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Oh I know, but everyone else has so far been completely terrified of China.
Trump has expressed outright admiration for Xi's strongman tactics. He's not standing up for anything.
I understand that. The point is that no one else is willing to put any hurt on China in any way for any reason.
That's why good people got to fight the good fight. In business school they beat the term triple bottom line into your head. In theory, the business that doesn't care about it's people (one of the lines) they do not get to succeed.
Rounding up people and killing them so you can sell their organs.dachau with a capitalist twist and the rest of the world does nothing because we are ALL hooked on China like junkies. I don't think the best horror writer in the world could come up with something that bleak.
Yep exactly and well spoken - this would give Orwell a heart attack
Obama tried to implement the TPP to curb Chain's growing power in the Pacific, which Trump scuttled US part in it once he became president.
There is an easy answer and it is to be the lesser of the two evils here.
Praytell how is "bombing the living fuck out of China" the "lesser evil" here?
Up to and including asking China for help getting yourself re-elected. When Tarriffs in the first place are probably the China version of withholding funding for Ukraine as a quid pro quo.
Your definition of "Tough on China" is fuckin' weird.
Amazing how Trump's sheer pettiness changes the global economic landscape, huh?
The Obama Administration had great foresight with their "pivot to China" approach to foreign policy. This is one of those situations where "four more years" could've potentially made a massive difference in the status quo.
Here's a great piece on Obama + China:
Human rights abuses isn't an internal issue though, and slapping sanctions is also a way of internationally saying "We see what you're doing, we will take this non-military route.
When Zimbabwe was abusing peoples human rights, seizing private property etc, they were sanctioned to hell and back. Rightfully so. Today they have the Highest inflation in the world, and their currency is in tatters, mostly stemming from the actions of that tyrant Robert Mugabe.
Not enough is being done here.
Thanks to the CCP, China is on the same list as North Korea as a "Fuck-this-place-dont-go-here" category.
I feel sadness for the citizens who have to suffer their shit...
I feel sadness for the citizens who have to suffer their shit...
Do you think the sanctions on Zimbabwe were successful?
Just like the sanctions on Iraq they inflicted enormous hardship on the people they were supposed to help, and achieved nothing outside making the west feel better that "it was doing something".
Pretty much. Sadly the cowards in Europe are to busy licking China's balls to join in.
It is economic suicide to sanction China sadly. The only reason our dumbass president is trying to fight them is that he doesn't care much about badly hurting our farms and other impacted industries. It's not even a moral stance, he just thinks China is bullying us on trade.
I've given up in even the notion of people-in-power taking action to fight back against this.
They've proven time and time again that these people are expendable when weighed against financial benefits. Nothing will be done and innocents will continue to suffer and be butchered.
They've proven time and time again that these people are expendable when weighed against financial benefits. Nothing will be done and innocents will continue to suffer and be butchered.
I agree. The only realistic hope the Uyghurs have are all the internal conflicts within China. Only if the internal problems are too big, Xi's government could crumble. It's a very small hope though.
I get what you saying, but, realistically, even if our leaders weren't cowards who traded their kin for the financial benefits, what could've been done in this situation? The best I can think of is stop selling oil to China and limit their activities in a Muslim world and China most likely won't even feel the blow. Unfortunately, we stuck in a situation there no Muslim majority country in the world has a political or military weight to challenge a country like China, and there won't be any if our countries continue to develop in current trajectory.
The US made most of the western world pretty much not have any economic relationship with China for a quarter century, and it achieved nothing, outside of course imposing terrible hardship on common people (and it's not that China needed much help in that).
Yeah, as I said, China (the ruling elite to be more precise) most likely won't feel the blow, doesn't mean that their activities around the globe shouldn't be undermined at any given opportunity, economic pressure is the only thing the rest of the world can apply.
It was always a lie. The second it becomes inconvenient nations give up on doing the right thing.
I don't know what "undermine" mean, but let's say you manage to put China in a serious recession, how will that help anyone?
Your'e gonna blow up the world's economy, inflict enormous hardship on billions of people all over the world, and you're not gonna make the situation in Xinjiang any better.
Yeah, like the US invading and ostracising dozens of countries throughout history has worked so well and has not been its own form of genocide in the past.
There's nothing the "West" can do about this, and it's best if the west does nothing, because it never works, and it will only be done for selfish strategic reasons anyway.
You know what undermine means. Economic sanctions would soften up the CCP since its economy is built on a course of cards, which would make it vulnerable to locals rising up against them. Open war is absolutely out of the question, sadly. It's better than doing absolutely nothing that you're proposing.
You're not gonna regime change China with sanctions, you need to get off that dream.
No regime change has ever worked like that, in fact, no regime change the US ever done ever managed to improve things.
You couldn't make it work in Grenada, China is not gonna be the country that break that streak.
So rather than giving the government some political pressure to show the world isn't ok with genocide you want them to do...nothing?
You can justify literally anything if your bar is "something needs to be done".
But you got to understand that certain things can make things worse, even for the people you are trying to help.
Remember the sanctions on Iraq?
You think that they were good?
And Saddam was a bad man, he had torture chambers and rape palaces.
You have a lot to say about my arguments, where's your advocacy for doing nothing? You're not even defending that stance.
Vile.
Most Muslims countries won't say anything for a few reasons: 1) Muslims are prone to care about their ethnicity more than others (I.e. it's hard to get Arabs to care about uighurs); this is the sad truth around the world and it isn't limited only to Muslims. 2) many Muslim countries are really reliant on China. I think Pakistan spoke out but then had to fall back in line.
Short of economic pressure from superpower economies, not much can be done. It's extremely sad and everyone should count their lucky stars they aren't stuck in a situation like the uighurs are.
Most Muslims countries won't say anything for a few reasons: 1) Muslims are prone to care about their ethnicity more than others (I.e. it's hard to get Arabs to care about uighurs); this is the sad truth around the world and it isn't limited only to Muslims. 2) many Muslim countries are really reliant on China. I think Pakistan spoke out but then had to fall back in line.
Short of economic pressure from superpower economies, not much can be done. It's extremely sad and everyone should count their lucky stars they aren't stuck in a situation like the uighurs are.
I mean, if things continue as they are soon there probably won't be people we are trying to help.
I said a few times what I think the US can do, but I don't mind repeating again.
- Offer asylum. I know I sound like a broken record, but the US has this amazing super power of being rich, pretty empty, and really really good at assimilating immigrants. It can absorb a whole lot of uighurs with little problem.
- Remove the uighurs groups they added after 9/11 to the terror watch list. This shit makes it really hard for anyone to work with them. It would be nice if they could get a normal visa to the US (which they can't really now), but that's admittedly a less pressing matter.
- Engage with China. The US has a lot of things that China really wants, both material and symbolic, and I honestly believe you can deal with them. Though it would help if the US first develop even a rough idea about what it want about Xinjiang, because as far as I know, it really doesn't have one.
Well, at the time it didn't help. But did help his rival faction in his own party to overthrow Mugabe, hence their new President today.
This is wrong, it's just that European leaders aren't as insurmountably stupid as the American President is.
Sad to imagine, I hope something can be done. Elizabeth Warren just wrote this piece: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/0...ted-states-to-stand-up-to-china-in-hong-kong/
I think thats not too bad, especially for the rest of the species. What a fucked up world. I really have to quit twitter and the internet soon, its making me sicker everyday. Just waiting for the big bang should be healthier. But its impossible to ignore these nightmares everywhere. And these are just the ones we have news on. Fuck the humankind hard and never let that failure happen again! Its abusive everywhere.
We don't need China. China became what it is today (from an economical standpoint) because corporations and rich people wanted even more money. The west is perfectly capable of producing the vast majority of it's necessities on it's own or in other countries that aren't China. It's greed that keeps China afloat, nothing else.
There is nothing stupid about putting pressure on China. We are already witnessing what the constant European dicksucking achieved. China is growing more bold, more powerful and more genocidal every year. And this won't stay limited to China either. They're going to try to aggressively expand their hegemony in Asia as soon as they feel they can get away with it. Now it's Hong Kong, tomorrow Taiwan and the day after tomorrow some other Asian country.
Liberal idealism has an exceedingly poor record in international politics. The solution to China for the US and everyone else was to balance against China by retaining the US' interests in regional alliances and multilateral trade structures rather than dumping the whole project in favour of bilateral 'deal-making'.
I didn't say it was stupid to put pressure on China, I said that the American president is an idiot of an unfathomable degree. His stupidity in the trade war with China has done nothing of consequence to the Chinese government, but has caused numerous and long lasting damage to America.
He was replaced by his vice president, after he fired him, and his vice president is also under personal sanctions (and the sanctions on Zimbabwe are still in place).
I think calming that the sanctions did it is a huge stretch, and mind you, those sanctions fucked up the whole region, people lives got ruined, and there is not a whole lot to show for.
And that's Zimbabwe, you think you can regime change China with sanctions?
You need to be realistic about what sanctions can achieve.
And to be clear, I'm not saying sanctions cannot be effective ever, they were effective against South Africa and I believe they can be effective against Israel, but I think you must consider what you're trying to achieve with the sanctions and how much of an effect they can have on the country. Just slapping sanctions because Bad Country usually just end up causing a whole lot of suffering to normal people.
And again, it's not like the west didn't try to sanction China before.
I don't know, maybe something smart and targeted around a specific demand can work, I think it can work better when there is also a carrot and not just a stick, do you have something specific in mind?
The Uighurs genocide, Kashmir being on lockdown for 2 months now, Rohingyans becoming stateless. Very hard times now and incoming for Muslims across the globe. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya and Yemen all suffering big time and increasing hatred for Muslims everywhere means tough times ahead.
Edit: Lots of other atrocities happening as well, wrote that in haste didn't mean to ezxlude anything.
Edit: Lots of other atrocities happening as well, wrote that in haste didn't mean to ezxlude anything.
Fucking hell. That report was harrowing. The Chinese government is going all out to wipe out Uighur culture. The last part of the video showing clear evidence of social engineering was like something out of a dystopian future movie.
And yet, the rest of the world turns a blind eye, but the question is really what can the world do to respond. Serious question. What can the world do to put an end to this?