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Are you Abolition or Reform with regard to police and prisons?
- Thread starter Samiya
- Start date
The biggest problem with the American penal system is one that doesn't exist in the Nordic countries: the idea that punishment and righteous indignation should inform policy. Evidence based policy that focuses on reducing both crime and recidivism figures out the best thing to do with pedophiles, not politicians milking votes from angry mobs. Punishment shouldn't be about making angry people feel better, it should exist as one of many available tools that society can bring to bear when figuring out how to reduce crime while preserving the rights and freedoms of its members.
People in North America get outraged by Scandinavian prisons because the inmates are comfortable. They're not comfortable because they're being coddled, they're comfortable because policy follows research, and they're being set up to succeed when they re-enter society rather than fail.
Edit: Also, to be clear, I'm not saying incarceration shouldn't be a thing. I'm saying that the overcrowded prisons that are run for profit and which treat inmates like animals will look as barbaric in a couple of decades as horrific old school sanitariums look to us now.
I think couching all police forces in the context of slave-catching and colonialism is unreasonable. To police someone's behaviour doesn't mean to act like the gestapo. So yes, I'd still call a police force with proper oversight and the appropriate checks and balances a police force. Organized, state-run law enforcement doesn't have to be a legitimized gang. The most crucial role of the police should be to protect people, and that should go hand-in-hand with proper training, thorough background checks, legal recourse for those with complaints, real consequences for those who abuse power, etc. The basic idea of state employed professionals who work to secure the safety of the public by curtailing the activities of law breakers isn't a bad one at its core. The problem is in the execution, which is why you have riots in the US, but have a national day of mourning for the first suspect killed by police gunfire in Iceland back in 2013.
The two countries aren't the same, but all cops don't have to be bad. They're bad right now because they're a corrupt gang that protects its own, discriminates along racial lines, and gets away with murder again and again. That's true in the US, and it's also true here in Canada to a significant extent. Those are issues that can be resolved with good policy.
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Not exactly persuasive, or even true. In particular, what if the first person stabbed called and I'm 4th in line? Maybe the caller is toast, but I'd like it if I wasn't.
Sure, but then they're law enforcement by another name. That's not "abolition."
I'm not interested in the semantics of it, I want the actual policy in place. If someone wants to stab me, I want a phone number to call where people have to answer and send help, including potential use of force (not a gun, but tazers, mace, etc....).
They are in reality the same thing, it's just in how enthused people want to sound about it. Generally, we understand that certain people need to be removed at least temporarily from society, that's a prison. And that someone somehow needs to enforce the laws, that's police. What you call them is splitting hairs and they will always be vulnerable to a lot of the problems that come with this sort of power over another person.
What I think is mostly likely for police is bifurcation. You split the existing police into two groups one of which is unarmed and does the bulk of work where ongoing violence isn't happening. These could then report to a different command structure and serve as a sort of check on the armed counterparts. You'd expect much more money would go into the unarmed segment because that's the bulk of police work and they'd be trained more in mediation. They could make arrests too, they just would have no power to hold you, you'd have to go voluntarily.
For prisons, it's much harder to deal with the existing system and you'd need to renovate a lot. Basically all non-violent crime should be fines and house arrest. "But muh justice!" people can shut up, they aren't helping. Failure to comply or violent crime would go to a prison-looking thing but should not have sentencing. Inmates should have very specifically outlined goals they need to meet for release and they can complete them at the pace of their own abilities. They should have (managed) access to normal things like computers, books and recreation. They should have nutritious meals that attempt to taste good. They should have privacy by default. They should all be assigned a caseworker they meet with to help guide them through rehabilitation, psychiatric resources should be regularly available. They should be taking classes, perhaps virtually in partnership with other institutions or working for at least minimum wage pay. Prisons should look more like miniature communities because ultimately that's what you want to socialize them back to and progress they make there needs to be transferable. And yes, certain sorts of exceptions to things might be made based on the original offense and where they are in their progress, so a murderer won't necessarily start with access to the same features but the goal is still to get them there.
The biggest thing people need to realize: It's better to let a few evil people go than allow harsh treatment of people that want to get back on track. Anytime you talk about burying someone with an egregious crime "under the jail" what you are really doing is making sure lesser offenders are allowed to be treated like animals.
What I think is mostly likely for police is bifurcation. You split the existing police into two groups one of which is unarmed and does the bulk of work where ongoing violence isn't happening. These could then report to a different command structure and serve as a sort of check on the armed counterparts. You'd expect much more money would go into the unarmed segment because that's the bulk of police work and they'd be trained more in mediation. They could make arrests too, they just would have no power to hold you, you'd have to go voluntarily.
For prisons, it's much harder to deal with the existing system and you'd need to renovate a lot. Basically all non-violent crime should be fines and house arrest. "But muh justice!" people can shut up, they aren't helping. Failure to comply or violent crime would go to a prison-looking thing but should not have sentencing. Inmates should have very specifically outlined goals they need to meet for release and they can complete them at the pace of their own abilities. They should have (managed) access to normal things like computers, books and recreation. They should have nutritious meals that attempt to taste good. They should have privacy by default. They should all be assigned a caseworker they meet with to help guide them through rehabilitation, psychiatric resources should be regularly available. They should be taking classes, perhaps virtually in partnership with other institutions or working for at least minimum wage pay. Prisons should look more like miniature communities because ultimately that's what you want to socialize them back to and progress they make there needs to be transferable. And yes, certain sorts of exceptions to things might be made based on the original offense and where they are in their progress, so a murderer won't necessarily start with access to the same features but the goal is still to get them there.
The biggest thing people need to realize: It's better to let a few evil people go than allow harsh treatment of people that want to get back on track. Anytime you talk about burying someone with an egregious crime "under the jail" what you are really doing is making sure lesser offenders are allowed to be treated like animals.
I seriously think abolition is nonsens utopian dream. I do believe in community response but I don't think world at large has real communities. I mean, small towns, yes, you can have self sustaining community without police force. Not in large towns/cities.
I simply believe it's population problem. Once you start having X-amount of people you can't know them well enough to actually bond with them. Then there is the problem of jobs/etc. What ties you to your community? Where one lives is not necessarily their community. Some people are more connected to their own work community then their place of living etc.
edit. Also, community response can be bad as police response. We have seen how religious communities can fail when they serve their own justice.
I simply believe it's population problem. Once you start having X-amount of people you can't know them well enough to actually bond with them. Then there is the problem of jobs/etc. What ties you to your community? Where one lives is not necessarily their community. Some people are more connected to their own work community then their place of living etc.
edit. Also, community response can be bad as police response. We have seen how religious communities can fail when they serve their own justice.
When I read about realistic abolition it kinda just sounds like reform with a stronger word. There are still police officers there's just different police officers. There's still prisons they're just different prisons. So I don't really care which one as long as it actually happens.
The idea that you need to shoot for the more extreme one to end up anywhere meaningful does make sense to me.
The idea that you need to shoot for the more extreme one to end up anywhere meaningful does make sense to me.
It would have to be a combination of both, but staring right off the bat with the complete dismantling of what's set up right now. From there there's an opportunity for reform... just not at all in the same manner as what's in place currently.
I think there's a middle ground. We obviously cannot continue to have the military-lite, all-powerful police force that we see now. At the same time, I firmly believe that we need trained professionals keeping our communities safe. Not just through law enforcement, but through genuinely investing in the community through programming, partnerships and investing of taxpayer resources. It's a monumental amount of work but something has to be done.
As much as I dislike most police, I don't want to live in a world where I can't call someone for help if I or someone I love is truly in danger. I feel like there has to be something.
As much as I dislike most police, I don't want to live in a world where I can't call someone for help if I or someone I love is truly in danger. I feel like there has to be something.
I believe our justice system can be reformed but I'm for abolition of private prisons and militarization of police.
Defund and demilitarize the pigs. Prison reformed to be systems for rehabilitation instead of punishment. Except for any cops with a currently existing bad record, who get imprisoned or get the electric chair, depending on the severity of it. Lock them up and throw away the key for that lot.
Someone said it best though, we need to go hard on change to the point it feels like abolition but eventually lands on extensive reform. We start off softly on reform and little will change. Change will get lost in the bureaucracy of the incompetent and pig sympathizers. See reconstructionism after the Civil War.
Someone said it best though, we need to go hard on change to the point it feels like abolition but eventually lands on extensive reform. We start off softly on reform and little will change. Change will get lost in the bureaucracy of the incompetent and pig sympathizers. See reconstructionism after the Civil War.
Changing to that model would improve society but for the US it would be such a monumental shift of mindset, of prison being about reform rather than punishment, that would take multiple generations to accomplish, if it's even possible. A significant number of people in this country are still for the death penalty. Hell, even on this forum, threads on certain crimes get responses like "lock em up and throw away the key".
Something as minor as cash bail reform in NY state has been received with ENDLESS bitching about how we're just putting "criminals" back on the street. Any minor uptick in crime (in NYC usually driven by police not doing their jobs) is directly blamed on any recent progressive criminal justice reforms.
I hope we can do better but there are a lot of headwinds..
Well abolition is different as it's a permanent thing but yes I don't know what to vote for because I support dismantling the entire thing and starting over.
OP
OP
Sorry to share more, but I saw this Twitter thread and it has a lot of resources (I haven't read all of them yet, but they are very useful for those wondering about the topic):
He tweeted this article that includes here are the 'reforms' that abolitionists want, it might make things more concrete and specific:
truthout.org
He tweeted this article that includes here are the 'reforms' that abolitionists want, it might make things more concrete and specific:
Police “Reforms” You Should Always Oppose
Ultimately, the only way that we will address oppressive policing is to abolish the police.
truthout.org
Abolish. They hold institutional power, influence, and a free hand to run criminal enterprises and hits that the mob could only sniff at, serve and protect private property/white supremacy/domestic abuse/might makes right, accountable only to themselves, have their purported civilian oversight and regular people living in mortal fear, with black and native people the target of their worst abuses...
Excise them like the tumor they are.
Excise them like the tumor they are.
For profit prisons need to be made illegal.
I also think we should look to other countries and bring in people who are familiar with their methods and tactics to examine and make changes to how our police act. Other countries aren't going to deal with as many guns, but they still deal with the same crimes.
I also think we should look to other countries and bring in people who are familiar with their methods and tactics to examine and make changes to how our police act. Other countries aren't going to deal with as many guns, but they still deal with the same crimes.
I don't think that police can or should be abolished, and I think that's a politically losing argument that will result in the opposite of the intention: Entrenched expansion of police power and irresponsibility.
I believe in reform.
On the last one, sometimes people react "WHAT? Pay police more? They're already overpaid, look at state salaries!" And that's not true. Police who make a lot of money tend to do so on lucrative details and working long overtime hours. This is bad. It results in units being stretched thin, overtired, out of the house, and single patrolmen will end up working more hours than they should making them less prepared to respond correctly and with worse training. If police got paid overtime to do training sessions that are responsibly made, it'd be much more effective than being paid overtime for working an 80 hour week with 35 of those hours being detail. A cop who hasn't been home and hasn't gotten enough sleep and has been behind the wheel bored for 14 hours, who suddenly has to respond to an emergency, is going to be more impulsive and less prepared. Combined with the first one, where you hire locally (instead of, say, staffing a police dept with 80% of workers living a half hour away in the suburbs), you'll get more qualified local applicants who can do better community police work, who are more engaged with local leaders, who are more open to community training, see police work as not being a "warzone mentality," which cuts down on the privatization and weaponization of police. Community hiring and increased pay goes along way.
This isn't just police, though, obviously criminal justice system needs a top-to-bottom overhaul along with it. Public schools need more programs and more support. But if we're talking strictly about police reform, we can start here.
I believe in reform.
- Community hiring -- local hiring for local policing. Diversity in hiring, not just in race, ethnicity, gender, but also age and talent. The idea of a teacher retiring from teaching at age 45 to be a police officer should not be anathema to a police force, it shouldn't be laughed out as impossible, it should be a realistic career opportunity... Not just military vets or testosterone-packed 23 year olds with a power complex. "Well how will they get a 100% on a field-training bootcamp exam??" Why the fuck should that matter? Why do we prioritize the mini-olympics over decision making, patience, and the ability to connect with someone?
- Community oversight -- A larger seat at the table for oversight and public transparency. If the public doesn't know about bad cops they can't fire bad cops. Shine a flood light, body cams, car cams. Footage should be reasonably public and reviewed regularly.
- Community training. Going to a national or super-regional training meeting for police makes no sense. Especially when those are so often advised by military veterans in warzones. A cop's experience during the crime crisis in 1980s New York City is not relevant to a cop's experience in Raleigh North Carolina, and when the training tells them that their jobs are warzones that they have to go to battle in, they have a tendancy to turn their job into a warzone.
- De-militarization of police
- De-privatization of police
- De-weaponization of police
- Increased police salaries through contracts
On the last one, sometimes people react "WHAT? Pay police more? They're already overpaid, look at state salaries!" And that's not true. Police who make a lot of money tend to do so on lucrative details and working long overtime hours. This is bad. It results in units being stretched thin, overtired, out of the house, and single patrolmen will end up working more hours than they should making them less prepared to respond correctly and with worse training. If police got paid overtime to do training sessions that are responsibly made, it'd be much more effective than being paid overtime for working an 80 hour week with 35 of those hours being detail. A cop who hasn't been home and hasn't gotten enough sleep and has been behind the wheel bored for 14 hours, who suddenly has to respond to an emergency, is going to be more impulsive and less prepared. Combined with the first one, where you hire locally (instead of, say, staffing a police dept with 80% of workers living a half hour away in the suburbs), you'll get more qualified local applicants who can do better community police work, who are more engaged with local leaders, who are more open to community training, see police work as not being a "warzone mentality," which cuts down on the privatization and weaponization of police. Community hiring and increased pay goes along way.
This isn't just police, though, obviously criminal justice system needs a top-to-bottom overhaul along with it. Public schools need more programs and more support. But if we're talking strictly about police reform, we can start here.
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My position as an abolitionist is simply recognizing that the current paradigm between the role of the police and the communities they "serve" is toxic. With a lack of proper investment in communities, poor education, gentrified neighborhoods, no healthcare, homelessness, poor wages, income inequality and all sorts of societal ills, the police are there to contain the consequences of these. In the face of severe austerity the Police tame the excesses of Capital. Cops are here to militantly and violently solve issues of poverty and homelessness. They make sure marginalized populations aren't causing issues for everyone else still useful to Capital and Capital itself.
I consider myself an abolitionist because acknowledging that paradigm means that no technocratic Rube Goldberg contraption we're calling a reform is going to put an end to this. Doesn't matter if we make a cop have to graduate college with 3.0 GPA, read Tanahesi Coates, and be able to rub their stomachs and pat their heads at the same time before they can get a gun and badge. The end result is always going to be them putting a baton into the ribs of a Black teenager from a segregated community who strayed too far from the open air prison.
We're have break that paradigm. That begins with defunding demilitarizing and disinvestment from the police along with massive redistribution into social goods targeted to these communities the police are there to occupy.
For the US? Reform. For Canada? Reform.
Not sure how you abolish police / prisons. Are you just going to let everyone walk free? I know you said about 10% of the population has domestic abuse .... but wouldn't that number be higher if people know there are no reprecussions on anything?!?!
Not sure how you abolish police / prisons. Are you just going to let everyone walk free? I know you said about 10% of the population has domestic abuse .... but wouldn't that number be higher if people know there are no reprecussions on anything?!?!
Abolition, ultimately. Until then? Top to bottom reform.
At the bare minimum:
1. Broken Window policing is abolished
2. End cash bail and for profit prisons
3. Demilitarize police
4. An independent body is made to investigate all police wrong-doing.
5. Police must living in the community they police
6. De-escalation training
7. Banning of choke holds
8. Social Workers assigned to answer 911 for mental health issues and not just police
9. End Civil Forfeiture
10. Change the criminal justice system into one of rehabilation instead of retribution
There's a ton more but that's off the top of my head.
At the bare minimum:
1. Broken Window policing is abolished
2. End cash bail and for profit prisons
3. Demilitarize police
4. An independent body is made to investigate all police wrong-doing.
5. Police must living in the community they police
6. De-escalation training
7. Banning of choke holds
8. Social Workers assigned to answer 911 for mental health issues and not just police
9. End Civil Forfeiture
10. Change the criminal justice system into one of rehabilation instead of retribution
There's a ton more but that's off the top of my head.
You can't reform our criminal justice system because it is like a thousand different jurisdictions in different places all across the nation it would be impossible you need to reboot the whole system. why reform system when you have to reform every single part of it that's stupid , you start over from the beginning and you make a better system
I'm abolition of the current system and complete top down replacement. There's too much rot in what we have currently, between nearly 18,000 State and local agencies that lack oversight, the current generation having been trained by previous generations that held non-White lives as lesser (not to touch on family legacies), rampent corruption that has been there for decades by this point (look up what happened to Frank Serpico in the 70's, and the stories of other cops who have stepped against the force), and "Gypsy Cops" who switch departments whenever things start to get hot for them, there's so much wrong with the current system that "reform" is simply not going to cut it.
We need cops and we need prisons.
But we need to stop thinking of police as an occupying military force. The vast vast majority of people don't break laws because of social norms and because they are good people. The vast majority of people who commit non-violent crimes are doing it because of external pressures (usually financial) that we can help tackle as a society to reduce crime by making housing, food, medicine and education rights.
We need a police force for violent crimes like murder, rape, physical abuse, etc.
But we need to think of police as defenders of the citizenry. You aren't there to "get" the bad guy, you are there to protect the victim.
We stopped thinking of cops as a society (as have cops themselves) as defenders of the peace and started treating them as proactive vigilantes designed to prevent future crimes by use of mass incarceration and excessive force for minor offenses. Cops also target communities where there is perceived to be more crime, and the reason for that is racism and classism. Cops absolutely as are currently operating are designed to keep "scary" minority populations in check and protect whites. The prison system honestly should mostly be done away with. Only violent offenders should really be in jail. Mass incarceration is a fucking joke and its design is to keep minority kids in jail and not on the streets.
But we need to stop thinking of police as an occupying military force. The vast vast majority of people don't break laws because of social norms and because they are good people. The vast majority of people who commit non-violent crimes are doing it because of external pressures (usually financial) that we can help tackle as a society to reduce crime by making housing, food, medicine and education rights.
We need a police force for violent crimes like murder, rape, physical abuse, etc.
But we need to think of police as defenders of the citizenry. You aren't there to "get" the bad guy, you are there to protect the victim.
We stopped thinking of cops as a society (as have cops themselves) as defenders of the peace and started treating them as proactive vigilantes designed to prevent future crimes by use of mass incarceration and excessive force for minor offenses. Cops also target communities where there is perceived to be more crime, and the reason for that is racism and classism. Cops absolutely as are currently operating are designed to keep "scary" minority populations in check and protect whites. The prison system honestly should mostly be done away with. Only violent offenders should really be in jail. Mass incarceration is a fucking joke and its design is to keep minority kids in jail and not on the streets.
I'm all for overthrowing the current economic system as it is intimately related to the issue of police violence.
If you got a car that has has check engine lights on with a broken tail pipe broken head gasket , bad brakes, a faulty water pump, serpentine belt on fire, needs new tires, door is held together by duct tape, and air conditioner only blows hot air you don't go while I'm going to fix this car
You buy a new car
We cannot reform policing we have to start over
You buy a new car
We cannot reform policing we have to start over
The current protests are not going to lead to that. It's not the motivator for the vast majority of people out protesting.
there was an amazing comic on IG about this very topic, unfortunately can't find it. People seem to think it's snapping your fingers Thanos style and the prisons disappear. It's not that.
Sure. I'll be satisfied if these protest leads to defunding of the police and redistribution those funds where to the communities the police occupy like open air prisons. Also demilitarization.
It's all semantics - reform is what we all want and need, but the only way to get it meaningfully done is going to mean abolishing most of it in the first place.
Only true anarchists want there to be no one keeping law in general, the rest of us want them to be accountable and honest, which requires tearing it down and starting over.
Only true anarchists want there to be no one keeping law in general, the rest of us want them to be accountable and honest, which requires tearing it down and starting over.
Abolish police unions. It doesn't matter who you make the chief when the rank and file are allowed to govern themselves via the unions. It's the only civil job that gives members the ability to hold the public's life in their hands to directly thus should be treated differently from other professional unions.
All I'm saying is that some kind of reform (to include demilitarization) is the only end-goal achievable by these protests. Wholesale abolition of police and prisons are not achievable demands so long as we're operating in the current economic framework, and that falls well-outside the scope of the current protests--which as I said, are laser-focused on racial injustice and police brutality.
A lot of the arguments I've personally seen for abolition are either effectively reform or idealistic to the point of being fantastical.
I don't think you can build a lasting society without some form of prison or law enforcement system, but I do think we can do things significantly more humanly and with a lot less bigotry.
Prisons can be a place of reform and training, we can help drug addicts recover, we can bring in police officers from the community and punish those who commit abuse, etc. We know these things work and there are countries that do them, I don't understand how America is somehow different enough to where we can't do the same and get similar results.
I don't think you can build a lasting society without some form of prison or law enforcement system, but I do think we can do things significantly more humanly and with a lot less bigotry.
Prisons can be a place of reform and training, we can help drug addicts recover, we can bring in police officers from the community and punish those who commit abuse, etc. We know these things work and there are countries that do them, I don't understand how America is somehow different enough to where we can't do the same and get similar results.
Yeah I see what you mean but I will say that abolitionist activists are more savvy than you're giving them credit for. They aren't just shouting "abolish" on twitter they are out here in the streets with clearly stated tangible and achievable goals like defund. Abolitionist just recognize that the nature of Police must fundamentally change and that won't be done with technocratic reforms on top of a rotting toxic system
reform, i don't know what term of 'abolition' you mean but surely youre not talking about getting rid of the entire system
I will never understand those who genuinely believe a society can function without law enforcement and a criminal justice system. We need serious reform and to purge officers who do not protect and serve, but to abolish an arm of justice completely makes no sense to me.
And what do you all mean "build up" other than an idealist platitude that doesn't constructively contribute to a solution? Hashtags aren't policy.
And what do you all mean "build up" other than an idealist platitude that doesn't constructively contribute to a solution? Hashtags aren't policy.
How does community policing work in a world where crimes can easily be committed between different communities? What if the victim is an outcast in the community? What if the person commits a crime within their community but immediately leaves? It's a system that literally only works in a closed community where the community is also genuinely devoted to the cause.
I'd like abolition, but I don't have enough trust in humans to think it would work. We probably would trade a shitty oppressive centralized police with numerous arbitrary structures...
I think a police less society can only work if it's a small group. It can't if we're talking of a scale of millions people.
I think a police less society can only work if it's a small group. It can't if we're talking of a scale of millions people.
No, it is most definitely not. Same as people in other threads thinking the complete erasure of credit history is a possible or realistic. Candy Land dreams. It would be nice though if that is how reality worked.
So I'm for aggressive reform.
I think we should get rid of the police and replace them with civilian volunteers.
These volunteers would require special training, and the time doing work and investigating and stuff would prevent them from doing other jobs, so we'd need to pay them and make it their main job.
We'll also want to give them uniforms so that we can identify them from non-volunteers.
The only thing I'm hung up on is what to call them. Any ideas?
These volunteers would require special training, and the time doing work and investigating and stuff would prevent them from doing other jobs, so we'd need to pay them and make it their main job.
We'll also want to give them uniforms so that we can identify them from non-volunteers.
The only thing I'm hung up on is what to call them. Any ideas?
