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Nathan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,319
France
Erf, sure it's not the best news for the Switch but the software is still early in development it seems, and I don't think everyone will be able to run the emulator. It won't be as dangerous as the R4i/CFW for PSP, so the impact won't be meaningful probably.
 
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Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Because not only is emulation bad for game companies, its bad for gamers
Emulation is essential for enthusiasts of the gaming medium because it is the only way console exclusives are ever divested (in their viable lifetime and possibilities of preservation) from complete corporate control.
 

Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,445
I really got surprised when the PS3 exploit thread had almost no one complaining. Really I thought it would get locked or no one would care lol

People here don't generally seem to even know the PS4 scene exists (or that shit like piracy has been around for years on the system), so that isn't surprising. I think we generally have over-focus on Nintendo since both fans and non-fans get pantsy about it so threads about 3DS/Switch will be lively.

Hell, most probably aren't even aware that every PS4 firmware is kernel-level compromised in private.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
You really think that lol?
You can run Wii and Wii U games in 4k. Right now. Some can even be modded with better quality textures as well.

Nintendo's primary focus on the other hand is on portable and reasonably priced hardware. 4k is a massive reach for the time being when they are only just about reliably hitting 720p. One day they'll have a 4k system, but there's no guarantee any of the games that currently exist will be remastered to take advantage of it.

With emulation, this is not a problem.

Emulation is essential for enthusiasts of the gaming medium because it is the only way console exclusives are ever divested (in their viable lifetime and possibilities of preservation) from complete corporate control.

This is a good point.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
I noticed one thing in those threads: people don't worry about piracy when a console gets hacked, but it's the opposite in emulator threads.
That sounds extremely short-sighted. A console getting hacked early on is much much worse than finding out that there is a way to use emulators. Not everyone interested in a console is a PC gamer too and want the hassle of getting an emulator to work, that's like an extreme minority I'd say. But lots of console owners have no issue going through some hurdles to get stuff they want for free, as long as there is a relatively simple way of doing it. Hardware sales could go up that way though but software sales will go down, which in the end is a very bad situation, for everyone.
 

Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,445
That sounds extremely short-sighted. A console getting hacked early on is much much worse than finding out that there is a way to use emulators. Not everyone interested in a console is a PC gamer too and want the hassle of getting an emulator to work, that's like an extreme minority I'd say. But lots of console owners have no issue going through some hurdles to get stuff they want for free, as long as there is a relatively simple way of doing it. Hardware sales could go up that way though but software sales will go down, which in the end is a very bad situation, for everyone.

For how piss easy it was on 3DS, even the slightest of hurdle will stop the vast majority because the 3DS didn't collapse post-2013 when piracy went public with Gateway. The hurdles on the Switch are much larger than those on the 3DS, also Switch is much more expensive and the thought of bricking it (or getting it banned) is going to put people off.

We're not talking PSP/DS/Wii here where all it took was buying a flashcart or a hard drive.
 

TubaZef

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,565
Brazil
People that are crazy enough to program emulators are usually more interested in learning more about the system than piracy. It sucks that most people are interested just in the piracy.
 

catboy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
Haha are you serious? No one buys authentic games after they pirate their system. In real life or online.
A video game shop owner who we frequent in the past lamented us buying flash carts for the DS, saying "I guess ill not see you in the shop anymore like everybody else!".

This mentality of 'experimenting with homebrew' and not flat out piracy only exists in Gaf and now Era.
And pc gaming doesn't actually exist because everyone there is a pirate right?

The ability to pirate things isn't going to make everyone a pirate, or else pc gaming would literally not exist because nobody would buy anything.

(Using pc as an example due to the ease of piracy on that platform, but you could insert the 3DS, another very successful system, here)
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
For how piss easy it was on 3DS, even the slightest of hurdle will stop the vast majority because the 3DS didn't collapse post-2013 when piracy went public with Gateway. The hurdles on the Switch are much larger than those on the 3DS, also Switch is much more expensive and the thought of bricking it (or getting it banned) is going to put people off.

We're not talking PSP/DS/Wii here where all it took was buying a flashcart or a hard drive.
You're right it might not go mainstream these days, but I still think a hacked console is much worse than emulators simply since the small group of PC gamers who use emulators probably never had any plan to buy the console anyway. So there may not be any lost software sales really, just more talk about the games on social media and among friends etc, which doesn't have to be a bad thing depending on how the talk goes. Ie "This game on [console] is awesome! You need to try it!" = good. "This game is unplayable on [console]! Play it on PC instead!" = bad.
 
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Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,445
You're right it might not go mainstream these days, but I still think a hacked console is much worse than emulators simply since the small group of PC gamers who use emulators probably never had any plan to buy the console anyway, so there is no lost software sales really, just more talk about the games on social media and among friends etc, which doesn't have to be a bad thing depending on how the talk goes, ie "This game on [console] is awesome! You need to try it!" = good. "This game is unplayable on [console]! Play it on PC instead!" = bad.

Can't say I've seen any one actually discuss Switch hacking beyond enthusiast circles and even then its been cursory. You have to go right into ReSwitched and the hacking community to really delve into it. These people on the eShop buying all of these indies, which are trivial to pirate on PC, aren't going to suddenly pirate them on a much more difficult to exploit system with the potential of getting it banned and losing access to the servers.

Most don't even know the state of the scene with people even in here saying how 4.x is hacked... when it really isn't.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Can't say I've seen any one actually discuss Switch hacking beyond enthusiast circles and even then its been cursory. You have to go right into ReSwitched and the hacking community to really delve into it. These people on the eShop buying all of these indies, which are trivial to pirate on PC, aren't going to suddenly pirate them on a much more difficult to exploit system with the potential of getting it banned and losing access to the servers.

Most don't even know the state of the scene with people even in here saying how 4.x is hacked... when it really isn't.
Not saying that Switch hacking is in that critical position right now, just debating the emulators vs hacking scenarios in general regarding their danger for any console.
Edit: Both things are worse on a new console though, I don't think many care much about WiiU emulators at this point, or arcade emulators on Raspberry Pi, or even NES/SNES Classic hacks, etc (other than those that has no better thing to do than debate that), but when it happens on new consoles then things starts to feel a bit iffy imo.
 

Garf02

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,420
This user is banned for a series of posts in this thread (10 days): Thread derailing. Badly researched argument.
Disgusting.

Most of the people I know who use emulators are for piracy so it's my subjective and personal opinion
Everyone knows emulation main intention is piracy. saying that is just a back up or for better perfomance is just putting the head in the sand and looking the other way trying to justify it side way. If Emulators were 100% commited only to performance, they will 1, not make it open source, 2) figure out a way that the game requires physical copy to run


from complete corporate control.
yeah!! god forbid games made by a company be playable only on the console same company manufacture!!HOW DO THEY DARE!! D:<!!! =_____________=
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
If Emulators were 100% commited only to performance, they will 1, not make it open source, 2) figure out a way that the game requires physical copy to run

Number 1 is a flat out lie. The desire to open source their emulators has nothing to do with piracy. In fact, it actually increases the likelihood of the emulator not infringing on copyright in any way, as any licensed code/BIOS can easily be seen. CEMU has always had this grey cloud hanging over it because people are not quite sure if there's anything infringing going on underneath.

Also, it's not like we haven't seen the massive potential for performance improvements to be made with a legal open source community. Dolphin is a great example of what can be done when you've built a FOSS community which is passionate.

yeah!! god forbid games made by a company be playable only on the console same company manufacture!!HOW DO THEY DARE!! D:<!!! =_____________=

Yeah, how dare they completely control what games will live and what games will die never to be seen again. You clearly couldn't give a rats ass about video game preservation.
 
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Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,445
Not saying that Switch hacking is in that critical position right now, just debating the emulators vs hacking scenarios in general regarding their danger for any console.
Edit: Both things are worse on a new console though, I don't think many care much about WiiU emulators at this point, or arcade emulators on Raspberry Pi, or even NES/SNES Classic hacks, etc (other than those that has no better thing to do than debate that), but when it happens on new consoles then things starts to feel a bit iffy imo.

Yes, they are definitely iffy but its the way things roll. The emulation side of things is definitely less harmful than hacking outright.

That said, this time around, Nintendo's security is top notch. Almost everything Switch related is because of nVidia and unstable/dangerous to tamper with. The higher we go in firmwares, the more difficult doing anything on the Switch will be. So, ideally, the scene will stay and grow on the low-end of things and the console itself will be healthy on the high-end.

But only time will tell.

That said, its not like the PS4 keeled over when it was cracked with 1.76 or the 3DS with its Gateway days.
 

Garf02

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,420
Number 1 is a flat out lie. The desire to open source their emulators has nothing to do with piracy.
making it open source means that even IF they were committed to filter out the possibility of piracy, someone else would get the code and remove said restrictions. CEMU is not on any grey cloud, CEMU rides the glory of a legal battle Sony lost that set a precedent that Emulation is legal. If Nintendo wanted to sue em about what is on teh emulator itself you think they wont be able to reverse engineer the emulator?
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
CEMU rides the glory of a legal battle Sony lost that set a precedent that Emulation is legal. If Nintendo wanted to sue em about what is on teh emulator itself you think they wont be able to reverse engineer the emulator?

Again, incorrect.

Sony lost a battle that basically confirmed the legality of emulation. This pretty much makes things like Dolphin legal without any question (until there are other legal cases which change this). Code can still be copyrighted, as can things like the BIOS as well as SDK's and things like that. This is why Dolphin does not ship with any official BIOS files by default, and uses reverse engineered ones instead.

WIth a closed source emulator like CEMU, it is hard to determine how much of the emulator has been built up on reverse engineering and bits of publically available documentation, and how much of it was built with actually illegal use of Nintendo property.

The rapid (and closed) development of CEMU has made many people wonder if there's anything illegitimate going on behind the scenes, like the use of stolen documentation, official Nintendo SDK's and such.

This is pretty much all a non-problem with open source software, as you can verify everything yourself.
 
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Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,970
You're right it might not go mainstream these days, but I still think a hacked console is much worse than emulators simply since the small group of PC gamers who use emulators probably never had any plan to buy the console anyway. So there may not be any lost software sales really, just more talk about the games on social media and among friends etc, which doesn't have to be a bad thing depending on how the talk goes. Ie "This game on [console] is awesome! You need to try it!" = good. "This game is unplayable on [console]! Play it on PC instead!" = bad.
I know that it's not your intention or even the point of your post at all, but I would personally suggest that you're making too many assumptions about the crowd who uses emulators, and I'm saying that as someone who's been involved with the scene for 20 years and still owned every mainline Nintendo platform and handheld.
A large swath of those who use emulators to play modern 3D games are people who are going back to see those games in a new light. See: any Dolphin and CEMU thread ever posted on ResetERA or NeoGAF. You'll find that those who are most gung-ho about the benefits that emulation brings (and those capable of identifying the differences to begin with) are those who played those games in their native low-res glory way back when, whether 'way back when' was 10 years ago, or last week.
 

Deleted member 4093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,671
You can run Wii and Wii U games in 4k. Right now. Some can even be modded with better quality textures as well.

Nintendo's primary focus on the other hand is on portable and reasonably priced hardware. 4k is a massive reach for the time being when they are only just about reliably hitting 720p. One day they'll have a 4k system, but there's no guarantee any of the games that currently exist will be remastered to take advantage of it.

With emulation, this is not a problem.



This is a good point.
Yeah they obviously cant hit it now but its the same stuff they said about HD and wii. They obviously cant get to it now but when they release something that will they will definitely care
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,172
You've established that either qualifies as piracy for you, so I'm not sure what you're looking for in that distinction. Let alone the fact that somehow these are the only two scenarios you've cooked up in which game files are utilized outside of their system.
When I regarded playing the game enhanced on your computer as related to piracy, I was mostly referring to someone just downloading the ISO and loading it up on the emulator Willy nilly like any other emulation that exists. And since the person was asking for reasons beyond that, it would not be the point he wanted.

If you owned the game and dumped the games yourself to play them enhanced on a computer, that's nothing troubling. Other people have given better points as to why emulation scenes are important.
 

Garf02

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,420
The rapid (and closed) development of CEMU has made many people wonder if there's anything illegitimate going on behind the scenes, like use of stolen documentation and such.
there is, but between confirming, tracking down and starting a legal battle is too much of a problem from a console that Nintendo emselves already phased out. if the same would be done on Switch they might pursue.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
there is, but between confirming, tracking down and starting a legal battle is too much of a problem from a console that Nintendo emselves already phased out. if the same would be done on Switch they might pursue.
Which is why Yuzu is open source. They can very easily prove they are not infringing anything.

Nintendo do not have a leg to stand on.
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,466
giphy.webp
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721
Xenoblade 2 would be even more amazing rendered at a higher resolutions and stable fps. Bring the emu on.
 

delete12345

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2017
19,697
Boston, MA
No matter which side is better than the other, the only thing that is unanimously agreed upon is the ethical issues emulation does:

That is:

For programmers in it for the technical challenge or the preservation of gaming history, you can see why the ethics of emulation are so important. Stay out of ethical trouble, and the rest of the emulation community can hopefully stay out of legal trouble, too.

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-ethics-o...community-and-the-law-view-console-emulators/
 

Runwhiteboyrun

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,058
No matter which side is better than the other, the only thing that is unanimously agreed upon is the ethical issues emulation does:

That is:



http://www.pcgamer.com/the-ethics-o...community-and-the-law-view-console-emulators/

Great article. Here is my favorite portion of it coming from one of the Dolphin devs, Pierre Bourdon and Frank Cifaldi:

Bourdon made a more technical argument: when new console hardware arrives, emulation is not the initial tool that enables piracy. It always follows piracy.

Had we as an industry embraced emulation instead of fighting it, we could have sold it to consumers as the wonderful tool that it is.

Frank Cifaldi
"Having open access to a console is pretty much a requirement to make good progress on emulating the system. Without it, you can't do any advanced reverse engineering and figure out how the intricacies of the system behave. And, as it turns out, having open access to a console tends to lead to piracy extremely quickly (and it becomes easier and easier over time, with e.g. custom firmwares replacing modchips).


"Piracy on the Wii U has been doable for close to 1.5 years already. At that time Cemu was just getting started and hadn't released their 1.0.0 version yet. If you own the hardware, it's so much easier to pirate a game than to play it on an emulator. Less technical fiddling, more stability, etc. That's doubly true on extremely new emulator projects. Nobody serious would recommend doing your first playthrough of BotW through Cemu at this time, you'd be spoiling your experience."
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,259
People here don't generally seem to even know the PS4 scene exists (or that shit like piracy has been around for years on the system), so that isn't surprising. I think we generally have over-focus on Nintendo since both fans and non-fans get pantsy about it so threads about 3DS/Switch will be lively.

Hell, most probably aren't even aware that every PS4 firmware is kernel-level compromised in private.
Man the Xbox is getting nothing though - dev mode is cool but really we've seen very little in the way of hacking for it, I get it's the least selling and least desirable console to hack however it didn't stop every other console ever made up to now.
 

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,203
New Jersey
It's a shame emulation discussion is basically impossible on this board because mods allow the "emulation is piracy" crowd to freely hijack every thread.
 

Vena

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,445
Progress made in Yuzu will help improve Citra

It really won't. The Switch is a complete re-write fork on Horizon. Their similarities are very limited beyond a base similarity.

Reality is, Citra/3DS has limited interest both from development time and from resource/donation incentive.

Man the Xbox is getting nothing though - dev mode is cool but really we've seen very little in the way of hacking for it, I get it's the least selling and least desirable console to hack however it didn't stop every other console ever made up to now.

Microsoft lets you run homebrew already, nothing to really hack.
 

Garf02

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,420
It's a shame emulation discussion is basically impossible on this board because mods allow the "emulation is piracy" crowd to freely hijack every thread.
so talking about the potential (and proved) wrong effect of emulation is bad for you, or this is wishful thinking and ignoring the inherited problems of emulation for companies and possible for players?
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
so talking about the potential (and proved) wrong effect of emulation is bad for you, or this is wishful thinking and ignoring the inherited problems of emulation for companies and possible for players?
Talking about negative impacts of emulation is fine.

Every fucking emulation thread on this site derailing into piracy talk can get draining and makes other topics of discussion much harder. If you want to talk about the negative effects of emulation, it would be nicer if it had its own debate thread or something.

What else can your crystal ball tell?

Putting a deadline on it is kind of difficult, but these sorts of things take a long time to build up usually. 2 years+ for good Switch emulation is not a bad estimate, in fact many would say that's lowballing it.
 

Kieli

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,736
I'm not really worried. The emulator is in its infancy and will likely require powerful computers to run. By the time it's viable (if ever) to run Switch games at 1080p/60fps, Nintendo will have probably already moved onto their next console.
 

Kilbane65

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,460
I just thought of something that could happen... If Rainway becomes a thing on Switch, and if this emulator bears fruit, we could have a very interesting situation.
One could play a Switch game on their console, that was actually being ran on an emulator on their PC, streaming to the Switch.
Pretty meta.
 

Garf02

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,420
Talking about negative impacts of emulation is fine.

Every fucking emulation thread on this site derailing into piracy talk can get draining and makes other topics of discussion much harder. If you want to talk about the negative effects of emulation, it would be nicer if it had its own debate thread or something.
what else will you talk about it then? emulator is not even out nor working and by all means CEMU is piracy behind the "better performance" excuse. and things like

Thank you Nintendo for being idiots with your encryption again.

doesnt help to disprove those ideas