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CDPR's response over The Witcher 3's lack of diversity rings more hollow after the Netflix series
- Thread starter chaobreaker
- Start date
Fair enough. I have read about there being no black people in Poland at the time. There were indeed multiple invasions by the Mongols in the 13th Century.
Ok but it doesn't take place in medieval Poland. It's a myth. The author didn't mean it to be that way, it's a "pseudo world" that isn't based on a specific culture or history. Crossing Eden's and TheEchosOfTheCyborg's posts worth reading, and check the source for the stories in the books' inspirations. Also, PoC existed during medieval Poland so even if The Witcher was based on that, it would be inaccurate.
Aaand where was I talking about the continent? I specifically mentioned Poland. If your argument is that the story of The Witcher is a fictional construct taking place on a fantasy continent and as such should have no problems having POC representation, congratulations. You just figured out what Netflix already did.
Yeah, that show is a great, positive, if involuntary, answer to these hokey concerns about verisimilitude. Particularly when Sapkowski is more than okay with this.
It's delicious. I especially love "there weren't African Americans in Europe yet".
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Haha the racists come out in droves.
It's delicious. I especially love "there weren't African Americans in Europe yet".
Again, I know they are supposed to be beautiful because of enchantments. However one doesn't have to resort to giving them all the same body type and super booby outfits to resort to that. Keira changes into a different outfit for her "date" with Geralt, I don't see why she wouldn't want to wear something different for fighting at Kaer Morehen (can't remember how to spell this place).
Okay the "African Americans in Europe" bit got me good lmao
It's delicious. I especially love "there weren't African Americans in Europe yet".
The entire context of the thread is about The Witcher. The poster previous to you mentioned that they viewed the world of the game as medieval Poland which it is absolutely not. Bringing up Poland's historical demographics is often cited as a justification for the lack of diverse skin tones and features within the base game. Hence someone mentioning dragons to say that those demographics aren't an excuse for CDPR's lack of POC in the base game.
Congratulations on following the overall conversation though.
There's certainly not a lot of diversity in the form of skin colour in the Witcher 3. I don't think it would've fit that well in Temeria/Velen and Skellige as those places are modelled after the feudal system of medieval Europe. There was not much movability back then. The general population rarely travelled beyond the borders of their village. Seeing lots of people with different skin colours in those parts of the game would've been a bit weird. They could've made one of the invading forces more diverse, but wouldn't that have caused issues of its own? Diversity in the sense of skin colour would've made a lot more sense in Novigrad, of course. One of the world's biggest port cities, if I remember correctly.
However, I do think the game's background with the war between Temeria, Redania and Nilfgaard shows a lot of diversity in cultures in combination with issues like racism, nationalism and class. The situation of Redania reminded me a bit of Poland's difficult position between Germany and Russia.
In general, I like diversity but don't consider a lack thereof necessarily as bad. I also don't mind playing as any race or gender.
Edit: I only know the Witcher world and lore from playing the Witcher 3.
However, I do think the game's background with the war between Temeria, Redania and Nilfgaard shows a lot of diversity in cultures in combination with issues like racism, nationalism and class. The situation of Redania reminded me a bit of Poland's difficult position between Germany and Russia.
In general, I like diversity but don't consider a lack thereof necessarily as bad. I also don't mind playing as any race or gender.
Edit: I only know the Witcher world and lore from playing the Witcher 3.
From what I remember, the books don't really state what any of the major characters look like from a skin colour standpoint except Geralt and Ciri and that's still usually around their white and ashen hair and being pale.
CDprojekt will hopefully make the wider world of The Witcher more ethnically diverse when Dandelion/Ciri takes over and have more than shades of white. It didn't bother me as much in the game, though it is more apparent and stands in stark contrast to the show now that I'm making my way through Witcher3 and the show at the same time (I just wish Triss' actress was given redder hair).
CDprojekt will hopefully make the wider world of The Witcher more ethnically diverse when Dandelion/Ciri takes over and have more than shades of white. It didn't bother me as much in the game, though it is more apparent and stands in stark contrast to the show now that I'm making my way through Witcher3 and the show at the same time (I just wish Triss' actress was given redder hair).
I personally hope they don't. Let these two interpretations co-exist seperately, as different entities, I say. As much as I loved Netflix Geralt, Ciri, Fringilla and Triss, I wouldn't give up the games counterpart (especially Doug Cockle) for a tie-in.
Also, it'd be super weird to see characters change faces, voices and skin colour from one game to the next (two different interpretations is one thing, but within the same continuum, it'd be strange to me).
There is a lot to love from both works, but they're two different beasts with a different identity, I think. They can live side by side without having to merge.
Ah. Reading is hard. It's okay, I can simplify it for you.
Let's start with an easy concept. People in a thread can be having multiple conversations related to various subtopics. Reading a conversation carefully can help you understand it before you shoot off a reply.
Now we'll go point by point through this conversation, slow and easy.
The poster didn't CLAIM that the game took place in medieval Poland. They said that they CONSIDERED it to take place in medieval Poland, and qualified it with "but that's me", which means they were talking about their personal perspective of the world of the game. They were describing how they viewed the game, and not claiming any facts about Sapkowski's stories.
The second part of the conversation was this-
A poster mistook what the original poster was trying to say, and assumed they were saying that POCs didn't exist in medieval times (which is absurd of course).
Now we come to the last part of the conversation-
I wrote a comment clarifying the meaning of the original poster, as I understood it. Nowhere was I talking about The Witcher. I didn't need to, since I had already commented in this thread with my views on the subject. You'd have known that had you been "following the overall conversation".
Admittedly, I was talking about black people living in medieval Poland. As a helpful poster corrected me, Poland was invaded multiple times in the 13th Century by the Mongols, so I'm happy to make that correction.
Hope you found that helpful.
Amazing you wrote a lot. Perhaps you should reread my second sentence there.
The game factually takes place in a fantasy world that is not Poland. Nothing about Poland's demographics matters when discussing the makeup of the game's world.
why does historical accuracy matter so much in a series with dwarves/elves/dragons and monsters but add a black person and the world suddenly becomes unrecognizable or not unique.
I'm assuming your daughter is quite young, because you also look young. Yet you think Ciri and Geralt, who are both adults, nail the father/daughter relationship?
Thanks for that. Too many people on here take this particular criticism of the game as criticism of themselves for enjoying it. They're not mutually exclusive things.
Well even though the Author of the source material said as much about the world being pure fantasy, we have to find a way to justify excluding having black or brown people in the game.
Racists will use all kinds of justification to excuse dismissal of PoC contributions and inclusion. The "historical accuracy" argument for fictional stories not based on real events is an old and easily squashed one, but some are gullible to believe the status quo and myths.
People went kinda crazy at the mention of a hypothetical female Gandalf, so probably.
Wow I have never heard of this. I didn't even know Gandalf would be in the TV-Show, cause I don't think there are mentions of the wizards being in middle earth during the second age. Gandalf is a Maiar that comes to Middle Earth a thousand years into the third age, where they presume the identity and form of elderly men because it represents wisdom and authority to better influence and guide the kingdoms of Middle Earth with council and advice. I am pretty sure Gandalf can choose whatever form he wants.
I'm not sure, but I remember reading that an actress (not from the main cast, but a supporting role, iirc) from the LotR movies suggested to the series producers to make a female Gandalf. Not sure whether Gandalf is planned to appear at all in the series. (I have close to 0 knowledge on Lord of the Rings, so I'll stop right there)
Alright. I am sorry if we're going off-topic that was not my intention , but just to be clear -- Gandalf does not have a prominent role in Middle Age during the second age, so if they do include him in some way or another it would be for the sake of fanservice. That said, it doesn't prohibit the writers to make their own liberties by including Gandalf into the story in some form. It also wouldn't be unthinkable to imagine Gandalf having visited Middle Earth several times throughout the ages as a scout or an observer as he prepares for his task to come.
I think it takes me out of the world a little bit if its done oddly since I imagine all medieval societies were pretty homogeneous.
Lets take GoT for example, if youre in westeros, youre white, unless youre in sunspear, in which case everyone turns mediterrean. If you werent white there was usually a little explanation like 'oh, you must be from the east isles' or something.
In the netflix witcher the driads were all different races, white, black, indian. The elves are all different races. Is this gonna be explained? probably not. Does it ruin the show for me? no. Does it take me out of the world building just a littlllleee bit. Yes.
Do they not trade and travel in Westeros? What is white anyway? Not Asian, that other Asian (example, Middle East Asia), sometimes not Irish?
first of all thanks I will take that as a compliment. Being 35 I rarely get those comments anymore :b
And yes while my daughter is fairly young I recognized the way he looks at Ciri. It's not of a sexual nature but a caring and protective nature, which rings true for a father and daughter regardless of age.
you dont need to be a father to see what kind of relationship Geralt and Ciri have . I thought it was very obvious and very well done . There was not a moment in the whole 150h that I played where I thought there was something remotely sexual between Ciri and Geralt
I'm sure we'll get our time in the sun any day now (or have anyone give a fuck) lol
Remember how folks at CD Projekt Red responded when articles and reviews pointed out The Witcher 3's lack of diversity back when the game came out?
Let's take a little trip to 2015 for a quick refresher.
"Fifty shades of white": Witcher 3 devs talk race and adapting literature
Still rings hollow to me in 2020.
But hey it's not like there's a hot new Witcher adaptation out there that managed to become a mega hit all while featuring PoC in its slavic-mythology-inspired setting.
oh wait.
if the Witcher games were to include much more diversity into the games, would they know how to write them or go beyond tokenism?
I would rather have close to no representation than bad representation.
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They're already at tokenism, I'd imagine any additional diversity could only improve matters. And they don't really need to write characters any more diversely than they do now. I don't think the netflix series wrote characters as "black" or "white" or "brown." It just wrote characters and then cast diverse actors in those roles.
Except it does because of the developers. Like OP points out in the response to controversy
It really is as simple as that sometimes. Just a very narrow view of the world based off of current issues and demographics. Has nothing to do with historical accuracy. But you are always going to get this type of discourse in these threads because some people live in countries where issues with culture and race are an ever present problem. It seems as if people forget the intensity of the issues in their home country either aren't the same in other countries or manifest themselves in different ways.
I am not going to sit here and pretend like there is no racism across the world or that some cultures are immune. I am simply pointing out that there could be cases where some devs simply don't think about race or skin color as a topic to approach unless they are forced by setting.
And the show doesn't suffer at all from it. But to draw parallels between what Netflix did and CDPR did just seems bad because producers of netflix show are from and have dealings with US. And because of that, I am glad the question of whether or not color of skin applies in fantasy world. I just hope now that CDPR is much larger and reaches a worldwide population they hear fans and make a more conscious effort for inclusion.
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Sorry, yes. I wasn't trying to diminish this approach. I think it works splendidly. I think in a show which isn't itself trying to say anything about race, it might be the most sensible way to achieve broad racial inclusivity. Stories need not justify the presence of PoC or "other" them through how they're written.
CDPR were faithful to the books. Cant blame them for that, actually I commend them for it.
The netflix series added a more diverse cast, didnt really hurt the show and they did it in a good way. They stayed faithful to the source material for the most part yet added diversity.
Personally as someone who doesnt live near the countries where these slavic cultures were, I find the books and CDPRs approach to be better. They represented a certain culture in a unique and interesting way.
With technology the level of globalization grew, and difference races mingled and connected with each other from far across the world, a thing much harder to achieve in medieval times. It makes a lot more sense for a game like cyberpunk 2077 to have an extremely diverse setting and characters, which it does, and which shows that the witcher games lack of diversity isnt due to CDPR not being politically correct, but it's more of a artistic decision to stick with the lore and books.
The netflix series added a more diverse cast, didnt really hurt the show and they did it in a good way. They stayed faithful to the source material for the most part yet added diversity.
Personally as someone who doesnt live near the countries where these slavic cultures were, I find the books and CDPRs approach to be better. They represented a certain culture in a unique and interesting way.
With technology the level of globalization grew, and difference races mingled and connected with each other from far across the world, a thing much harder to achieve in medieval times. It makes a lot more sense for a game like cyberpunk 2077 to have an extremely diverse setting and characters, which it does, and which shows that the witcher games lack of diversity isnt due to CDPR not being politically correct, but it's more of a artistic decision to stick with the lore and books.
I'm pushing back against the idea of "historical accuracy" in a fantasy world that is already drawing from multiple cultures. Bad phrasing on my part but that's more what I mean when I'm saying it's not relevant. All these things are choices and Netflix and CDPR made different ones.
Fans will demand POC to be cast only as the bad guys, because "historic accuracy ".
It's not even historically accurate since there are concrete record that people of color lived in medieval Europe. It's thinly veiled racism, like somehow a black elf will break their "immersion" or whatever.
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Basically my view on it. I feel like The Witcher on the whole should be celebrated for a good look into eastern europe culture/folklore as a form of diversity itself. Either way, in some way this criticism is adressed within TW3 itself by adding PoC characters in DLCs which is rarely mentioned or dismissed. Not to mention there's a much larger focus on racial/ethnic diversity in Cyberpunk 2077 so they're learning the lesson for sure.
When they were a much smaller team of mostly slavic/Polish people it's understandable they wouldn't want to dabble into the topic they're unfamiliar with as most Poles wouldn't have a chance to have one single conversation with PoC in their entire life. With CDPR growing larger and more international each year though, I feel like it's a natural progression for them now to tackle the topic in question in basically all their future games. I'd expect TW4 to have as much diversity as Netflix show.
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It's delicious. I especially love "there weren't African Americans in Europe yet".
I always find those comments hilarious.
It's okay. As long as "Europe" has dwarves, elves, magic, fairies, golems, or whatever the fuck fantasy shit that is in the Witcher games. Can't have black people though. That's stretching things.
I have varying opinions on this matter that i find hard to describe as a white German dude, but I´ll try nevertheless:
- The "historical accuracy" argument doenst hold water and can´t apply anymore as soon as you inform yourself, as was already explained multiple times in the thread
- Same with the "does ruin the immersion", because the World of the Witcher is not just Fantasy-poland, but a whole Continent that definetely can and should be populated by PoC, as demonstrated by the Show
- Book Accuracy is out of the Window, as the Author himself doesnt specify Skin-Color in most of the cases
- at least in the bigger Cities, i would have wished for better Representation, even before reading articles about the matter. It would simply make sense for a densly populated trading city like Novigrad to be culturally diverse - especially in comparison to the backwater villages in Velen. You could even argue that it would add to the immersion.
- I still dont see CDPR as bad faith actors here because, as also stated in this thread, they created the game through their own cultural POV and modern day Poland (and also the whole context of old European Fairy tales and Illustrations) is simply (sadly) very very white. I did not get the impression that the lack of POC was an active decision against representation but an "honest mistake" so to speak.
- what bothers me a little is that the American discourse sees Diversity only as "white" and "POC". Its not like "white people" is a homogenous Culture in Europe and I appreciate that TW3 feels distinctevly Slavic (way more than the books btw) - which in itself counts as diversity in the gaming context in my book. There are very, very little AAA games that represent or a heavily flavored by specific European Cultures or "cultural Regions" - except for Italy in AssCreed.
- The "historical accuracy" argument doenst hold water and can´t apply anymore as soon as you inform yourself, as was already explained multiple times in the thread
- Same with the "does ruin the immersion", because the World of the Witcher is not just Fantasy-poland, but a whole Continent that definetely can and should be populated by PoC, as demonstrated by the Show
- Book Accuracy is out of the Window, as the Author himself doesnt specify Skin-Color in most of the cases
- at least in the bigger Cities, i would have wished for better Representation, even before reading articles about the matter. It would simply make sense for a densly populated trading city like Novigrad to be culturally diverse - especially in comparison to the backwater villages in Velen. You could even argue that it would add to the immersion.
- I still dont see CDPR as bad faith actors here because, as also stated in this thread, they created the game through their own cultural POV and modern day Poland (and also the whole context of old European Fairy tales and Illustrations) is simply (sadly) very very white. I did not get the impression that the lack of POC was an active decision against representation but an "honest mistake" so to speak.
- what bothers me a little is that the American discourse sees Diversity only as "white" and "POC". Its not like "white people" is a homogenous Culture in Europe and I appreciate that TW3 feels distinctevly Slavic (way more than the books btw) - which in itself counts as diversity in the gaming context in my book. There are very, very little AAA games that represent or a heavily flavored by specific European Cultures or "cultural Regions" - except for Italy in AssCreed.
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You realize that the roman empire was trading with Africa and the far east over a thousand years before the medieval time period right? I mean, surely you've at least heard about Cleopatra and Mark Antony and that was over 2000 years ago.
That's... I missed it. But Christ that's Power Girl levels of dumb.