamaican" father is not entirely black, either). Likening the accusations of appropriation made by ADOS to the "birtherism" smears against Obama is a disingenuous framing of a legitimate concern we - ADOS - have with her. Birtherism was rooted in a racist appeal to white America, painting Obama as an intruder whose Presidency was illegitimate because he was not "American" (read: white).

ADOS' criticism of Kamala includes a scrutiny of her record as a DA, focusing on her unmistakable indifference to a number of inequities that predominantly poor black people suffered from in their interactions with the California justice system. She launched her campaign at Howard (an HBCU) and goes on The Breakfast Club to tout her bonafides as an "African American," but her actions throughout her career do not reflect a woman who has any kinship with black ADOS.
 
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tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Lol these polls are trash. The OP one shows Sanders 4th but the ABC/WaPo one here from today rated A+ by 538 (as if that means anything either) shows Sanders still firmly in second. They will show you what they want to show you, and you will take away what you want.
 
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Adam_Roman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
I'm glad things are getting shaken up. I don't know who my favorite is of the current candidates yet. I'm surprised Tulsi and Gillibrand are as low as they are, but there's also do many candidates currently it's tough to stand out among. I'm really excited to see how this starts evolving. I supported Bernie until he dropped out last time and while I hope he does well still, I'm happy we have other progressives in the running too and I wouldn't be upset if he never makes it to the top 3.
 

Orwell

Banned
Jun 6, 2019
345
Whoever the nominee is, we'd all better be behind them 200%.

Well, no, that's how we ended up with Trump. Better to leave him in office than taking several steps backwards and electing the kind of Democrat who'd usher in a more competent fascist. If Biden's the nominee, it'd be insanity to get behind him.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Whoever the nominee is, we'd all better be behind them 200%. I don't know that there's any coming back from four more years of Trump, at least nothing that we'll see in our lifetimes.
Great idea but it's not going to happen (edit: see above post). There are many people who absolutely will not vote for Biden. And to a lesser extent there are people who will not vote for Sanders and so on. They probably won't say that here on Resetera, but I imagine it is the case.

IMO it's Sanders or Warren or we are fucked plain and simple. I hope that's not right but I believe it to be.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,384
Well, no, that's how we ended up with Trump. Better to leave him in office than taking several steps backwards and electing the kind of Democrat who'd usher in a more competent fascist. If Biden's the nominee, it'd be insanity to get behind him.
Choosing evil over mediocrity makes no sense.
 

Eidan

AVALANCHE
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,597
Lol these polls are trash. The OP one shows Sanders 4th but the ABC/WaPo one here from today rated A+ by 538 (as if that means anything either) shows Sanders still firmly in second. They will show you what they want to show you, and you will take away what you want.
Nah. All the polls show the same thing, that the debates have had a strong positive effect for Harris and a negative one for Biden and Sanders. The only difference really is in the degrees, which is to be expected from pollster to pollster.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Nah. All the polls show the same thing, that the debates have had a strong positive effect for Harris and a negative one for Biden and Sanders. The only difference really is in the degrees, which is to be expected from pollster to pollster.
Right I just mean people will look at whatever they want to look at and take away from that whatever they want to see. Harris absolutely killed in the debate, no question. She did a great job. Anything that takes Biden down at this point is a great thing.