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‘Boycott French products’ launched over Macron’s Islam comments
- Thread starter SilentPanda
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I think at the end of the day you have to stop and wonder if this is worth the hundreds of victims France is going to get from more terrorists attacks.
Like the bataclan wasn't enough.
Like the bataclan wasn't enough.
You called the teacher a bigot.
The solution to terrorism isn't agreeing with the terrorists.
Exactly!
There is a disproportionate amount of poverty, crime and prison incarceration among the Muslim population in France.
There are many examples of them being treated as a second class citizenry.
There is a crisis and it is France and it's treatment of its minorities. No shock that most of the terrorist acts have been domestic, people that have been made to feel ostracised within French society reacting against it. A lot of these people are radicalised in the prisons and come from disadvantaged backgrounds.
This is a systemic issue within France and how it treats its Muslim minority.
isnt this the same guy?
Iran's top diplomat says his country executes gay people because of 'moral principles'
Iran, which is among six countries that imposes the death penalty for homosexuality, reportedly publicly hanged a gay man in late January.
www.google.ca
giving us a lecture on extremism? U dont need to behead a guy on the street to be an extremist
User banned (3 months): Explicitly and broadly justifying religiously motivated violence
France and Britain are highly responsible for the rise of religious extremism and radical fundamentalism in West Asia and North Africa. Their colonial legacy has left an entire region highly politically unstable and thousands of people radicalized by those circumstances, and that's to say nothing of their present day profiting from the military industrial complex and their participation in America's forever wars. Any violence that results from that can simply be described as the chickens coming home to roost.
As always, fuck France.
As always, fuck France.
I think the key distinction is that a lot of people don't see showing drawings of Muhammad as bigotry.
Macron's statements are needlessly generalized, so I get the problem. There's already an huge islamophobiabproblem in France and their leader is clumping in the entire religion in crisis, then you are clumping in the extremists with non extremists, which will only exacerbate the problem. It will lead to nothing constructive wrt the discussions that need to happen in Islam as a whole about integration with "European" society. But if you're qualifying the boycott via justification of that murder, then you're not coming from a place of good faith, and sound pretty extreme yourself (like the minister from Jordan.
The murder is working as intended by the extremist though, continuous rifts are being formed between Muslims and non Muslims because of it. Mission accomplished.
The murder is working as intended by the extremist though, continuous rifts are being formed between Muslims and non Muslims because of it. Mission accomplished.
Of course. If the line is "don't draw cartoons to piss off lunatics at your own risk" or "provoke them so that literally every single french citizen becomes a target" I'll pick easily.
I live on the street where the Paris attacks happened. So excuse me to not give a flying fuck about not being able to draw cartoons if that can keep us safer.
I guess it's easy to be all about muh values when you're far from danger.
Cool.
And how many innocents are going to die ?
They're brain washed. You're bargain with them, you can't reason with them, this is a lost cause. Stop provoking them and putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
I live in Brussels, I was in the subway the day of the attacks on Brussels.
The attack on the Bataclan was motivated by Western way of life being bad, gays being bad, ... Are you okay with changing that? I mean, we shouldn't provoke them and put lives at jeopardy.
You're the one who called the teacher a bigot. They were teaching. A class and warned their students.
So just to make this clear, you think it's cool to refer to the murdered man as a bigot?
I mean, I don't think many Muslims are justifying beheading of a teacher by pointing out that a lot of times these caricatures are fueling bigotry and anti-muslim sentiment under the guise of freedom of speech.
Killing people for drawings is never right. That much isn't a debate.
We have plenty of examples of this. Heck this stretches back to a hundred years ago and it still happens to this day.
I agree with this.
We have plenty of examples of this. Heck this stretches back to a hundred years ago and it still happens to this day.
User banned (1 month): Suggesting a victim was deliberately "baiting" his killer into murdering him
Do you not know what a dog whistle is?
Like can you really tell me people at an event like this are tolerant people?:
Pamela Geller
Pamela Geller is the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead.
www.splcenter.org
Same shit different country. Drawings of Muhammad are basically trolling done by islamophobes to bait radicals into attacking them so they can exploit the tragedy to justify bigoted policy.
This I agree with. There is a clear point to be made - and one I support - that no belief should be immune to criticism on pain of death. But it's also clear that people are very willing to piggy-back on that just to provoke a particular belief they don't like.
lmao at all the people wringing their hands over calling the teacher a bigot
The fuck was he taking time out of his class to show racist caricatures of the Prophet for if not bigotry?
The fuck was he taking time out of his class to show racist caricatures of the Prophet for if not bigotry?
France can be and often is incredibly boneheaded and racist about Islam and other cultures that exist within their borders, but this isn't one of those instances
Honestly, fuck Macron. Insane statements like this only serve to drive further division and create more hatred, and he knows it.
Many people don't consider things problematic when it doesn't affect them.
Don't look at this as purely religious, there is a community identity and a cultural identity wrapped up in being Muslim / from a Muslim background.
And yet it can be seen as another instance in a long line of attacking a minority in its country already treated like shit.
These things don't exist in isolation.
Do you not know what a dog whistle is?
Like can you really tell me people at an event like this are tolerant people?:
Pamela Geller
Pamela Geller is the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead.
Same shit different country. Drawings of Muhammad are basically trolling done by islamophobes to bait radicals into attacking them so they can exploit the tragedy to justify bigoted policy.
Why are you bringing up a completely different incident from a far-right islamophobe in the USA when by all accounts this was a teacher using it in a lesson about freedom of expression?
He didn't draw them. It doesn't sound like he was trying to bait radicals into attacking him so he could exploit the tragedy of his own murder....
So you defend yourself not victim blaming by... directly going back to victim blaming?Do you not know what a dog whistle is?
Like can you really tell me people at an event like this are tolerant people?:
Pamela Geller
Pamela Geller is the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead.
Same shit different country. Drawings of Muhammad are basically trolling done by islamophobes to bait radicals into attacking them so they can exploit the tragedy to justify bigoted policy.
Imagine the privilege telling another group what they can and cant find problematic.
I think calling a murdered teacher a bigot because he was teaching about freedom of speech is problematic
Discussion Guidelines
Official Staff Communication
Thread reopened, we really got off to a bad start with this one. Please observe these guidelines.
1. Do not blame the French teacher for his own killing. Do not suggest that he deserved to die, that he brought it upon himself, that he knowingly provoked his own murder, or that his murder was justified in any way. This is victim blaming.
2. It is not victim blaming to suggest that the victim may have been a bigot. Showing off illustrations of Muhammad in a country like France can be punching down at a marginalized minority. Merely pointing this out, and trying to discuss this, does not mean that violence was an appropriate response.
3. This is a sensitive thread and posters will have strong opinions. Respect other members and do not engage in personal attacks. Trolling will get you banned. If you believe another member is breaking these guidelines report them and move on.
1. Do not blame the French teacher for his own killing. Do not suggest that he deserved to die, that he brought it upon himself, that he knowingly provoked his own murder, or that his murder was justified in any way. This is victim blaming.
2. It is not victim blaming to suggest that the victim may have been a bigot. Showing off illustrations of Muhammad in a country like France can be punching down at a marginalized minority. Merely pointing this out, and trying to discuss this, does not mean that violence was an appropriate response.
3. This is a sensitive thread and posters will have strong opinions. Respect other members and do not engage in personal attacks. Trolling will get you banned. If you believe another member is breaking these guidelines report them and move on.
It seems to me that people think it's all about the cartoons, when it's just one in a whole host of ways that France has been shit to its Muslim citizens. Murder is obviously taking things too far, but it's not like any ill feelings Muslims, especially French ones, have towards the country sprang oit from nowhere or are completely unjustified.
I'm sure this is probably all just a convenient excuse for Erdogan, though. Not that I'd be against boycotts against France, generally.
Colonial powers don't get to say this.
I'm sure this is probably all just a convenient excuse for Erdogan, though. Not that I'd be against boycotts against France, generally.
Colonial powers don't get to say this.
How can Macron defend freedom of religion when it does not even exist in France?
Now he is encouraging other countries to suppress a boycott of French products, suppressing their freedom of speech.
Macron is a blatant Islamophobe, but is too cowardly to own up to it.
OP
OP
What's behind the Middle East boycott of French products?
What’s behind the Middle East boycott of French products?
Muslim leaders accuse Macron of using divisive rhetoric for political gain and alienating France’s six million Muslims.
Hmmm...Kind of hypocritical of France to on the one hand, claim freedom of expression allows them to intentionally offend others while at the same time, act entirely outraged at the notion of people exercising their own freedom of expression by boycotting French goods.
It's almost like this whole freedom angle is a sham and it's really just about Islamophobia.
It's almost like this whole freedom angle is a sham and it's really just about Islamophobia.
What's behind the Middle East boycott of French products?
What’s behind the Middle East boycott of French products?
Muslim leaders accuse Macron of using divisive rhetoric for political gain and alienating France’s six million Muslims.www.aljazeera.com
The hijab along with every other religious sign is banned in schools. It's not like the hijab was targeted in particular.
The burka ban was much more targeted, despite attempts to camouflage it as a ban against "face coverings" in general. It was a stupid appeal to the far right, given how few people wear wear a burka or niqab in France in the first place.
France has a ton of work to do on better integrating its Muslim population, but there is definite truth that Islam (and all other religions honestly) could use with some reform. France is definitely not the best to implement said reform though, that needs to come from the Muslim world. It's hard to see how it'll come about though, when you see who's in power in the region.
Fuck this way of thinking. Insulting your religion is never an excuse for violence, much less beheading. Just as people should be free to mock Christianity, so too should they be free to mock Islam without fear of violent retaliation.
I feel like this mischaracterizes what happened. It wasn't suggested that he might have been a bigot, he was declared as such. It also seems like an inflammatory accusation considering that we know that the teacher was teaching about freedom of expression and was respectful enough to ask any Muslim students to step outside if they don't want to see the images. Unless there are some new details I haven't heard about I find it wrong to smear him as such.
To further your point, the class was about how blasphemy is not a thing in France due to freedom of expression, and he used caricatures of the the three main religions in France, not just Islam but also Christianity and Judaism.
It's not like he was just randomly punching down on Islam for the hell of it.
It's almost like all three people are victims. A man was fucking beheaded over NOTHING. Why diminish his death this way?
ResetEra: How dare muslims try to boycott France, a country that is openly against Islam.
Also ResetEra in almost every thread that mentions any Arab country with oil: We should stop buying oil from the Middle East.
His death isn't being deminished this whole thread became about him when it was originally about the boycott, the 2 women who are never mentioned are the ones being deminished.
Also ResetEra in almost every thread that mentions any Arab country with oil: We should stop buying oil from the Middle East.
His death isn't being deminished this whole thread became about him when it was originally about the boycott, the 2 women who are never mentioned are the ones being deminished.
I wasn't planning on writing anything about this. Heck, I didn't think I would care this much but some of the takes in this thread rubbed me the wrong way due to the ignorance with regard to Islam. I want to start by saying that I am an Canadian Algerian and that I used to be muslim. I also want to add that I do not condone the killing of anyone and fuck the killers.
Now, some of you don't understand the significance of drawing Mohammed like this. A lot of you are saying that it's a matter of freedom of expression, while freedom of expression is good, the way you express yourself matters. Providing concrete criticism is something I absolutely support and I criticism Islam myself. However, this drawing of the prophet is not criticism, it's a direct insult to all Muslims. Islam is such a profound part of the culture of those that practice is that this depiction of the prophet is essentially a grave insult/slur. I'm not sure this is the correct term but I'd go as far as to say that it's racist and, at minimum, Islamophobic. With that said, I abhor the atrocities people made as revenge for this insult. I got in a heated argument with my mother over this because you'd think she almost supports it damn it.
The french government's display of those caricatures in the name of support of this murdered man is essentially them insulting the entirety of their muslim population. This is rich coming from France considering their colonial past and how they still take advantage of North Africa. The muslim population of France mainly comes from past colonies such as Algeria which means that, ironically, this is a problem of France's own making and the only thing they are doing is putting oil on fire. Macron's response really rubs me the wrong way. Yes, condone the killings, trash terrorists and work towards respect and integration. No, don't display slurs to your muslim population and don't you dare say: "Islam is in crisis around the world". That's none of your business.
Again, I didn't think this topic would bother me enough to post but here I am.
Now, some of you don't understand the significance of drawing Mohammed like this. A lot of you are saying that it's a matter of freedom of expression, while freedom of expression is good, the way you express yourself matters. Providing concrete criticism is something I absolutely support and I criticism Islam myself. However, this drawing of the prophet is not criticism, it's a direct insult to all Muslims. Islam is such a profound part of the culture of those that practice is that this depiction of the prophet is essentially a grave insult/slur. I'm not sure this is the correct term but I'd go as far as to say that it's racist and, at minimum, Islamophobic. With that said, I abhor the atrocities people made as revenge for this insult. I got in a heated argument with my mother over this because you'd think she almost supports it damn it.
The french government's display of those caricatures in the name of support of this murdered man is essentially them insulting the entirety of their muslim population. This is rich coming from France considering their colonial past and how they still take advantage of North Africa. The muslim population of France mainly comes from past colonies such as Algeria which means that, ironically, this is a problem of France's own making and the only thing they are doing is putting oil on fire. Macron's response really rubs me the wrong way. Yes, condone the killings, trash terrorists and work towards respect and integration. No, don't display slurs to your muslim population and don't you dare say: "Islam is in crisis around the world". That's none of your business.
Again, I didn't think this topic would bother me enough to post but here I am.
Lots of complex issues here.
However, it does feel like the people who shout "free speech" , and using it to specifically make racist, and anti-islam remarks have an agenda.
They want a polarized society, "Islam vs the West", and invoking free speech here reminds me of say, Milo going to Berkeley.
What he wanted was a culture war.
People who say "fuck religion" in this thread are missing nuance. Plenty of Muslims are protesting against this(free speech) because they're offended by this.
And how can you deny the teacher wasn't try to provoke controversy by showing Charlie Hebdo cartoons to Muslims? Completely unprofessional and inconsiderate.
And people who miss nuance are saying this is "victim blaming". Wrong.There were angry reactions from teachers and students, but nothing like what the murderer did.
Edit: "Free speech" here is being used how the Alt-right does, to antagonize and anger(troll). Just because you can say it(legally), doesn't mean you should.
And I say this as an atheist.
However, it does feel like the people who shout "free speech" , and using it to specifically make racist, and anti-islam remarks have an agenda.
They want a polarized society, "Islam vs the West", and invoking free speech here reminds me of say, Milo going to Berkeley.
What he wanted was a culture war.
People who say "fuck religion" in this thread are missing nuance. Plenty of Muslims are protesting against this(free speech) because they're offended by this.
And how can you deny the teacher wasn't try to provoke controversy by showing Charlie Hebdo cartoons to Muslims? Completely unprofessional and inconsiderate.
And people who miss nuance are saying this is "victim blaming". Wrong.There were angry reactions from teachers and students, but nothing like what the murderer did.
Edit: "Free speech" here is being used how the Alt-right does, to antagonize and anger(troll). Just because you can say it(legally), doesn't mean you should.
And I say this as an atheist.
This is from the perspective of someone that is not from the western world and religious background:
I'm aware that the drawing is a great insult to Muslim but for you do not behead people when someone insult you. In my case I will ignore them or fight back with words or physical in the most extreme situation. But we gotta have priority here, beheading people and taking picture are not acceptable for any insults being threw at you. That action is so barbaric and twist I can not even begin to think about, let alone doing it.
I'm aware that the drawing is a great insult to Muslim but for you do not behead people when someone insult you. In my case I will ignore them or fight back with words or physical in the most extreme situation. But we gotta have priority here, beheading people and taking picture are not acceptable for any insults being threw at you. That action is so barbaric and twist I can not even begin to think about, let alone doing it.
Absolutely this. Thank you ! You put it in words better than I could.
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