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Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
It's hard to have a proper discussion when the title and OP have framed it as Most Definitely Transphobic.

That may be the case.

My first post in this thread was that while it may not have been intended as transphobic (or anti LGBT in general really) that the artist should have had the foresight to craft the imagery in a way that didn't allow a bunch of coincidences to coalesce into something that could be misconstrued as such. It is unreasonable for someone to expect people to look into the history of an artist in order to understand a stand alone piece. I am criticizing this comic because it was poorly made if a pro-LGBT figure could accidentally make something that at first glance looked anti-LGBT.

I was accused of being upset and not understanding context.

So perhaps proper discussion was futile from the get go.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
At this point I'd really like a list of bullet points about what's actually transphobic about the comic.

The stereotype of an overtly masculine man wearing a dress is often used as a way to insult and deny trans identites, in particular trans women. By using this right off the bat, it sends up a red flag to me because I and other trans people have had to deal with transphobic people saying those sentiments to our face.

Then the comic starts to dive into the concept if truth and how these characters are running from it and want to spread lies. Again, sentiments that transphobic people have used against us directly.

It's very like that this comic wasn't intended this way, but there's a reason that trans people are upset when they first see this and the altright are celebrating it in the comments.

You're right in a sense that this is "on us" for seeing it this way, but it's on us because we have experience with transphobia and bigoted people in our day to day lives constantly.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
You're right in a sense that this is "on us" for seeing it this way, but it's on us because we have experience with transphobia and bigoted people in our day to day lives constantly.

To add to this, it's also "on us" because of the sloppy job the artist did with the imagery used. He could have used a bunch of, what's the word? Reporters as the character running from the truth and then reporting on it.

If I'm trying to convey a serious, thought provoking message and accidentally end up using gender-fluid characters running from the literal embodiment of "The Truth" then that's my bad not yours.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
The stereotype of an overtly masculine man wearing a dress is often used as a way to insult and deny trans identites, in particular trans women. By using this right off the bat, it sends up a red flag to me because I and other trans people have had to deal with transphobic people saying those sentiments to our face.

Then the comic starts to dive into the concept if truth and how these characters are running from it and want to spread lies. Again, sentiments that transphobic people have used against us directly.

It's very like that this comic wasn't intended this way, but there's a reason that trans people are upset when they first see this and the altright are celebrating it in the comments.

You're right in a sense that this is "on us" for seeing it this way, but it's on us because we have experience with transphobia and bigoted people in our day to day lives constantly.

See, I get all these, that was my first reaction to the comic as well. It really read like what many people are saying here, and that's completely fine. What I don't like about this thread is that, once context and perspective had been provided, people still stuck to their initial interpretation, instead of thinking about it some more. That really irks me.

Like, if I know that the other comics this guy made are all LGBTQ supportive, why would my first thought still be "wow, he's mocking trans women". Is that understandable?


If I'm trying to convey a serious, thought provoking message and accidentally end up using gender-fluid characters running from the literal embodiment of "The Truth" then that's my bad not yours.

The Genderfluid Character is the main character of the Petty Bootleg Strip. They're in every single Petty Bootleg strip. A strip that's being published by Adult Swim. This one wasn't the first in the series, and I feel the biggest mistake of AS and their choice to publish it this way on twitter, is divorcing it from the context of that comic strip. Isolated from everything, it is indeed a weird strip with many red flags and questionable imagery. In context, though, it's quite a bit different IMO.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
We're debating exactly how much substance it lacks.

What do the rainbow and unicorn symbolize, do you think? I interpreted them as being about media producing colorful upbeat-seeming messages that either obscure or get away from the truth as much as possible. Sure, stuff like the "warm your heart by the fire of the soul of this kid trying to raise money by selling lemonade so he can fund his dad's life-saving cacner treatment" stories qualify but it also makes me think about vague-but-visually-appealing comics, especially ones that are mostly vapid and devoid of content.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,114
See, I get all these, that was my first reaction to the comic as well. It really read like what many people are saying here, and that's completely fine. What I don't like about this thread is that, once context and perspective had been provided, people still stuck to their initial interpretation, instead of thinking about it some more. That really irks me.

Like, if I know that the other comics this guy made are all LGBTQ supportive, why would my first thought still be "wow, he's mocking trans women". Is that understandable?
Because execution of an idea is just as important as the idea itself. The artist did a bad job at what they set out to do, assuming they didn't want to make a comic easily interpreted as transphobic.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
See, I get all these, that was my first reaction to the comic as well. It really read like what many people are saying here, and that's completely fine. What I don't like about this thread is that, once context and perspective had been provided, people still stuck to their initial interpretation, instead of thinking about it some more. That really irks me.

Like, if I know that the other comics this guy made are all LGBTQ supportive, why would my first thought still be "wow, he's mocking trans women". Is that understandable?

I'm not sticking to my initial impression at all here, and that Pinocchio comic that the artist drew hit on these issues in a nice way. But, comics aren't scenes from movies or a page from a book where there is a larger context that surrounds the message that can clarify or provide some more information on what the director or artist was trying to get at. A comic needs to be able to stand on it's own, and I don't think it's unfair of people to question what message this comic is sending on it's own.
 
Dec 31, 2017
7,130
Out of context from his other work it definitely seems anti-trans.

In context it seems a bit better.

However it's a lazy comic as if his point was to criticize "hyper-woke" media then he should have used a variety of characters, and not exclusively ones that "look" trans.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Because execution of an idea is just as important as the idea itself. The artist did a bad job at what they set out to do, assuming they didn't want to make a comic easily interpreted as transphobic.

If you ignore that the character is part of their own series, that this comic is also part of, yes. But if you know about that, why ignore it? I don't think the artist is at fault for that context being lost because AS published this comic in the most stupid fashion. They cut out the title panel and published the panels as singular pictures, I can't personally blame the artist for that.


I'm not sticking to my initial impression at all here, and that Pinocchio comic that the artist drew hit on these issues in a nice way. But, comics aren't scenes from movies or a page from a book where there is a larger context that surrounds the message that can clarify or provide some more information on what the director or artist was trying to get at. A comic needs to be able to stand on it's own, and I don't think it's unfair of people to question what message this comic is sending on it's own.

I still think most of the blame for that is on Adult Swim, though. for reasons outlined above. I'd think if it were published with the context that it's part of the series it wouldn't have been quite as confusing.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,400
We're debating exactly how much substance it lacks.
That sounds like the debate you want to have.

To be clear I'm not making a statement on the art, I'm still trying to figure out wtf it's about. I'm just saying that the controversy the art is creating in this very thread is indicative of the fact that it's not speaking from a "status quo" leaning viewpoint since such statements would be uninteresting at best.
 

UltraMav

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,759
Welp, I feel like a right dope for jumping the gun and throwing my two cents in without knowing the context of the strip.

You finally got me, Era.
 
Oct 25, 2017
99
NY
Because execution of an idea is just as important as the idea itself. The artist did a bad job at what they set out to do, assuming they didn't want to make a comic easily interpreted as transphobic.

If the artist set out to make a comment about journalism should they first check the bible of subliminal messaging to ensure the right group took offense? They are drawn inside caves, after all. Perhaps the artist is targeting the middle east?

How you've not come to realize that anything can be misinterpreted at will is anyone's guess.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he was poking fun at himself with that strip. The "lies" the journalists are sticking to in the cave instead of the "truth" seem to be comfy and comforting, while the "truth" is looming and menacing. The character of Petty Bootleg also seems to be an author self insert from what I can tell.

It is, admittedly, probably the one comic of his that's hardest to figure out.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,114
That sounds like the debate you want to have.

To be clear I'm not making a statement on the art, I'm still trying to figure out wtf it's about. I'm just saying that the controversy the art is creating in this very thread is indicative of the fact that it's not speaking from a "status quo" leaning viewpoint since such statements would be uninteresting at best.
I'm mostly being facetious, but honestly I don't find much value in any interpretation of this comic that's been discussed.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,114
If the artist set out to make a comment about journalism should they first check the bible of subliminal messaging to ensure the right group took offense? They are drawn inside caves, after all. Perhaps the artist is targeting the middle east?

How you've not come to realize that anything can be misinterpreted at will is anyone's guess.
I enjoy how willfully ignorant you're being, I'll have you know.
 

Barrel Cannon

It's Pronounced "Aerith"
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,358
All garbage comics but pretty spot on with that FRIENDS comic in terms of how it feels seeing that show. That show makes it seem like black people barely exist in New York and coming off the Central Park five just a few years earlier it seems like the garbage ideology that repressed black people from being included in more roles on shows like Friends. Like sure the group of friends is all white..... but why is it that everywhere they go seems to all white as well and that we see such few black people. Also gotta still say that those transgender jokes on Friends still got no place
 
Oct 25, 2017
99
NY
User warned: antagonizing other members
I enjoy how willfully ignorant you're being, I'll have you know.

Odd because I could say the same for you.

Personally I'm offended.

And if the comic wasn't offensive then I'm offended at other things they made.

And if those aren't offensive then I didn't like their art anyway.

Either way, I'll learn nothing from this misfire of opinions because I found a way to make the artist deserve it.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
Not really, no, because the artist's work isn't prominent enough in Adult Swim's content stream to reasonably assume they're messaging is going to reach a reader base primarily informed enough with proper context. It might explain the initial tweet, but the relative not-handling-it that has followed--the Adult Swim twitter account at this point has made no effort to clarify or contextualize the comic, and that's a failure on Adult Swim's part.

This is a key point to all of this. Yes, you can google out the artist's entire history. The artist's history isn't in the tweet. That's not the context the tweet is in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
99
NY
Weird how art intended to have meaning has meaning (intended or otherwise).

How could that possibly happen?

Weird how this arts meaning, however nebulous it may be, can't just 'be.' No, in today's world, art that is designed as a mirror pointed against the onlooker isn't the onlookers fault, it's the artist for showing them their own flaws.

The best part is that once this absurd machine is running it's hard to stop. Look how many people haven't read the thread but jumped right to commenting.
 

Bleu

Banned
Sep 21, 2018
1,599
The silly behaviour of op and others refusing to look at context, hell-bent on their initial outraged takes is amusingly what a significant part of the artist's work is about. it's incredible.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,114
The silly behaviour of op and others refusing to look at context, hell-bent on their initial outraged takes is amusingly what a significant part of the artist's work is about. it's incredible.
Context isn't fully absolving. People have flaws and shortcomings, and an ally in most cases can disregard humanity in others. I'm willing to chalk this up to a poorly thoughtout comic, but this weird rhetoric that the artist couldn't possibly be transphobic because he's made positive comics in the past is equally short-sighted.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Context isn't fully absolving. People have flaws and shortcomings, and an ally in most cases can disregard humanity in others. I'm willing to chalk this up to a poorly thoughtout comic, but this weird rhetoric that the artist couldn't possibly be transphobic because he's made positive comics in the past is equally short-sighted.
Why would I question if he's possibly transphobic when we now know this has nothing to do with trans people? Like, am I supposed to stay undecided if he's a bigot or not based on a misinterpretation? Even when he has shown to be progressive with LGBT issues and especially with gender?
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,114
Why would I question if he's possibly transphobic when we now know this has nothing to do with trans people? Like, am I supposed to stay undecided if he's a bigot or not based on a misinterpretation? Even when he has shown to be progressive with LGBT issues and especially with gender?
That was more a general statement about that line of argument than this case specifically. Allies have blind spots, and other people aren't being allies in good faith (TERFS for a concrete example here). It seems that this artist has good intentions across the board, but the argument I critiqued above is not a very good one on its own.
 

Fedeuy

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
903
Out of context this looks extremely transphobic, and trans people have more than enough reasons to be pissed off (and you absolutely cannot blame them for be on the defense), thats a fact, aint no discussion about it, however, i think OP knew the context and went at it anyway, and thats way the title hasnt changed.
Also, saying that the Alt right is here celebrating is hyperbole as it finest, but Era gonna be Era, the magical place where the wokest and purest people reside.
 

Truly Gargantuan

Still doesn't have a tag :'(
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,034
Even knowing the comic in question isn't transphobic...I still can suss out wtf it's trying to say. The burly man in a dress is such a common caricature against transwomen that even knowing it's not meant to be a transphobic comic I can't help but see that meaning. I think this is just a really grievous swing and a miss by the artist.

Also, tangentially, this is another example of why Twitter is trash for any sort of conversation beyond the most basic topics.
 

Lundren

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,745
That was more a general statement about that line of argument than this case specifically. Allies have blind spots, and other people aren't being allies in good faith (TERFS for a concrete example here). It seems that this artist has good intentions across the board, but the argument I critiqued above is not a very good one on its own.

Which is an important bit of context that people like to ignore. The context of trans people being attacked by literally everyone keeps getting brushed aside.

Note, I'm adding on to this statement, not claiming the author is or isn't transphobic.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,237
People complaining about context: the context of this comic strip is that it was tweeted in isolation. Going back and reading the artist's previous work is helpful since the comic is not especially good or illuminating, but reading it by itself is also perfectly "in context."

A bad job with what exactly? Who is to say? You? A community that decided this means that? How about taking any responsibility at all for applying your own bias to media. That would be incredible actually.

Yes, we are all discussing our opinions about the work in this thread. Reading characters with a mix of masculine and feminine traits fleeing from "THE TRUTH" as transphobic is entirely reasonable and doesn't disappear because the comic awkwardly pivots to banal critique of journalism in the last panel.

Artwork that resonates with its audience in an unintended way is nothing new, and people aren't wrong to form their own readings. If the predominant reading completely overshadows the artist's intended message, that's not necessarily the audience's fault. There is such thing as bad art.

But that's, like, just my opinion, man.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,716
The artist's body of work is starkly simplistic in its ideas, which is interesting given the consistent theme of mocking simplicity. Still, while not generally liking them, I can appreciate some of them, including some of the ones with epistemological themes. I like the ones showing the immutable nature of reality in contrast to the transiency of subjective truth. None of this is a new idea or surprising, of course, but that's not necessary for art. My favourite is the meat grinder one.

As to the comic in question, the most sympathetic reading is that it's a bad comic, and that's after seeking out the artist's other work and giving the benefit of the doubt as to intention. Execution alone is extremely problematic. None of us can be 100% sure it is not transphobic even after all of this. We all have enough experience with TERFs, right? Being progressive in some ways doesn't mean you have a complete set of progressive ideals. We're left with the idea that it's best to be circumspect given the artist's pro-gay, anti-conformist themes in other works; none of us want it to be bigoted despite how it comes across. Every artist is allowed their duds and this is a dud. That's where I am.

A question for the disdainful people offended by anyone taking issue with it: would you share it to a large group of people without any comment or context, or follow up commentary? Would you simply present the comic? It is a standalone piece of art; a four-panel comic. Do you believe it speaks for itself and would you stake your reputation on it?

If not, then you do understand why people take issue with it.
 
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Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Artwork that resonates with its audience in an unintended way is nothing new, and people aren't wrong to form their own readings. If the predominant reading completely overshadows the artist's intended message, that's not necessarily the audience's fault. There is such thing as bad art.

But that's, like, just my opinion, man.

you're arrested for the crime of murdering an author now
 

Snowy

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,399
Because execution of an idea is just as important as the idea itself. The artist did a bad job at what they set out to do, assuming they didn't want to make a comic easily interpreted as transphobic.

Arguably, satire in the modern day, where it has thoroughly been devalued thanks to CONSTANT satire in every sector of the media, is only provocative and effective if it rides the line where it could be misinterpreted.

Also, to some extent, the conservative echo chamber has hit some kind of Poe's Law outer boundary where mockery of it and unironic recitation of it are basically indistinguishable.
 
Oct 30, 2017
838
South Coast, UK
This thread is a rollercoaster, really changes course by the second page. Not exactly a fan of the comic, but everyone saying that Adult Swim hasn't produced anything of value in a while clearly haven't seen Joe Pera Talks With You. It's my favourite thing they have ever produced, and it's also completely unlike everything else that they did before it.
 

Swiggins

was promised a tag
Member
Apr 10, 2018
11,519
Somebody should shoot the author a link to this thread, he'll probably get a kick out of people discussing his art so in depth.
 

smisk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,019
Love how easily social media allows people to take things out of context and immediately make the worst assumptions. Regardless, this is possibly the most this artist's work has ever been discussed so that's something.
I can see how you think that strip is transphobic, but it's a bit of a stretch IMO (I doubt I would have come to that conclusion on my own) and after seeing his other work it seems even less likely.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Context isn't fully absolving. People have flaws and shortcomings, and an ally in most cases can disregard humanity in others. I'm willing to chalk this up to a poorly thoughtout comic, but this weird rhetoric that the artist couldn't possibly be transphobic because he's made positive comics in the past is equally short-sighted.
It's the all-too-common "but I didn't MEAN to be racist/transphobic/sexist" used to absolve someone of accountability.

It's also just blatant cis-splaining in this context.
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,595
I bet the author at the very least does want people interpret this as transphobic.. whether its okay or not as long the actual meaning is not that its up for debate tbh
 

Bleu

Banned
Sep 21, 2018
1,599
Context isn't fully absolving. People have flaws and shortcomings, and an ally in most cases can disregard humanity in others. I'm willing to chalk this up to a poorly thoughtout comic, but this weird rhetoric that the artist couldn't possibly be transphobic because he's made positive comics in the past is equally short-sighted.
if you did seek context, the idea of the author being transphobic would sound silly to you too.
Maybe it would be wiser to look for context before spouting an outraged comment, but we can forgive that because the drawing out of context can indeed be seen that way, and there are enough people attacking lgbt people all the time to think it's just one more asshole..
However, to keep banging the outraged drum after many have pointed how silly it is in context is ridiculous.

Thread title and op should be updated to reflect the proper context that is severely lacking in the tweet.

Would you simply present the comic? It is a standalone piece of art; a four-panel comic. Do you believe it speaks for itself and would you stake your reputation on it?
Certainly not without context about the artist, otherwise you get this thread or the twitter one.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,114
if you did seek context, the idea of the author being transphobic would sound silly to you too.
Maybe it would be wiser to look for context before spouting an outraged comment, but we can forgive that because the drawing out of context can indeed be seen that way, and there are enough people attacking lgbt people all the time to think it's just one more asshole..
However, to keep banging the outraged drum after many have pointed how silly it is in context is ridiculous.

Thread title and op should be updated to reflect the proper context that is severely lacking in the tweet.


Certainly not without context about the artist, otherwise you get this thread or the twitter one.
You don't seem to get what I and others are saying, which is why we're still talking about this.
 
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