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60% of male managers now say they’re uncomfortable participating in work activities with women (CNBC)
- Thread starter Khamsinvera
- Start date
To be fair, saying that you're uncomfortable with anyone because of their gender, gender identity, race, religion, etc. makes you look like you're 100% part of the problem.
I did not say it was due to gender. In actuality my workspace is always monitored by cameras anyways so I am never alone in an unmonitored space with a coworker or any gender.
This thread however is specifically about men working with women so I responded with that. Any conclusions made outside of my own posts is on the user that expressed them.
I don't see any immediate solution that doesn't put the onus on women to coddle men which would obviously be bullshit. Long-term, this is why positive representation for both women and positive examples for men in media is important, because it's a part of culture and that's part of where people take their cues from. We need to advocate for and celebrate women in politics and business. We need to push back against toxic masculinity and teach young men better. We men to step up and be positive examples and advocates.
Managers are risk-averse. They think that false accusations are a much bigger problem than they are. This is a problem that will pass with time, but we're in a transition phase now- one that should not be necessary, but it's gonna happen. This really does hurt women, and it's going to hurt companies too as they're going to lose out on woman talent to places that don't do this.
I suspect there's an age gap in attitudes as well. Probably a lot higher than 60% with boomer managers, a lot lower with millenial managers.
I saw a little bit of this behavior in the military 10 years ago. Some lower-level officers were uncomfortable with women (my AFSC was 40% women, despite women not even being allowed to do it until the 70s for no legitimate reason)
I suspect there's an age gap in attitudes as well. Probably a lot higher than 60% with boomer managers, a lot lower with millenial managers.
I saw a little bit of this behavior in the military 10 years ago. Some lower-level officers were uncomfortable with women (my AFSC was 40% women, despite women not even being allowed to do it until the 70s for no legitimate reason)
If you're being monitored, obviously there would be less of a reason to be concerned. But why should it come to that? I just don't understand why people would be so paranoid about being alone with a woman. If you don't touch her and talk to her like you would your mom or grandma (i.e. respectful), then there's never a need to worry about anything ever.
Men are scared they'll be accused of doing something they didn't do. Out of all my guy friends, I have one who was falsely accused of doing a few things he didn't do. (Our group of friends knew this because we were with him when the things were supposed to have happened and it did not. That's another story though.)
So now most of my guy friends are scared to interact with women in situations like the ones described in the OP. Just because of something that is extremely rare and almost never happens.
I don't really know what to think about this situation tbh. Me being gay means I'm less likely to live something like that, but I also understand their fear.
Anyways, don't really know what to think about this.
So now most of my guy friends are scared to interact with women in situations like the ones described in the OP. Just because of something that is extremely rare and almost never happens.
I don't really know what to think about this situation tbh. Me being gay means I'm less likely to live something like that, but I also understand their fear.
Anyways, don't really know what to think about this.
If you have a gossip master in your office, I understand the fear in the way of "Even if both people in the interaction are 100% okay with it, we know that one dude in the office who nobody likes and likes to make up random drama for attention." But way I see it, dealing with dudes like that is just part of life and avoiding people to avoid giving them ammo doesn't really work out in the long run.
There's this one fucking dude I work with who seems to be constantly trying to stir up shit. Like two people have perfectly normal interactions, he approaches the girl and is like "Do you feel uncomfortable by that?" and she's like "Uh...no." Then he goes and reports it to HR anyway. Repeat forever, with somewhat alarming frequency every time two people of opposite sexes interact. (A friend in the office likes to joke he's upset that no one ever makes rumors about him because he's gay. We actively tried to see how far we could push things for the dude who is gossip to make up a rumor about us two, but nah. Office gossip sticks to heterosexual rumor mongering only.)
We just sort of deal with him by ignoring him and though the shit he makes up is annoying, it generally just takes a few minutes for both sides to be like "Yea nah dude is making shit up." It's inconvenient but it's the sort of thing you gotta deal with sometimes.
A couple of months ago I was reading this article on men who fear false sexual harassment claims. The article notes that it is a very rare occurrence and someone in this thread posted something similar. However, fear is seldom rational.
Real world practice here. I used to have female coworkers often talk to me about clothes or make up (I'm gay, and yes you do have to deal with the stereotype you enjoy these topics or can somehow offer something of comedic relief or assistance just because your gay).
I've made it a point to not even respond to these forms of conversation. I know many male coworkers in team lead or supervisory roles in my work environment became overly stodgy towards females in the office after one of them was accused of having an innapriopriate conversation about her breastfeeding. While I don't know the details of the convo, I do know she wasn't a fan of him and she did talk about breastfeeding openly with people. It's hard for me to blame them being cautious.
Office environments can easily become like high school and people take a professional relationship into personal realms when in reality your rarely friends. In that mix jokes or things can be said that's pretty harmless but could be lobbied against you. As a whole being more aware and keeping any personal crap out of any office life is better.
For me personally I've heard more then my fill of women at work talking to me about guessing co workers dick size, as much as I've heard men talking about who they find Unattractive. Office environments are hell.
I've made it a point to not even respond to these forms of conversation. I know many male coworkers in team lead or supervisory roles in my work environment became overly stodgy towards females in the office after one of them was accused of having an innapriopriate conversation about her breastfeeding. While I don't know the details of the convo, I do know she wasn't a fan of him and she did talk about breastfeeding openly with people. It's hard for me to blame them being cautious.
Office environments can easily become like high school and people take a professional relationship into personal realms when in reality your rarely friends. In that mix jokes or things can be said that's pretty harmless but could be lobbied against you. As a whole being more aware and keeping any personal crap out of any office life is better.
For me personally I've heard more then my fill of women at work talking to me about guessing co workers dick size, as much as I've heard men talking about who they find Unattractive. Office environments are hell.
I imagine many men are uncomfortable because they don't know how not to be pieces of shit.
I don't get uncomfortable working alone with women because I know I'm not going to say or do anything offensive because I have faith in my own judgement and sensibilities.
I don't get uncomfortable working alone with women because I know I'm not going to say or do anything offensive because I have faith in my own judgement and sensibilities.
You don't have to go that far.
Talk to women coworkers like you talk to your male coworkers but talk to ALL YOUR COWORKERS like they might take offense to the shit you might say because they might and eventually someone will if that's your nature, regardless of their sex.
The 3 major rules for workplace convo:
1) Don't talk about sex or attractiveness RE: anyone
2) Don't talk about religion
3) Don't talk about politics or issues that have been strongly politicised
Do not talk about these things even with your best workplace buddies if you are in earshot of other people. Just avoid these subjects all together to be safe. I have found many creative ways to avoid these conversations when co-workers bring them up.
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Let's be honest, this is probably a big part of why they are managers in the first place
"As for why this is happening, 36% of men say they've avoided mentoring or socializing with a woman because they were nervous about how it would look. "
https://leanin.org/sexual-harassment-backlash-survey-results
Some of the replies in this thread are disgusting. Like, no fucking wonder.
https://leanin.org/sexual-harassment-backlash-survey-results
Some of the replies in this thread are disgusting. Like, no fucking wonder.
I think a lot of it stems from HR. When I was a supervisor they had very clear ground rules about some work related interactions. I absolutely was not allowed to have a 1 on 1 closed door meeting with any of the women I was supervising for instance. Either someone else had to be present, or the door had to be clearly open. I'd imagine the HR in most companies does their best to put men on edge about interactions with the women they manage.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/curiosity/mentor-her-2019/
"Our latest research shows that men—particularly those in senior roles—are pulling back from interacting with women at work, depriving them of the formal and informal mentorship that can aid in networking, securing new opportunities, and promotions. To learn more, we asked over 5,000 people about how their employer addresses sexual harassment and how safe they feel at work. "
"Many men in today's workplace are afraid of being pegged as a harasser—and they are willing to reduce interaction to avoid the label. A full 60% of male managers say they are uncomfortable engaging in common workplace interactions with women, including mentoring, socializing, and having one-on-one meetings—up 14 percentage points from last year.
Senior men are especially uncomfortable socializing with female colleagues. In 2018, only a third of male managers (34%) said they were uncomfortable socializing with a woman outside of work (like in a restaurant). In 2019, that number rises to nearly half of male managers (48%).
More than a third (34%) have actively taken steps to avoid having to interact with a female colleague outside of work, and men are also more unwilling to accept 1:1 meetings outside the office."
"Workers are seeing sexual harassment as being taken more seriously (68%), and few believe the allegations are categorically false (only 8%)—both positive findings!
But the steady stream of stories of harassment over the past few years seems to be confusing workers about the how often harassment really happens. Equal numbers say that the frequency of harassment is increasing (22%) and decreasing (21%), and even more workers don't know which way it's going (24%).
On top of that, women feel less safe at work than they did before. Only 85% said they feel safe on the job, down from 91% last year. Media coverage that is intended to hold aggressors accountable also seems to create a sense of threat, and people don't seem to feel like aggressors are held accountable."
"Notably, workplaces don't seem to discourage women and men from interacting with each other. 82% of workers say their workplace doesn't discourage people of different genders from mentoring, socializing, or traveling together. Even outside the workplace, 80% of workers haven't heard that they should avoid interactions with the opposite gender—meaning most of the hesitance male managers feel is internal.
Sexual harassment is a loaded topic, but limiting interactions between male- and female-identifying employees isn't the answer. Instead, updated policies, trainings, and guidance about appropriate behavior appear to be the most effective strategies for containing bad actors."
"Our latest research shows that men—particularly those in senior roles—are pulling back from interacting with women at work, depriving them of the formal and informal mentorship that can aid in networking, securing new opportunities, and promotions. To learn more, we asked over 5,000 people about how their employer addresses sexual harassment and how safe they feel at work. "
"Many men in today's workplace are afraid of being pegged as a harasser—and they are willing to reduce interaction to avoid the label. A full 60% of male managers say they are uncomfortable engaging in common workplace interactions with women, including mentoring, socializing, and having one-on-one meetings—up 14 percentage points from last year.
Senior men are especially uncomfortable socializing with female colleagues. In 2018, only a third of male managers (34%) said they were uncomfortable socializing with a woman outside of work (like in a restaurant). In 2019, that number rises to nearly half of male managers (48%).
More than a third (34%) have actively taken steps to avoid having to interact with a female colleague outside of work, and men are also more unwilling to accept 1:1 meetings outside the office."
"Workers are seeing sexual harassment as being taken more seriously (68%), and few believe the allegations are categorically false (only 8%)—both positive findings!
But the steady stream of stories of harassment over the past few years seems to be confusing workers about the how often harassment really happens. Equal numbers say that the frequency of harassment is increasing (22%) and decreasing (21%), and even more workers don't know which way it's going (24%).
On top of that, women feel less safe at work than they did before. Only 85% said they feel safe on the job, down from 91% last year. Media coverage that is intended to hold aggressors accountable also seems to create a sense of threat, and people don't seem to feel like aggressors are held accountable."
"Notably, workplaces don't seem to discourage women and men from interacting with each other. 82% of workers say their workplace doesn't discourage people of different genders from mentoring, socializing, or traveling together. Even outside the workplace, 80% of workers haven't heard that they should avoid interactions with the opposite gender—meaning most of the hesitance male managers feel is internal.
Sexual harassment is a loaded topic, but limiting interactions between male- and female-identifying employees isn't the answer. Instead, updated policies, trainings, and guidance about appropriate behavior appear to be the most effective strategies for containing bad actors."
As a manager, what? It's not that hard treating women as people, or I know, hold on to your butts. Treat them exactly as you treat your male employees. It's not that hard.
I think a lot of the discussion in this thread lacks a lot of nuance.
Everyone is jumping about it being sexual harassment and dating. Men not being jerks. That's not what I got out of the survey.
This is about optics. Sadly. It's about male managers being afraid of investing professional time into women due to their own reputation.
That's the issue. And that's wrong.
We still haven't moved on in a society where men and women can have strong working relationships without optics of favoritism or hidden agendas is not in the forefront.
Don't get me wrong. It's cowardly on these managers. But if we want to solve this, it goes beyond men having to "control" themselves. It's about creating more egalitarian environments. We're still not there.
Also, this is why women are shutout the executive pipeline in some companies. Cowardly men won't invest in them professionally for fear of optics.
Yep. People are shit to each other all the time. If a man spends a lot of time mentoring a woman, there's a good chance people will be shitty about it. An employee jealous that a different employee is getting perceived favoritism from a manager decide to start saying things like "Have you noticed Steve spends a lot of time with Sharon?" What should happen is that the people they say that to should respond with "You know it's his job to mentor his employees, right?" But you know what? People won't challenge that, because we're taught over and over again with these corporate-mandated annual sexual harassment training classes and "be an ally" type speak to look for transgressions. To speak out and stand up to harassers.
Nobody says "hey, you should support your male managers when they're having totally normal interactions with women." They say "the signs of harassment aren't always obvious."
It's a failure of the way corporate sexual harassment training works.
Nobody says "hey, you should support your male managers when they're having totally normal interactions with women." They say "the signs of harassment aren't always obvious."
It's a failure of the way corporate sexual harassment training works.
They manage. The survey here is more about mentoring opportunities, which are more important to career advancement in the corporate world.
Guys, stop looking at this from a sexual harassment angle. It's way more complex and also insidious that than. Women are denied career advancement through the invisible layers of "risk management" by male managers.
The survey was done by Lean In, an organization devoted to women's rise in the corporate world through mentorships.
It's been a while since I worked in an office environment but this sounds very thought-policey compared to how I remember it. I used to work in a small office (of a larger company), all women except for me and pretty much all day was taken up gossiping about who we fancied/didn't fancy, which of the partners' PAs and secretaries we hated/could curry favour with, who was knobbing who at the Xmas party etc, etc. That was just normal everyday gossipy work banter.
Yep.
And in many corporate cultures is not written down but assumed.
Again, this is a very deep problem that goes beyond men behaving badly to solve.
HR department think they are protecting women, but they are hurting their career advancement.
Basically sums up my office over the last 15 years. Except my office has around 150 people at our location.
User Banned (Permanent): Misogyny; previous severe infractions
Im uncomfortable socialising with the women in my team.
But only because they are the fucking worst.
The men in my team are far more relaxed and dont bitch about the other people in the office like the women do. (specifically women bitching about other women about clothes, hair, shoes etc)
But only because they are the fucking worst.
The men in my team are far more relaxed and dont bitch about the other people in the office like the women do. (specifically women bitching about other women about clothes, hair, shoes etc)
Damn I just got linked back to this thread, shout out to excelsiorlef fighting the good fight, you have the patience of a fortress! Fucking sick of being asked to sympathise with men accusing us of lying and scrounging and putting their privileges at risk when we're literally discriminated against constantly and integrally. To the point where the protection of our rights as autonomous humans is secondary to the fears and concerns that we could *potentially* abuse our magic powers of sometimes being listened to maybe.
Afraid of women? Good mate. Good. If that's the closest you'll come to respect, so be it.
Afraid of women? Good mate. Good. If that's the closest you'll come to respect, so be it.
You've had "intimate relationships" with people who work under you and you were never worried about your behavior getting you into trouble? Am I mistaking what you mean by "intimate" here?
