Asian ERA |OT| We don't AGE

Cow Mengde · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid said:
Maybe we can focus on both.

Why? Are you saying Asian men choose not to date Asian women and only want to date white women? Why don't we broaden the subject and ask them why other men get their disdain too? These men aren't Asian, and by all accounts, should be superior to dating Asian men as well. Seriously, they really don't have to date Asian men.

SRG01 · Oct 7, 2018

Pet said:
Re: Asking racist Asian women to examine themselves...

meph and I actually had this discussion, thanks to this thread, about that. What he said was essentially the raindrop never thinks it's responsible for the flood, and he questioned the effectiveness of telling those women to look at themselves if the racial and social power dynamics/issue continue on in the US (white people being seen as the acceptance).

Is it beneficial for an Asian woman to date a white man? Yes. We can't deny this. A part of it may be self hate, but there's definitely self interest. Even if those people KNOW that they're perpetuating stereotypes, it's still more beneficial for them. It's selfish, but they believe it's better for them and they're willing to be the "oh he married an Asian girl."

Myself, personally, have NO idea how to bring this up. I have a couple cousins in my family who were raised out in Minnesota, and I adore them as people but both of they don't "like" Asian guys and want to only marry a white guy (one of my cousins did marry a white dude.) They KNOW that they've been through a period of self-hate but deny that that's an issue now (I have serious reservations). But, how do you bring this up tactfully, without it coming across as "you should not be with someone who isn't your race." It's racist. My dad has straight up told them that they shouldn't date nonChinese and he'll find them good husbands in California... cringe all around.

They're educated, bright, attractive, accomplished women. There's no getting through to them. I don't know how to broach this topic. I assume if they grew up here in CA, they'd date Asian men, but they didn't. In fact, they view the family in Cali as "weirdly Asian," and they definitely don't see it in a positive way (they aren't into the whole being Asian thing). So, I don't think that their obsession with white people is so much just an AF/WM thing, but rather a reflection of what it means to be Asian in America. It's not about Asian men or Asian women, but rather just racism against Asians (and more importantly, how white America still wants to insist that being white is better than anything else.)

I'm going to bring a weird tangent to this, but I swear it's relevant.

One half of my family tree is Tanka. For those who don't know what that is, it's basically an ostracized ethnic group in SE China that lived on the sea and shunned by land dwellers. This group was composed of fishers, pirates, and prostitutes (stereotypically) but had a rich culture of the sea, song, and language. It was also one of the few groups that freely associated with the colonial British, supplying them with resources and such.

Skipping several decades of history into the years shortly after WWII, the Tanka settled back onto Hong Kong island, this time many of them freely giving up their past associations and culture to blend in with the greater Hong Kong culture and language. And why wouldn't they assimilate, after spending centuries as an ostracized ethnic group? There was no pride within the culture, if it meant they never got to live on land.

We see greater evidence of this in Chinese culture as well. It's all assimilation from multiple conquests and dynasties. There's a reason why the 'definition' of the ethnic Han keeps increasing -- because everyone assimilates into the greater cultural group. There's no disincentive for it -- especially after colonialism, after numerous wars, and if they hold no great love for their past culture.

I keep trying to hammer this home: outmarriage in Asian ethnicities is a natural result of collective cultural traumas, of colonialism, and of the immigrant experience especially in North America. The cited 50%+ outmarriage rate for AAW? That same statistic is around 33% for AAM.

Can the people who outmarry be self-aware of their own cultural trauma? Of course. Of course. But it takes time and genuine intention to learn.

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Cow Mengde said:
Why? Are you saying Asian men choose not to date Asian women and only want to date white women? Why don't we broaden the subject and ask them why other men get their disdain too? These men aren't Asian, and by all accounts, should be superior to dating Asian men as well. Seriously, they really don't have to date Asian men.

Why not?

And yes, there are absolutely Asian men that see white women as a trophy of sorts, an accomplishment that being with an Asian women isn't to them. But that isn't the main point I was trying to make.

We can and should absolutely be talking about Asian women who date white men for racist reasons. But based on the last page of this thread it seems like that's all some of you want to talk about. I just don't understand the apparent fixation on this particular issue when it's just one of many facing Asian-Americans.

Cow Mengde · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid said:
But based on the last page of this thread it seems like that's all some of you want to talk about. I just don't understand the apparent fixation on this particular issue when it's just one of many facing Asian-Americans.

Well then, good thing I was hammering about racism this whole time and spending my time bringing up other examples of shit being committed. I only brought up dating cause I was addressing Pet's dilemma.

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Cow Mengde said:
Well then, good thing I was hammering about racism this whole time and spending my time bringing up other examples of shit being committed. I only brought up dating cause I was addressing Pet's dilemma.

Yeah, you called me racist because I had the audacity to suggest that Asian men had a misogyny issue and because I wasn't focusing explicitly on Asian women dating non-Asian men, right? That's not really what I'm talking about.

If that's not what you were doing, then please clarify, because I can't read your mind and thus cannot divine your intent when all you post is snide, 1-sentence remarks to my posts.

TrailerParkRanger · Oct 7, 2018

Can't we all just go out and be cool over hotpot instead?

Deleted member 907 · Oct 7, 2018

In regards to broaching the subject of being tactful:

Isn't this the paradox created by second wave feminism and reinforced by the third wave?

Cow Mengde · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid said:
Yeah, you called me racist because I had the audacity to suggest that Asian men had a misogyny issue and because I wasn't focusing explicitly on Asian women dating non-Asian men, right? That's not really what I'm talking about.

If that's not what you were doing, then please clarify, because I can't read your mind and thus cannot divine your intent when all you post is snide, 1-sentence remarks to my posts.

Your posts were the equivalent of some saying all lives matter/blue lives matter when people try to bring up black lives matter. Yes there is sexism. Nobody is pretending that Asian men are the holy light of goodness. However, when Power of Sparda brought up the racism towards Asian men, you come in to derail with something else. Yes, there are plenty of problems, however, what we're talking about are things that are often swept under a rug and ignored. This like whenever black people are killed by people, and other come in chiming in how dangerous it is for a cop.

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Cow Mengde said:
Your posts were the equivalent of some saying all lives matter/blue lives matter when people try to bring up black lives matter. Yes there is sexism. Nobody is pretending that Asian men are the holy light of goodness. However, when Power of Sparda brought up the racism towards Asian men, you come in to derail with something else. Yes, there are plenty of problems, however, what we're talking about are things that are often swept under a rug and ignored. This like whenever black people are killed by people, and other come in chiming in how dangerous it is for a cop.

Nah, I wasn't derailing that, I was wondering why he was apparently willing to throw out all the other shit in favor of that specific issue. I never said it wasn't an issue, and I never said we shouldn't be talking about it.

D65 · Oct 7, 2018

I'll contribute more seriously. My ex won't date Japanese guys because she associates sexism with them. Of course, she is wrong to limit her dating pool and honestly, has had not a lick of luck trying dates with white expats, but she also says she feels like she can't be herself when speaking Japanese.

I've heard this multiple times from different people. As Asian girls, they're expected to be smile and be kind otherwise they're seen as awful people. For some, they associate Asian relationships with that sexist culture they want to escape from.

My opinion overall is that it's an awful thing to exclude, assume and have that expectation... I don't know if that has anything to do with the AsAm situation.

When there is a sexist culture and dating within that culture sucks, it makes sense why someone would be enticed to date out of it. But it's a bad idea I think because it glorifies yet another sexist culture. This time it's one they're just immediately aware of our not traumatised by.

For South Asian friends, it's similar yet I know most of people I've talked to (men) have a much wider preference but have it in their mind that they can just marry a girl from their country any time they want. A girl I work close is separated recently...

TickleMeElbow · Oct 7, 2018

Pet said:
Re: Asking racist Asian women to examine themselves...

meph and I actually had this discussion, thanks to this thread, about that. What he said was essentially the raindrop never thinks it's responsible for the flood, and he questioned the effectiveness of telling those women to look at themselves if the racial and social power dynamics/issue continue on in the US (white people being seen as the acceptance).

Is it beneficial for an Asian woman to date a white man? Yes. We can't deny this. A part of it may be self hate, but there's definitely self interest. Even if those people KNOW that they're perpetuating stereotypes, it's still more beneficial for them. It's selfish, but they believe it's better for them and they're willing to be the "oh he married an Asian girl."

Myself, personally, have NO idea how to bring this up. I have a couple cousins in my family who were raised out in Minnesota, and I adore them as people but both of they don't "like" Asian guys and want to only marry a white guy (one of my cousins did marry a white dude.) They KNOW that they've been through a period of self-hate but deny that that's an issue now (I have serious reservations). But, how do you bring this up tactfully, without it coming across as "you should not be with someone who isn't your race." It's racist. My dad has straight up told them that they shouldn't date nonChinese and he'll find them good husbands in California... cringe all around.

They're educated, bright, attractive, accomplished women. There's no getting through to them. I don't know how to broach this topic. I assume if they grew up here in CA, they'd date Asian men, but they didn't. In fact, they view the family in Cali as "weirdly Asian," and they definitely don't see it in a positive way (they aren't into the whole being Asian thing). So, I don't think that their obsession with white people is so much just an AF/WM thing, but rather a reflection of what it means to be Asian in America. It's not about Asian men or Asian women, but rather just racism against Asians (and more importantly, how white America still wants to insist that being white is better than anything else.)

Show them r/hapas. Then tell them that if they don't cut the racist shit they're going to have fucked up children who post on r/hapas lol.

But seriously, my mom is Asian and my dad is white. I'm not against WMAF couplings at all.

The thing is, my mom never talked shit about or looked down on Asian men. She's always found Asian men attractive, just happened to marry a white dude. She married a broke white man in Japan back when that shit was frowned upon, so I know there's a different dynamic than "she's trying to marry up in society". My dad never talked shit or looked down on Asian men. He speaks Japanese. He encouraged me to learn the language and the culture. Because of his job, I grew up moving back and forth between both countries. He even made me go to Japanese language school every Saturday while living in the US.

Now imagine you're a hapa boy and your mom thinks Asian men aren't shit....yet in the US you're going to be an Asian man. Imagine if your existence is in part due to racism. Imagine being made to feel ashamed of your ethnicity outside of the home, then coming home to undercurrents of that as well. Imagine how your Asian mom would feel if you said you won't date Asian women and that you'll ONLY date white women. I know my mom would feel hurt if I said I would never date a Japanese woman.

I guess my point is that Asian parents, family, and friends should call out racism when it's happening, and stop being racist themselves. Like, don't pressure your kid into only marrying Asian, but also call them out when they say they'll only date white, or will never date Asian.

I guess getting that point across would be the hardest part though

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

TickleMeElbow said:
Show them r/hapas. Then tell them that if they don't cut the racist shit they're going to have fucked up children who post on r/hapas lol.

But seriously, my mom is Asian and my dad is white. I'm not against WMAF couplings at all.

The thing is, my mom never talked shit about or looked down on Asian men. She's always found Asian men attractive, just happened to marry a white dude. She married a broke white man in Japan back when that shit was frowned upon, so I know there's a different dynamic than "she's trying to marry up in society". My dad never talked shit or looked down on Asian men. He speaks Japanese. He encouraged me to learn the language and the culture. Because of his job, I grew up moving back and forth between both countries. He even made me go to Japanese language school every Saturday while living in the US.

Now imagine you're a hapa boy and your mom thinks Asian men aren't shit....yet in the US you're going to be an Asian man. Imagine if your existence is in part due to racism. Imagine being made to feel ashamed of your ethnicity outside of the home, then coming home to undercurrents of that as well. Imagine how your Asian mom would feel if you said you won't date Asian women and that you'll ONLY date white women. I know my mom would feel hurt if I said I would never date a Japanese woman.

I guess my point is that Asian parents, family, and friends should call out racism when it's happening, and stop being racist themselves. Like, don't pressure your kid into only marrying Asian, but also call them out when they say they'll only date white, or will never date Asian.

I guess getting that point across would be the hardest part though

None of the ideas that need to get communicated are all that complicated in the end. The hard part is people being willing to have those hard discussions AND (more importantly) people being open-minded and receptive to those ideas.

Pet · Oct 7, 2018

TrailerParkRanger said:
Can't we all just go out and be cool over hotpot instead?

I'm trying to imagine this conversation over hotpot. Maybe we shouldn't be having heated discussions with literally boiling pots in front of us :p.

(Seriously though, the weather got cold and now all I want is hotpot and Korean tofu and ramen and beef noodle soup @__@.)

Power of Sparda said:
In regards to broaching the subject of being tactful:

Isn't this the paradox created by second wave feminism and reinforced by the third wave?

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain how second wave feminism and third wave feminism created this paradox? (I'm also not sure what you mean by paradox, so clarifying that would help me respond better to you.)

TickleMeElbow said:
I guess my point is that Asian parents, family, and friends should call out racism when it's happening, and stop being racist themselves. Like, don't pressure your kid into only marrying Asian, but also call them out when they say they'll only date white, or will never date Asian.

I do my best. It was a lost battle with my cousin b/c she always looks down on others. Hard to have a real argument with her, though I guess arguments aren't really for the other person but rather the audience.

Cow Mengde · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid said:
Nah, I wasn't derailing that, I was wondering why he was apparently willing to throw out all the other shit in favor of that specific issue. I never said it wasn't an issue, and I never said we shouldn't be talking about it.

We're not the ones trying to throw out other issues. Those of us who argued with you have acknowledged sexism being a problem. It's ok to acknowledge both issues exist, but not lump them together to try and brush off another problem. We didn't try to brush off sexism.

I do think that people bring up dating a lot since there's actual research into the matter. Just cold hard statistics. It is the biggest elephant in the room. Many white supremacists have Asian girlfriends. Which BTW, is extremely sexist to pretend that Asian women have no agency in this matter. Pretty sure they have a choice.

Here, read this article. I dug it up for you. It describes exactly the problem I'm talking about.
https://nextshark.com/asian-men-endure-unique-type-racism-asian-women-shouldnt-ignore/

TickleMeElbow · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid said:
None of the ideas that need to get communicated are all that complicated in the end. The hard part is people being willing to have those hard discussions AND (more importantly) people being open-minded and receptive to those ideas.

Yeah.

I guess if younger Asian progressives are willing to call out racism in all sorts of situations, I can hope that they'll call it out amongst their own when they start families.

If my kid came up to me and said they'd never date a black person I'd lose my shit, just like my parents would've lost their shit. I guess that's the perk of being raised by ex-hippie types.

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Cow Mengde said:
We're not the ones trying to throw out other issues. Those of us who argued with you have acknowledged sexism being a problem. It's ok to acknowledge both issues exist, but not lump them together to try and brush off another problem. We didn't try to brush off sexism.

I do think that people bring up dating a lot since there's actual research into the matter. Just cold hard statistics. It is the biggest elephant in the room. Many white supremacists have Asian girlfriends. Which BTW, is extremely sexist to pretend that Asian women have no agency in this matter. Pretty sure they have a choice.

Here, read this article. I dug it up for you. It describes exactly the problem I'm talking about.
https://nextshark.com/asian-men-endure-unique-type-racism-asian-women-shouldnt-ignore/

And I didn't try to brush off racism. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

If he had said "Hey, they really should have mentioned this issue in their manifesto because X/Y/Z" we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, he basically said "Nah, they didn't include this specific issue, so fuck the entire thing" when the entire thing is spot on aside from the omission of that particular issue. And no, I don't think omitting that particular issue taints their view on the rest, and I think that if you compared their writing in there to feminist and progressive writing in other communities you'd find quite a bit of overlap.

I'm well aware of what the issue is, and I read that article when it came out.

Deleted member 907 · Oct 7, 2018

Pet said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain how second wave feminism and third wave feminism created this paradox? (I'm also not sure what you mean by paradox, so clarifying that would help me respond better to you.)

Second wave is the sexual revolution and third wave injects the complications of race into that equation. This is where "you can't tell me who I can and can't fuck" comes from when Asian women say it in reference to being questioned about going white. Third wave is what the manifesto heavily references and that is exactly why I have a huge issue with the patriarchy section because it reverts back to second wave, which is colorblind.

cdyhybrid said:
And I didn't try to brush off racism. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

If he had said "Hey, they really should have mentioned this issue in their manifesto because X/Y/Z" we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, he basically said "Nah, they didn't include this specific issue, so fuck the entire thing" when the entire thing is spot on aside from the omission of that particular issue. And no, I don't think omitting that particular issue taints their view on the rest, and I think that if you compared their writing in there to feminist and progressive writing in other communities you'd find quite a bit of overlap.

I'm well aware of what the issue is, and I read that article when it came out.

Well, we all read things differently, right?

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Power of Sparda said:
Well, we all read things differently, right?

I mean, how else am I supposed to read quotes like this?

Power of Sparda said:
Yeah, no thanks.

You say no thanks to the entire thing, with no qualifications.

Power of Sparda said:
And then they use white supremacist language and white supremacist imaging to call out Asian men using white feminist framework.

You straight up accuse them of using white supremacist language and imaging to further white supremacy. That would pretty clearly taint their opinions on the rest of the topics covered, no?

So what is it?

D i Z · Oct 7, 2018

Never mind. Fly on the wall.

Deleted member 907 · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid said:
I mean, how else am I supposed to read quotes like this?

You say no thanks to the entire thing, with no qualifications.

You straight up accuse them of using white supremacist language and imaging to further white supremacy. That would pretty clearly taint their opinions on the rest of the topics covered, no?

So what is it?

Pretty sure I answered it in the reply to Pet, sport.

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Power of Sparda said:
Pretty sure I answered it in the reply to Pet, sport.

You mean the one where you admitted to lurking r/AM after you freaked out about me associating you with it? That one?

Deleted member 907 · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid said:
You mean the one where you admitted to lurking r/AM after you freaked out about me associating you with it? That one?

I freaked out? I couldn't give a shit if you know I lurk those subreddits. A lot of us here do and it's pretty obvious who does. Like I said, you were the one that turned me on to it.

You'd just rather take pot shots at me because it's easier than addressing my points, which is why you ignore 90% of my posts and create low hanging fruit for yourself to cherry pick. It's pretty transparent. I can't teach you how to read, brother.

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Power of Sparda said:
I freaked out? I couldn't give a shit if you know I lurk those subreddits. A lot of us here do and it's pretty obvious who does. Like I said, you were the one that turned me on to it.

You'd just rather take pot shots at me because it's easier than addressing my points, which is why you ignore 90% of my posts and create low hanging fruit for yourself to cherry pick. It's pretty transparent. I can't teach you how to read, brother.

Nah, I've already addressed everything you put in that spoiler, TBH. You still seem like you're making excuses for people, intentionally or not. I'll expand for the class.

You imply that the women those subreddits go after deserve the harassment (which is really odd, because you earlier claimed you draw the line at the harassment):

3. I lurk AM and AI and let's be honest, the women that they drag are the ones that shit on Asian guys

You imply that the oppression of Asian males in the US somehow offsets misogynistic trends in Asian communities, as if Asian males having less privilege than white men means anything to the victims of their privilege:

1. Asian American men benefiting from patriarchal sins of the homeland is contradicted by virtue of being in the US. Male privilege exists for Asian American men in a very limited fashion the same way white privilege exists for Asian/Asian American women that have white male partners.

I can't rock with this shit, champ. Also, if you want to ratchet down the heat in this discussion then be the change you want to see in the world. I'm just matching your energy.

Deleted member 907 · Oct 7, 2018

cdyhybrid Here's some tea:

Power of Sparda said:
Second wave is the sexual revolution and third wave injects the complications of race into that equation. This is where "you can't tell me who I can and can't fuck" comes from when Asian women say it in reference to being questioned about going white. Third wave is what the manifesto heavily references and that is exactly why I have a huge issue with the patriarchy section because it reverts back to second wave, which is colorblind.

Well, we all read things differently, right?

That last part is a referencing a comment you made to TickleMeElbow.

At this point, I think it's time to de-escalate. No point in having hard feelings arguing over 2 sides of the same coin.

Pet · Oct 7, 2018

Power of Sparda said:
Second wave is the sexual revolution and third wave injects the complications of race into that equation. This is where "you can't tell me who I can and can't fuck" comes from when Asian women say it in reference to being questioned about going white. Third wave is what the manifesto heavily references and that is exactly why I have a huge issue with the patriarchy section because it reverts back to second wave, which is colorblind.

I missed the spoiler BTW.

I don't associate "I can fuck who I want" to be the reason why I don't bring this up. I have a hard time bringing this up because saying "you should fuck <this race of man>, not <other race of man> men," is racist as hell to me. So, in short, no, it's not second or third wave feminism that causes my hesitation. It's not about tact about sexual freedom, it's about racism. Even if that's not what I'm saying, the message is.... anti-interracial marriages/relationships, which is incredibly racist. Like, I know that the message is actually "why do you hate your own race," but that's not what anyone else is going to hear if I say anything like "hey maybe you should consider why you don't date Asian men, and only white men?" I mean, to me, it's not a bad question, but it's going to get misinterpreted as being about race and not power/social structures.

Before the feminism that allowed us women to actually have sex with who we want, women who had sex were punished, while the men were able to skate clean away. Not just in America. My closest friend, who is Taiwanese American like myself, said that her mother was terrified she (the daughter) might have premarital sex because women who did that were literally stoned to death in her area of Taiwan. It fucked my friend up for YEARS. In the US, women who had the reputation of having sex were shamed, disowned, abused, before feminism came along and went "hey women have the right to fuck just like men have been doing for all these years." I will never condone second or third wave feminism for the sexual liberty it's granted us. I'm glad it happened. What happened with the freedom for self-hating Asian women to exclusively fuck white men is a symptom of the racism against Asians in America, not the aftereffect of sexual revolution.

We would be much worse off if our racist ass parents were allowed to control their daughters and force them to fuck and marry who the fathers wanted by using societal shunning and community-approved physical violence as a tool. A vagina doesn't belong to anyone but the person who has it.

cdyhybrid · Oct 7, 2018

Power of Sparda said:
cdyhybrid Here's some tea:

That last part is a referencing a comment you made to TickleMeElbow.

At this point, I think it's time to de-escalate. No point in having hard feelings arguing over 2 sides of the same coin.

I have no hard feelings, Era ain't serious enough for that.

I agree that they probably should have mentioned that issue in the manifesto, if only for thoroughness's sake. I just don't think racism among Asian women toward Asian men should be brought up as a response to criticisms of Asian male misogyny (and vice versa). I think they are both problems that need to be addressed, but they can be criticized separately without trying to pull in the other issue. We cannot end either of them if we cannot accept that these are issues in our community without conditionals and "yeah, but"s. They might feed into each other occasionally, but if one problem ceased to exist the other not would magically disappear, because they both ultimately are heavily influenced by the same source in this country (white patriarchy).

wandering · Oct 7, 2018

I feel like people make it out to be worse than it really is, and then it leads to annoying shit like non-Asians here and back on GAF making underhanded comments about the love lives of Asian men.

hermit · Oct 7, 2018

let us celebrate our new arrangement with the adding of chocolate to milk

BLOODED_hands · Oct 7, 2018

hermit said:
let us celebrate our new arrangement with the adding of chocolate to milk

You're a monster :P

Let us come together and eat some food. Who is going to grab the check first? Lol.

Pet · Oct 8, 2018

BLOODED_hands said:
You're a monster :P

Let us come together and eat some food. Who is going to grab the check first? Lol.

The master doesn't even need to grab for the check.

;D

wandering said:
I feel like people make it out to be worse than it really is, and then it leads to annoying shit like non-Asians here and back on GAF making underhanded comments about the love lives of Asian men.

Yeah it might just be the area I live in but ethnicity doesn't affect how hard it is to date. From my personal experience, the current culture of dating is just.... weird (to me). It's very different. Not necessarily in a good way, either.

Deleted member 907 · Oct 8, 2018

Pet said:
I missed the spoiler BTW.

I don't associate "I can fuck who I want" to be the reason why I don't bring this up. I have a hard time bringing this up because saying "you should fuck <this race of man>, not <other race of man> men," is racist as hell to me. So, in short, no, it's not second or third wave feminism that causes my hesitation. It's not about tact about sexual freedom, it's about racism. Even if that's not what I'm saying, the message is.... anti-interracial marriages/relationships, which is incredibly racist. Like, I know that the message is actually "why do you hate your own race," but that's not what anyone else is going to hear if I say anything like "hey maybe you should consider why you don't date Asian men, and only white men?" I mean, to me, it's not a bad question, but it's going to get misinterpreted as being about race and not power/social structures.

Before the feminism that allowed us women to actually have sex with who we want, women who had sex were punished, while the men were able to skate clean away. Not just in America. My closest friend, who is Taiwanese American like myself, said that her mother was terrified she (the daughter) might have premarital sex because women who did that were literally stoned to death in her area of Taiwan. It fucked my friend up for YEARS. In the US, women who had the reputation of having sex were shamed, disowned, abused, before feminism came along and went "hey women have the right to fuck just like men have been doing for all these years." I will never condone second or third wave feminism for the sexual liberty it's granted us. I'm glad it happened. What happened with the freedom for self-hating Asian women to exclusively fuck white men is a symptom of the racism against Asians in America, not the aftereffect of sexual revolution.

We would be much worse off if our racist ass parents were allowed to control their daughters and force them to fuck and marry who the fathers wanted by using societal shunning and community-approved physical violence as a tool. A vagina doesn't belong to anyone but the person who has it.

What I put in the spoiler isn't that important and it's more to let you know that I'm not ignoring you or your points. By that post, the conversation had already progressed anyways.

In regards to "fuck who I want," I'm not saying that your acquaintances have internalized those feminist tenets or that you aren't broaching that subject because of them, but that they're just co-opting the language as a cover for internalized racism and racism is a power structure. It's also why I try to drift away from calling things "racist" when "white supremacy" is a much more accurate term. Obviously a vast majority of people don't see racism as a power structure, so it's going to be lost in translation no matter how you put it. So long story short, we agree for the most part.

Pet · Oct 8, 2018

No one said that this would be easy (tackling white supremacy), but for what it's worth, I'm super grateful we were all able to have these discussions. Something about being able to have "real talk" (unfiltered) about Asian American issues among Asian Americans for an Asian American audience, is just really nice and makes me feel a sense of community. Thanks everyone!

(I hope y'all know what I mean. Sometimes I feel like a lot of talks we have about white supremacy in regards to Asians has to be framed in a way that makes it obvious it's white America that's the audience, not our fellow Asian Americans.)

Deleted member 907 · Oct 8, 2018

Pet said:
The master doesn't even need to grab for the check.

;D

These youngins aren't ready for the secret yet. Maybe one day...

Zoe I saw 3 episodes of Kim's Convenience tonight and I love it. Now that is a heaping helping of some positive representation right there. Is it problematic? Not in my opinion, but I'm still in the afterglow...haha. It really feels like it's made for us, by us in the way the characters are fully realized people and not caricatures.

wandering · Oct 8, 2018

See, I never have to bother with getting the check cause I just constantly buy people alcohol

At this point all my friends have lines of credit with me, and they pay me in delicious food

BLOODED_hands · Oct 8, 2018

wandering said:
See, I never have to bother with getting the check cause I just constantly buy people alcohol

At this point all my friends have lines of credit with me, and they pay me in delicious food

Lol. This is.... I'm going to borrow this the next time I'm out.

SRG01 · Oct 8, 2018

wandering said:
See, I never have to bother with getting the check cause I just constantly buy people alcohol

At this point all my friends have lines of credit with me, and they pay me in delicious food

I still think the best tactic is to have a tab with the restaurant beforehand.

I think some of you here already know the backstory, but my family went out to dinner with one of our neighbours (who's quite well-off) and when we offered to pay, he's like 'oh don't worry about it, I have a tab with the restaurant.'

TrailerParkRanger · Oct 8, 2018

Death Race: Beyond Anarchy is a horrible movie.

D65 · Oct 8, 2018

SRG01 said:
I still think the best tactic is to have a tab with the restaurant beforehand.

I think some of you here already know the backstory, but my family went out to dinner with one of our neighbours (who's quite well-off) and when we offered to pay, he's like 'oh don't worry about it, I have a tab with the restaurant.'

Hmm, having a tab doesn't "pay" for the meal though. This is a bad strategy because what stops someone from paying the tab? haha

The best is clearly working at the restaurant and instead of bringing the bill you pay for it. Next level. (that was an expensive new years eve)

D65 · Oct 8, 2018

My keto meals are evolving

Jintor · Oct 8, 2018

D65 · Oct 8, 2018

Jintor said:

Lol I saw this every day at work. A little more anger maybe.

Cybit · Oct 8, 2018

Pet said:
(Also, as an aside, I read the book, along with many of my Asian friends, and none of us got the message white=right or whatever. If you ask me, that kind of mindset gets perpetuated in places with low Asian populations. I bet if we took a look at the rate of interracial marriages between AF/WM, it would vary widely based on geographical location).

Pet said:
Myself, personally, have NO idea how to bring this up. I have a couple cousins in my family who were raised out in Minnesota, and I adore them as people but both of they don't "like" Asian guys and want to only marry a white guy (one of my cousins did marry a white dude.) They KNOW that they've been through a period of self-hate but deny that that's an issue now (I have serious reservations). But, how do you bring this up tactfully, without it coming across as "you should not be with someone who isn't your race." It's racist. My dad has straight up told them that they shouldn't date nonChinese and he'll find them good husbands in California... cringe all around.

They're educated, bright, attractive, accomplished women. There's no getting through to them. I don't know how to broach this topic. I assume if they grew up here in CA, they'd date Asian men, but they didn't. In fact, they view the family in Cali as "weirdly Asian," and they definitely don't see it in a positive way (they aren't into the whole being Asian thing). So, I don't think that their obsession with white people is so much just an AF/WM thing, but rather a reflection of what it means to be Asian in America. It's not about Asian men or Asian women, but rather just racism against Asians (and more importantly, how white America still wants to insist that being white is better than anything else.)

Hey y'all, how are things go...ing? :D Feel like I missed some shit lol.

I'm not remotely as, uh, well read about this stuff as y'all are in terms of intersectionality (which in my little 'verse, seems to get used more as a cudgel for "focus on my specific subgroup instead of yours otherwise you are a bad ally and a terrible human being") and white supremacy and patriarchy and all that stuff. So, I'll just sort of nod my head along on most of the points being made up there, because they all sort of make some kind of sense to me.

I have been avoiding posting about this because the pain is still too fresh, but my ex-wife is white. Pet's points about where you grew up are pretty accurate in my experience, growing up in rural-ish IL. Just didn't know many asian women my age. Sometimes I see y'all post about growing up on the West Coast and I wonder how much differently I'd see the world if I had that. Not sure necessarily in a better way though. :-p

Deleted member 907 · Oct 8, 2018

Cybit said:
Hey y'all, how are things go...ing? :D Feel like I missed some shit lol.

I'm not remotely as, uh, well read about this stuff as y'all are in terms of intersectionality (which in my little 'verse, seems to get used more as a cudgel for "focus on my specific subgroup instead of yours otherwise you are a bad ally and a terrible human being") and white supremacy and patriarchy and all that stuff. So, I'll just sort of nod my head along on most of the points being made up there, because they all sort of make some kind of sense to me.

I have been avoiding posting about this because the pain is still too fresh, but my ex-wife is white. Pet's points about where you grew up are pretty accurate in my experience, growing up in rural-ish IL. Just didn't know many asian women my age. Sometimes I see y'all post about growing up on the West Coast and I wonder how much differently I'd see the world if I had that. Not sure necessarily in a better way though. :-p

Sorry to hear about your situation, brother. Things will get better. Feel free to vent or send me a pm.

Cow Mengde · Oct 8, 2018

Cybit said:
I have been avoiding posting about this because the pain is still too fresh, but my ex-wife is white. Pet's points about where you grew up are pretty accurate in my experience, growing up in rural-ish IL. Just didn't know many asian women my age. Sometimes I see y'all post about growing up on the West Coast and I wonder how much differently I'd see the world if I had that. Not sure necessarily in a better way though. :-p

This is why you shouldn't just focus on dating. Interracial dating itself is perfectly find. We can't expect you to magically find Asian girls living in rural IL, nor should anyone give Asian girls the side eye for doing the same. It's people that get away with saying racist things, and face 0 backlash. They try to wipe out Asian men even in works of fiction. These people know they can get away with it, and they can turn it around by using feminism as a defense. No, there is nothing wrong with Asian feminism, but rather the way certain people use it.

When it comes to dating, even if you live in cities with a lot of Asians, just cause you're dating non-Asian means nothing. Someone who only dates white is what people are talking about. These people date white exclusively while throwing racist shit at other Asians. If this girl only dated 1 guy and he happens to be white, that's also not a reason to call her racist, unless again, she's throwing racist shit at other Asians. The elephant in the room is the statistics that over 50% of Asian women date outside their race. This is only observed in Asian women, and nowhere else. It's also overwhelmingly white. So let say Asian men are the unholy spawn of Satan, and should be wiped out; why do Asian women only gravitate towards White men and not Latino, Black, or other ethnicity? Oh sure, they are out there, but they are a very tiny minority.

Now comes the incredibly ironic part. Get ready for this...

SRG01 said:
I keep trying to hammer this home: outmarriage in Asian ethnicities is a natural result of collective cultural traumas, of colonialism, and of the immigrant experience especially in North America. The cited 50%+ outmarriage rate for AAW? That same statistic is around 33% for AAM.

What if I tell you that Asian men still want to be a relationship despite more than 50% Asian women are in relationships with non-Asians? Where would they find other women? Guess what, they have to date women of other ethnicity. Now I'm not saying it's necessarily the real reason behind the 33%, or that Asian men don't have issues of internalized racism. It's very likely that some of that number are driven by Asian women.

Asian women aren't the enemy. It's racist Asian women that are ruining things for us. No one dares to call out this subset of people.

Septimus Prime · Oct 8, 2018

I wonder if this also applies to Asian LGBTQ. Is there a huge gap in desirability there, too?

Miletius · Oct 8, 2018

Septimus Prime said:
I wonder if this also applies to Asian LGBTQ. Is there a huge gap in desirability there, too?

That's like comparing apples to oranges, tbh. The LGBTQ community has a totally different history and doesn't make a good comparison point. Asians are what, like 7 percent of US population? Now cut that down to about .7 percent (napkin math of 10 percent of population is queer). If Asian LGBT peeps are out dating at significant rates it's more a function of there being a much smaller pool for them to play in than the respective straight populations. As in, it would probably not be uncommon in rural America to never know another queer Asian at all until you visit a bigger metro area.

SRG01 · Oct 9, 2018

Cow Mengde said:
What if I tell you that Asian men still want to be a relationship despite more than 50% Asian women are in relationships with non-Asians? Where would they find other women? Guess what, they have to date women of other ethnicity. Now I'm not saying it's necessarily the real reason behind the 33%, or that Asian men don't have issues of internalized racism. It's very likely that some of that number are driven by Asian women.

Asian women aren't the enemy. It's racist Asian women that are ruining things for us. No one dares to call out this subset of people.

That's... such an incredible misreading of the statistic that I don't even know where to start. o_o

Like, it misses correlative factors such as: unmarried/single/divorced/widowed/remarriage statuses, cross-immigrant/generational marriage, gender distribution among ethnicities, distribution among different Asian subgroups, socioeconomic demographics, law of small numbers (relating to ethnic distribution and other things), and so on.

Not to mention that the bolded above in the quote is only for Asian Americans and does not count first-generation immigrants -- that specific statistic is around 31%, leading to an averaged outmarriage rate of still around 36% percent combining all generations of Asian women. I'll link the Pew study again: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/05/18/1-trends-and-patterns-in-intermarriage/

(The statistic that isn't often cited as much is that, back in 1980, the outmarriage rate of Asian American Males was nearly equal to Women at 46% compared to 49%.)

(Another really weird statistic is that intermarriage rates have actually fallen for Asians with high school or less degrees.)

I guess what I'm getting at with this is that statistics often craft pathways to where there needs to be more studies, or where we need to improve existing studies -- but dangerous if used without further analysis or data.

I mean, we can talk about internalized racism and all, but that in turn needs their own studies, not just conjecture and anecdote, if a subset of an entire ethnic gender is going to be called out like that.

edit: Oh, I just thought of this in the shower, but what about correlations between language retention and outmarriage rates? Or even 'cultural practices'? Is that even measurable?

Miletius said:
That's like comparing apples to oranges, tbh. The LGBTQ community has a totally different history and doesn't make a good comparison point. Asians are what, like 7 percent of US population? Now cut that down to about .7 percent (napkin math of 10 percent of population is queer). If Asian LGBT peeps are out dating at significant rates it's more a function of there being a much smaller pool for them to play in than the respective straight populations. As in, it would probably not be uncommon in rural America to never know another queer Asian at all until you visit a bigger metro area.

I'd love to see more sociological studies of Asians in Rural America (and Canada too). There's a lot of documentaries out there, but not enough hard studies on it.

SRG01 · Oct 9, 2018

Oh, and on a more hilarious note:

edit: The full set is at https://watch.cbc.ca/media/winnipeg-comedy-festival/season-16/episode-4/ he starts at around the 5min mark

Yinyangfooey · Oct 9, 2018

Well I totally missed a big conversation lol

As an Asian American who grew up in Ohio, I totally understand how you don't really come in contact with more Asians. I actually didn't like Asian girls until maybe high school? All my crushes up until that point were all white. I even found Asian women unattractive though, and that was probably because I only had two Asian women present in my life: my (kinda) tiger mom and a family friend. So obviously my perception of Asian women was quite limited.

Not sure what came over me, but I wanted to hang out with more Asian people at the end of high school. I even joined a Chinese church even though I wasn't religious just to make some Chinese friends. That didn't last very long lol. Then college came around and with all the Asian American student orgs I finally found a place where I felt like I belonged!

However now I feel like I'm trapped since I only find Asian women attractive and not any other races. Personally, I'm not sure whether that's the result of me being more in tune with my cultural identity and wanting to preserve it, or the fact that as an Asian guy, non Asian women might not be attracted to me from the get go, so why even bother? I know that some self internalizing bs but we all have some of that lol

D65 · Oct 9, 2018

Septimus Prime said:
I wonder if this also applies to Asian LGBTQ. Is there a huge gap in desirability there, too?

I think I've heard for Gay Asian men it is fucking horrible

Asian ERA |OT| We don't AGE

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