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Drwu

Member
Aug 23, 2018
226
I think the lack of diversity in the witcher isn't the biggest deal. Especially as they're clearly making an effort to rectify it with cyberpunk. Now im a straight mostly white man. So my opinions on diversity should always be taken with a grain of salt. I'd love to see more diversity in games the lack of it isn't a turn off for me. Usually you just got to say hey maybe try better next time. And it's clear CDPR is trying so that's enough for me
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
Sounds like bullshit. Why not an alternate historical japan that wasn't closed off? Too fantasy for you?

They could have done that. The point is that The Witcher does not take place in Poland in any point in time, so they can't use historical accuracy as an excuse.
 

misho8723

Member
Jan 7, 2018
3,726
Slovakia
They show the lack of a diverse industry responsible for the creation of those works. There are a lot of non-white people in that entire continent, believe it or not.

I mean there are movies where Romani -or Jewish - people are the main characters in some of Slavic movies, but all the movies where only white actors play are suddenly now racist? Now every movie from a Slavic country needs to have some Romani actor in it?
 

MGPanda

Member
Feb 25, 2018
2,495
NiOh is alternate historical Japan and they had a black samurai.

Fantasy or alternate historical Japan means shit, you can have black people if you want to

Dark_Samurai_Concept_Art.jpg
To be completely honest, that probably is a reference to Yasuke, the first black real-life samurai. His whole story is incredibly memorable and it would even fit within the context of the game without changing pretty much anything, lmao.
 

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,500
It just feels like....racial diversity never occured to them. Which makes sense when you're in a homogeneous society. Honestly, they should have just stated the obvious, instead of the bs excuse they gave.

NiOh is alternate historical Japan and they had a black samurai.

Fantasy or alternate historical Japan means shit, you can have black people if you want to

Dark_Samurai_Concept_Art.jpg
Isn't he like based off a real guy. Who was a retainer of nobunaga? Nioh actually had a decent amount of diversity based on how they decided to tell the story. It was never only about Japan.
 
Last edited:

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,097
India
They could have done that. The point is that The Witcher does not take place in Poland in any point in time, so they can't use historical accuracy as an excuse.

Indeed they can't, because historical accuracy wasn't the question here. It's about culture and how you interpret art through that culture. The Polish developers of CDPR interpreted it through what they know of Polish culture, and that's just as fair as American developers of the Netflix Witcher seeing their interpretation of it.

Insisting that Polish creators conform to American standards of diversity is like me complaining why American movies don't have many lower-caste characters in them.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
I mean there are movies where Romani -or Jewish - people are the main characters in some of Slavic movies, but all the movies where only white actors play are suddenly now racist? Now every movie from a Slavic country needs to have some Romani actor in it?
The movies themselves are not racist, per se, but there is likely systemic prejudice at play. Although we shouldn't just lump the entirety of Europe in an argument, as each country has a different distribution of ethnicities.
 

Smoolio

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,877
If Cyberpunk 2077 has same sex epic romance arcs of the same quality and length as Yen and Triss I will be incredibly surprised. I'm expecting only one night stand/Keira Metz lvl/or god forbid only as prostitutes.
 

Kyle Barrett

Banned
Mar 5, 2018
125
I love the diversity present in the Netflix version, it just makes me sad that the CDPR version wasn't already diverse because I struggle with the characters in the Netflix series now - it makes the casting feel off as opposed to my first experience of the universe just being shitty.

The one thing I can say to back this up, without it feeling vaguely racist is that Geralt doesn't sound right without that ridiculously clean cut American accent. And that's just plain wrong as all throughout CDPR's Witcher I found his American accent off-putting, but now it's gone it barely seems like Geralt.
 

Serious Sam

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,354
User banned (1 month): Dismissing concerns around representation, inflammatory whataboutism regarding racism
Witcher trilogy and the books are amazingly diverse. You have humans, elves, gnomes, dwarfes, godlings, dryads, intelligent dragons..
And both deal with racism very well, through this allegory, even if they do not feature different human ethnicities and skin colors (until HoS). Why? Because they are made by Poles, and Poland was a country stuck behind iron curtain that also happens to be nearly completely homogenous and Poles do not have a guilty conscience over african slavery to feel the need to include africans (or asians, or eskymos). "Write what you know". Of course, now that they know some americans will call them racist because of it, I am sure they learned that lesson.
Eastern Europeans were occupied, enslaved and suffered so much it makes me sick when clueless Americans completely oblivious to history accuse eastern Europeans of lack of diversity and such. Westerners live in countries built by slaves, countries where racism is rampant to this day, and they dare to accuse countries like Poland of racism and lack of diversity. Just classic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
It seems like some time back the show had some rumored casting of Ciri as a POC and 'fans' got upset and took to Twitter and other places to voice their discontent with showrunners or production companies -- no idea which. I'd be hard-pressed to not believe that was a part of the calculus of the casting choices, ultimately. So, if that's true, the assumption that casual racism didn't find its way into the show's production probably isn't so, and in fact may have had more of an overt effect on it than any did during the production of the game.
 

Deleted member 10549

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
832
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory Commentary, Dismissing Concerns Surrounding Representation, Previous Severe Infraction
Reading the description in the OP, I'm honestly satisfied with it.

Yeah, magic means you *can* change other aspects of the story, but if people grew up in a vastly mono-racial society, I see no problem with accurately representing that in their work. Having to justify reflecting a real-life condition doesn't make sense to me, although I get why people want more diversity and I'm not complaining the show's more diverse.

Thank you, this seems like the most logical comment here.

To add my two cents, Witcher books are heavily influenced by Slavic mythology and culture, so CDPR decided to create a world that is also based on Slavic culture. This also means that the world is basically fully populated by white people. The show is heavily westernized. Now it looks like another generic fantasy show. It has no slavic elements anymore. The show completly stripped the Witcher from the only thing that made the world unique.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
I'm all in for diversity in games and midia in general

The Witcher series is based on slavic folklore, so it makes sense that everyone would be white. There was a black npc in Hearts of Stone, if I'm not mistaken. A traveller from some distant land. Makes sense.

If CDPR really didnt care about representation, they wouldn't have made so many amazing women characters in the Witcher. Also, there are a lot of not so subtle symbolism about prejudice against minorities in their games.

Cyberpunk seems to have a lot of diversity in skin color, but I doubt that it was the result of criticism, but thematically it makes sense.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,327
The argument 'this is based on Medieval Poland' doesn't stand to me. When you include fantasy elements like mutations, elves, space-time magic and what not you can as well take the freedom to 'inject' some diversity in the cast. They didn't but I don't feel like criticizing them.
And as historians, both and Polish and not pointed out at the time, the argument that it's Medieval Poland rings incredibly hollow as it's very likely Poland was more diverse then it is now thanks the extensive trading it had with nations from the east, Poland was not self-sufficient, little to no to Europe and because of it's geographical location, Poland was a hot spot for trading which when you are a nation in constant threat and attack from Western Europe, good trade and resources was essential. What CDPR basically did was the "their was no black in Europe!" BS you see on the web all the time.

Plus their is the fact that no much of the Witcher is actually based on Slavic mythology, it in fact borrows heavily from German, Norse, Greek, Arabian and many other mythologies (which is kind of a shame because Slavic Dragons are really interesting and would have made cool monsters to fight against). This is because sadly quite a fair bit of Slavic folklore and mythology was purged or altered when Christianity took over and tried to suppress it.

Edit: Wow, it's really disturbing how many commenters here really do believe in the BS "their were no black people in Europe" falsehood... Like yikes, it's really really not true and only a thing because of how warped our perception of medieval is because of the media and osmosis, I seriously recommend people to look and research POC in Europe first before commenting because seriously not a good look at all and really makes believe that 4Chan and the racist side of the web have succeeded.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,638
If Cyberpunk 2077 has same sex epic romance arcs of the same quality and length as Yen and Triss I will be incredibly surprised. I'm expecting only one night stand/Keira Metz lvl/or god forbid only as prostitutes.
Triss had 3 games. Yennefer had a whole book series. You aren't gonna get those in Cyberpunk because it would be impossible. Also you don't have a set character, which certainly helped those subplots.
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,632
Are the many interactions between Geralt and Ciri, who is supposed to be like a daughter to him, but always lean on flirting, not enough? Even Philippa makes a comment about it ingame for crying out loud.

Lmao. We must have played different games. I never once got the impression they had a flirtatious relationship
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
I mean there are movies where Romani -or Jewish - people are the main characters in some of Slavic movies, but all the movies where only white actors play are suddenly now racist? Now every movie from a Slavic country needs to have some Romani actor in it?

Not necessarily, but if you're gonna have a crowd shot or something you should probably make sure you're capturing an accurate demographic. It's trickier when you're depicting a homogenous country. But this is about a fantasy world where it's not tricky at all.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
Eastern Europeans were occupied, enslaved and suffered so much it makes me sick when clueless Americans completely oblivious to history accuse eastern Europeans of lack of diversity and such. Westerners live in countries built by slaves, countries where racism is rampant to this day, and they dare to accuse countries like Poland of racism and lack of diversity. Just classic.

Yes. Maybe as a Slav myself I should create threads about how offended I am that american TV shows, games and movies lack slavic people so much and nearly the only time they feature them is as villains.
Maybe everyone whose identity is in any way underrepresented in any piece of media ever created should make threads about it. Would make for a fun time I am sure.
 

giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,634
User banned (1 month): Inflammatory false equivalence; dismissing concerns surrounding representation

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,464
Witcher 1 is sleazy, but there is a weird retcon of its status as only sleazy. It's a poor production, but that game is the little engine that could, it had tons of great characters, including its female characters who get it on with Geralt.

It's not like the writing in the series didn't get good until Witcher 3 or something, it was always punching way above its weight class.
 

Deleted member 35653

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 8, 2017
744
And as historians, both and Polish and not pointed out at the time, the argument that it's Medieval Poland rings incredibly hollow as it's very likely Poland was more diverse then it is now thanks the extensive trading it had with nations from the east, Poland was not self-sufficient, little to no to Europe and because of it's geographical location, Poland was a hot spot for trading which when you are a nation in constant threat and attack from Western Europe, good trade and resources was essential. What CDPR basically did was the "their was no black in Europe!" BS you see on the web all the time.

Plus their is the fact that no much of the Witcher is actually based on Slavic mythology, it in fact borrows heavily from German, Norse, Greek, Arabian and many other mythologies (which is kind of a shame because Slavic Dragons are really interesting and would have made cool monsters to fight against). This is because sadly quite a fair bit of Slavic folklore and mythology was purged or altered when Christianity took over and tried to suppress it.

Edit: Wow, it's really disturbing how many commenters here really do believe in the BS "their were no black people in Europe" falsehood... Like yikes, it's really really not true and only a thing because of how warped our perception of medieval is because of the media and osmosis, I seriously recommend people to look and research POC in Europe first before commenting because seriously not a good look at all and really makes believe that 4Chan and the racist side of the web have succeeded.
Well I feel like an idiot now. But in my 'defense' I can say I am a university dropout. Jokes apart very interesting post. Thanks for your time.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,850
Show also removed everything Slavic related but i guess nobody cares about that.

Signed Slavic person.
 

Smoolio

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,877
Triss had 3 games. Yennefer had a whole book series. You aren't gonna get those in Cyberpunk because it would be impossible. Also you don't have a set character, which certainly helped those subplots.
So you're saying there wont be hetero romances either with the amount of content of even Shani in Witcher 1? I bet you there will be at least that, and god I hope for same sex also.

What i'm getting at is the content, not some perceived narrative arc from the books continued or multiple games, just multiple scenes spread throughout the game.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,511
The Witcher 3 discussion really makes me appreciate Fire Emblem: Three Houses. Three Houses also takes place in a fantasy Europe (complete with fantasy HRE, fantasy France and fantasy Italy) but their inclusion of PoC from other corners of their fantasy world does a lot to ground their setting and add a lot of rich texture to the game. Fodlan (the fantasy Europe continent) is not detached from the rest of the world, and the presence of the larger world does a lot to enhance the game.
 

Spacejaws

"This guy are sick" of the One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,928
Scotland
The diversity in the Witcher TV series doesn't extend to the general populace right?

All the dirty pleb villagers all looked like standard white european. I remember the black characters being sort of notable, like what seemed like the head knight to Cintra, Ciri's elf friend, Fringila but for example the Striga episode I don't remember different races mixed in with the angry miners.

If there were I didn't notice them and to be honest I think that's a good thing. Normalising seeing different people in minor roles so it's not such a strange thing. I appreciate something like that more than say the way Disney seems to make such a big deal about it and shouting it from the rooftops.
 

eebster

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,596
The Witcher is a game made by Polish devs based on a polish book which draws heavily from slavic folklore. It is their story to tell based on their culture and as long as the story isn't actively racist, which it isn't, demanding them to adhere to western standards of diversity and critizing them for not doing so is quite disrespectful and arrogant in my opinion.


Am I ok with the cast in the game? Yes
Would I be ok if for example all the characters were PoC? Absolutely

Because it is their game, their story to tell based on their own folklore so I'm ok with any choices they make if they think that's how they want to tell their story.
 

Guaraná

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,027
brazil, unfortunately
The Witcher 3 is a straight white male game's wet dream come true and I'm convinced that's a huge reason for it's success. Because that gameplay is fucking atrocious and the characters interactions are often ridiculous and immensely cringe worthy, especially when the long cast of perfectly beautiful women *hint hint* is involved.
You might not like it, but the game is good.
You might get bothered by the lack of diversity and you have all the right to be.

But the game is still good.

The world is amazing, the main history is very interesting, the side quests are awesome the characters are great, the graphics are incredible and the musics are perfect to create the atmosphere.

Perfect? No.

But far from the dismissive characteristics you gave.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,638
And as historians, both and Polish and not pointed out at the time, the argument that it's Medieval Poland rings incredibly hollow as it's very likely Poland was more diverse then it is now thanks the extensive trading it had with nations from the east, Poland was not self-sufficient, little to no to Europe and because of it's geographical location, Poland was a hot spot for trading which when you are a nation in constant threat and attack from Western Europe, good trade and resources was essential. What CDPR basically did was the "their was no black in Europe!" BS you see on the web all the time.

Plus their is the fact that no much of the Witcher is actually based on Slavic mythology, it in fact borrows heavily from German, Norse, Greek, Arabian and many other mythologies (which is kind of a shame because Slavic Dragons are really interesting and would have made cool monsters to fight against). This is because sadly quite a fair bit of Slavic folklore and mythology was purged or altered when Christianity took over and tried to suppress it.

Edit: Wow, it's really disturbing how many commenters here really do believe in the BS "their were no black people in Europe" falsehood... Like yikes, it's really really not true and only a thing because of how warped our perception of medieval is because of the media and osmosis, I seriously recommend people to look and research POC in Europe first before commenting because seriously not a good look at all and really makes believe that 4Chan and the racist side of the web have succeeded.
Thank You. Especially that the Witcher is some specifically Polish or Slavic work when it pulls in shit from all over Europe, including Arthurian legend of all things.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
I wonder if the conservative Witcher game fans are triggered by the show.
My girlfriend joined some Witcher groups after the show aired but had to leave within a day or two due to the amounts of rampant racism from fans because the show was "too diverse." So yes, conservatives are absolutely pissed that Triss isn't a pale, pale red head and that Fringilla has the gall to be a woman of color.
 

N.47H.4N

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,104
I was watching the second chapter with my girlfriend and I remember saying to her: "in 2 chapters I saw more diversity than in the entire game".
 

Tomasdk

Banned
Apr 18, 2018
910
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing concerns surrounding representation
Show also removed everything Slavic related but i guess nobody cares about that.

Signed Slavic person.
That would require some knowledge and thought and not just shouting about lack of diversity in a setting where it doesn't make much sense in the first place. No matter that the books and games are diverse enough as they are but I guess that diversity that doesn't include skin color doesn't count.
 

zoltek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,917
The show has a done a great job with a diverse cast. CDPR made a great game and it is their prerogative as to what characters populate the world they create.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
It's OK with me if Slavic peoples want to make a game about Slavic peoples, honestly. It's also OK with me if this is a significant enough issue for other people to turn them away from the game.

But also, that's not to say that the show's any worse off for being diverse, either. Diversity is practically never something that makes a work worse off.
The thing is there are black or asian slavic people. By implying that a game focussing on polish issues can't have a diverse cast, you paint the picture that whiteness is somehow related to being polish.
 

Bluelote

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,024
CDPR is Polish, Netflix is American, this will have a huge impact in terms of perception of the issue, so I don't really hold it against them too much, although they know their game is a global product and not just for Poland, so yeah, I think they will do better in the future
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
The games could have been a lot more diverse but they did improve on it in the DLC.
1*cCRUmtP4mz9I0PZwQq9d-g.jpeg


I was always welcome to the changes they made in the show because obviously Netflix was adapting it to a much more diverse audience compared to the one that Sapkowski was writing to, the one he lived in, in early 1990s Poland.

The series does tackle issues of diversity that are much more representative of the Eastern Europe that the books and games were written and developed in. It seems to me that the Elves and Dwarves are somewhat analogous to Jews in Eastern Europe given the fact there are pogroms against Elves and Dwarves much the same that there were against Jews in Eastern Europe. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/pogroms Plus the general way that Elves and Dwarves are treated as second class citizens.
 

jandg

Banned
Dec 23, 2019
141
I honestly don't get the problem with diversity in games. Games can be all white for me, or all Asian like pretty much all Asian games. But I do dislike diversity just for the checkbox, having it forced in with no coherency.

I think this kind of thing is just a lot less if a thing in Europe than it is in the US. People are slamming on CDPR but Poland just isn't a very diverse country. It would probably feel very forced and unnatural to them because it's so different in their everyday life
 

jandg

Banned
Dec 23, 2019
141
I love the diversity present in the Netflix version, it just makes me sad that the CDPR version wasn't already diverse because I struggle with the characters in the Netflix series now - it makes the casting feel off as opposed to my first experience of the universe just being shitty.

The one thing I can say to back this up, without it feeling vaguely racist is that Geralt doesn't sound right without that ridiculously clean cut American accent. And that's just plain wrong as all throughout CDPR's Witcher I found his American accent off-putting, but now it's gone it barely seems like Geralt.
Honestly, I feel this is just making things kind of rediculous. Those characters in Witcher the game, you loved them because if how well written they were, how well they were acted in the game, the quests and adventures you did with them.

You did not love them because of their hair colour or their skin colour.

Sometimes I feel some people are defining characters based in these surface level characteristics instead of what those characters really are in more depth.
 

Blackthorn

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,324
London
Fantasy fans being able to easily accept elves, dwarves, trolls, dragons and but bending over backwards to justify worlds not having non-white people will never stop being hilarious.
 

Jimmy Joe

Member
Aug 8, 2019
2,213
For what it's worth there are lots of people of color in the books, both native to the regions being depicted and as travelers from foreign lands.

The world of the Witcher doesn't map perfectly to historical earth population spreads and Sapkowski did mix things up quite a bit—though, as has been pointed out, medieval eastern Europe had a lot of non-white people in it, probably more than today

Was it always for the best? No; he definitely stumbles in places. But the world of the Witcher is a very diverse place, and CDPR faceplanted in terms of adapting that part of the setting (as well as a few others)
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
For what it's worth there are lots of people of color in the books, both native to the regions being depicted and as travelers from foreign lands.

The world of the Witcher doesn't map perfectly to historical earth population spreads (which were a lot more mixed than historical revisionists like to pretend anyway), and Sapkowski did mix things up quite a bit

Was it always for the best? No; he definitely stumbles in places. But the world of the Witcher is a very diverse place, and CDPR faceplanted in terms of adapting that part of the setting (as well as a few others)

Are you sure? I've heard some people say there are two people of color in the books and I'm pretty sure Flipyap (sp?) has said there are no people of color in the books and he/she seems to be very well read on the series.
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,632
I honestly don't get the problem with diversity in games. Games can be all white for me, or all Asian like pretty much all Asian games. But I do dislike diversity just for the checkbox, having it forced in with no coherency.

I think this kind of thing is just a lot less if a thing in Europe than it is in the US. People are slamming on CDPR but Poland just isn't a very diverse country. It would probably feel very forced and unnatural to them because it's so different in their everyday life

I dont exactly get what you mean by diversity for the checkbox/having it forced with no coherency. In general, race shouldn't matter at all, and as a result, it shouldn't affect the quality of the piece of media itself if you change characters that were initially white in the design phase or something to other minorities to get a bit more diversity.

Like I legit cant think of a reason having more diversity would ever be a negative thing tbh.

I do sort of agree about CDPR though. Their previous games never took off in the same way as witcher 3 and being fairly closed off as they are, it makes sense to me that diversity might have just slipped through the cracks for them rather than a bigger design decision like "they should all be white". This feels especially true after they included more diversity in the dlc after it was brought to their attention in the base game.
 

Chromie

Member
Dec 4, 2017
5,277
Washington
The Witcher 3 is a straight white male game's wet dream come true and I'm convinced that's a huge reason for it's success. Because that gameplay is fucking atrocious and the characters interactions are often ridiculous and immensely cringe worthy, especially when the long cast of perfectly beautiful women *hint hint* is involved.

What about women? Minorities? LGBT?
What if we like the game and have been playing them since 2007?
 

Jimmy Joe

Member
Aug 8, 2019
2,213
Are you sure? I've heard some people say there are two people of color in the books and I'm pretty sure Flipyap (sp?) has said there are no people of color in the books and he/she seems to be very well read on the series.
It's possible I'm misremembering, I suppose; the two people being referred to are, I think, foreign mercenaries in one of the short stories, who are noteworthy for their nationality rather than just their race (though their depiction, according to my spotty memory, is... weird)
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
Sounds like bullshit. Why not an alternate historical japan that wasn't closed off? Too fantasy for you?
"You cannot have a closed-off Japan setting in historical fiction because it wouldn't be diverse" sure is a take.

Non-diverse societies have been, and probably still are, a thing.



The thing is there are black or asian slavic people. By implying that a game focussing on polish issues can't have a diverse cast, you paint the picture that whiteness is somehow related to being polish.
I got the impression that Poland had/currently has a very white society from this thread. Seems like that's a myth, so fair's fair, I'll withdraw my judgement about the Witcher games' world.

That said, I still believe there's nothing inherently wrong with people from non-diverse societies creating non-diverse settings (especially if those settings are based somewhat on real non-diverse societies).