WritersEra |OT| Publish before you die, writing writer writes

[SecondNature]

Im nowhere near as skilled as most others, but I've been curious to just write for fun and just see what I can do with a story. I dont expect anything but below average results, but I work with kids now, and I recently finished reading Harry Potter and Im just absolutely envious at how imaginative the world is. I mean, it's such a fun story because of how creative the premise is-- boy finds out he is a wizard and is introduced to the world of magic, where he attends a school every year and grows up with the readers.

I remember using a free program once but cant recall the name and dont really want to pay for anything advanced just because I may lose interest in the craft-- does anyone remember the name of such a program? I believe it ended with, or started with the letter "y"

 

[Deleted member 3815]

The idea that chapters should all be about the same length always seems to crop up in these Internet writing communities, and I've no idea where it came from.

A chapter should be as long as it needs to be to accomplish its goal. If it does that in 500 words or 5,000, it doesn't matter. Some novels have dozens of short chapters, some a handful of large ones. Some mix it up, and others have no chapters at all!

Do whatever your story demands.

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Okay that's good to know as lately I have been trying to keep the word count around 2000 words, though I don't mind if it goes over slightly, which left me wondering to why I was so adamant in doing that.

 

[NoirSuede]

Thanks for the help guys!

One more thing, how do you guys deal with having chapters that have too short of a length? An opening with 500 words is okay, but having the entire climax be in 500 words is too rushed, especially since these days agents wont count anything less than 60k as a novel due to printing issues

 

[Deleted member 4532]

I feel very happy closing out today. I got into my zone tonight and wrote close to 3,000 words while also throwing in some plot points I'm going to be using in the future. Also wrote some notes down on some future events I thought up.

 

[Xagarath]

Getting back into writing is something I'm trying to push myself to do. I know the most important thing is to write for yourself and what you want, but I often wonder if there was any way I could do that for a living.

Any time I've looked into it, the answer tends to emphasize the "starving artist" stereotype. But professional writing is still maybe the one thing I've got the most experience in: I've written videogame articles and reviews for a few websites for nearly ten years now. I got almost no pay for any of it, but plenty of games, so for a while that was good enough for compensation.

But I really wish I could obtain a good paying job writing, not necessarily for videogames. Sitting in front of a computer and adding my own personal flourish to words is something I could definitely do all day (it's what I practically do typing in forums like this). But job security and a steady paycheck is way more important, so it's not something I've actively pursued.

But still, maybe things have changed or there's a writing field out there I wasn't aware of. I thought I'd check in just in case, but I suspect the only answer is to continue writing and hope one day you write the next Hunger Games or Harry Potter.

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I get the impression that video game writing pays better than traditional novels unless you manage a breakthrough - look at this article by Naomi Alderman, for instance:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/15/naomi-alderman-take-video-games-seriously
She's since become a bestselling novelist, but until she wrote The Power I think most of her writing income came from her games and journalism work.

I've had a similar experience, so far - I don't make enough money from writing to even consider living on yet, but I make far more from the other work I'm doing than from my published novel.

Thanks for the help guys!

One more thing, how do you guys deal with having chapters that have too short of a length? An opening with 500 words is okay, but having the entire climax be in 500 words is too rushed, especially since these days agents wont count anything less than 60k as a novel due to printing issues

Click to shrink...

I've seen published novels with one-sentence chapters, so I wouldn't say there are any arbitary limits. As long as your overall word-count is right, do whatever works for the story.

 

[zulux21]

I feel very happy closing out today. I got into my zone tonight and wrote close to 3,000 words while also throwing in some plot points I'm going to be using in the future. Also wrote some notes down on some future events I thought up.

Click to shrink...

nicely done... I got through some horrible set up to the main part of the final chapter I wanted to get to.
now to try and make this chapter last less than 10k words lol.

I get the impression that video game writing pays better than traditional novels unless you manage a breakthrough - look at this article by Naomi Alderman, for instance:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/15/naomi-alderman-take-video-games-seriously
She's since become a bestselling novelist, but until she wrote The Power I think most of her writing income came from her games and journalism work.

I've had a similar experience, so far - I don't make enough money from writing to even consider living on yet, but I make far more from the other work I'm doing than from my published novel.



I've seen published novels with one-sentence chapters, so I wouldn't say there are any arbitary limits. As long as your overall word-count is right, do whatever works for the story.

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I would say you need a breakthrough in order to make money off video game writing as well. I mean, most major publishers are going to want an established author in order to hire them, and most indie studios are likely going to want to do whatever story they already have in mind and not want to hire some random author to do that.

I mean, if you could work with an indie from the start that could be fine, but then you would need to be working with people who can program games, and I can tell you for a fact there are far more people with ideas for people who can program games than there are people who can program games.

that being said, if you can draw decently, and have a story to tell, you could likely use something to make a visual novel and have that sell easier than a normal novel.

 

[Kickmaster Kim]

I get the impression that video game writing pays better than traditional novels unless you manage a breakthrough - look at this article by Naomi Alderman, for instance:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/15/naomi-alderman-take-video-games-seriously
She's since become a bestselling novelist, but until she wrote The Power I think most of her writing income came from her games and journalism work.

I've had a similar experience, so far - I don't make enough money from writing to even consider living on yet, but I make far more from the other work I'm doing than from my published novel.



I've seen published novels with one-sentence chapters, so I wouldn't say there are any arbitary limits. As long as your overall word-count is right, do whatever works for the story.

Click to shrink...

Damn, I thought one page was the weirdest shit I've ever seen. I hate short ass chapters and books without chapters.

 

[zulux21]

Damn, I thought one page was the weirdest shit I've ever seen. I hate short ass chapters and books without chapters.

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on sentence chapters are stupid, but I've read one page chapters that felt fine. They coupled it with a scene that abruptly ended for the characters as well, so it felt right :P

in other thoughts got my daily words, but I am not feeling good about my ability to keep this chapter under 10k words.

might have to break this into two parts, but then I wouldn't be working on the last chapter like I want to be doing lol. oh well I will just write it all out and see where I end up and worry about breaking it later.

 

[Conkersbadfurday]

When you find a good agent, send a good query, and realize you didn't title the fucking email.

Oh well. I'll resend in six months.

 

[Dedication Through Light]

I thought it seemed hard for most to make a livable wage from doing novels. Its such a crowded market out there, even more for the sake of getting ones story there to be able to convince folks to read, and more to become word of mouth enough to get more people to read.

I guess you really make it if you can get it as a tv or movie adaptation.

 

[Dary]

Last time I checked, the average income for a full-time writer in the UK is around £11,000. That's not even a living wage (around £18,000) or anywhere near the national average (£24,000).

There's are several reasons the creative arts are dominated by the middle classes - this is one of them.

 

[SOLDIER]

I thought it seemed hard for most to make a livable wage from doing novels. Its such a crowded market out there, even more for the sake of getting ones story there to be able to convince folks to read, and more to become word of mouth enough to get more people to read.

I guess you really make it if you can get it as a tv or movie adaptation.

Click to shrink...

I'm curious if there are any statistics that determine whether or not having drawings that accompany the work increases your odds/salary significantly.

I've been looking into taking up drawing, with that notion as a big motivator. Not for comics, mind you, but insert illustrations or the kind typically seen in Light Novels. I think it helps when readers have a visual reference to go with the character or place they're supposed to be following.

I get the impression that video game writing pays better than traditional novels unless you manage a breakthrough - look at this article by Naomi Alderman, for instance:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/15/naomi-alderman-take-video-games-seriously
She's since become a bestselling novelist, but until she wrote The Power I think most of her writing income came from her games and journalism work.

I've had a similar experience, so far - I don't make enough money from writing to even consider living on yet, but I make far more from the other work I'm doing than from my published novel.



I've seen published novels with one-sentence chapters, so I wouldn't say there are any arbitary limits. As long as your overall word-count is right, do whatever works for the story.

Click to shrink...

From what I've researched, video games as a written profession is just as hard and pays peanuts. It's a highly competitive market where you would spend years following trade shows just for the hope of getting that word of mouth.

I would think my only shot is getting in with an up-and-coming website publication, of which there are also many out there and typically don't last past a month.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

I'm curious if there are any statistics that determine whether or not having drawings that accompany the work increases your odds/salary significantly.

I've been looking into taking up drawing, with that notion as a big motivator. Not for comics, mind you, but insert illustrations or the kind typically seen in Light Novels. I think it helps when readers have a visual reference to go with the character or place they're supposed to be following.

Click to shrink...

I want to know this as well seeing as how I want a career doing graphic novels. I just need money to live lol.

 

[zulux21]

I'm curious if there are any statistics that determine whether or not having drawings that accompany the work increases your odds/salary significantly.

I've been looking into taking up drawing, with that notion as a big motivator. Not for comics, mind you, but insert illustrations or the kind typically seen in Light Novels. I think it helps when readers have a visual reference to go with the character or place they're supposed to be following.



From what I've researched, video games as a written profession is just as hard and pays peanuts. It's a highly competitive market where you would spend years following trade shows just for the hope of getting that word of mouth.

I would think my only shot is getting in with an up-and-coming website publication, of which there are also many out there and typically don't last past a month.

Click to shrink...

I'm going to have to eventually hire an illustrator if I try to publish my main story. It's modeled after light novels so obviously I want some insert art lol.

so that would likely be a good secondary thing, as even without insert art you could also aim for book covers.

but yeah.... in general video game developers don't want "idea people" whether that is game pitches or stories for games. There are a ton of people who have ideas, the people with the skill to create a game are far lower.

you can get lucky adn find some but I can't imagine it would be any easier of a path to go for than traditional publishing.

 

[dragonchild]

Average can't be the whole story anyway. I liken writers' earnings to professional sports -- but the whole picture, not just what people want to see. There are the superstars making all the money in the world (Rowling, etc.), then there are the established professional multi-millionaires. This is what everyone sees. And then for every one of them, there are thousands of minor leaguers trying to break in, scraping along at that level, or on their way out, but only the top end of them don't need supplemental income to make ends meet. I get the feeling professional sports and creative pursuits share in common that the mean and median wages are very far apart. Average includes those superstars, so the median is much, much lower.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

I've been reflecting on why someone should write for a bit now, and I think writing with the hope of making a living is kind of too lofty of a goal. its such a rare percentage that I'm starting to question if its a mentally healthy goal to try and bash your head against.

 

[SOLDIER]

I'm going to have to eventually hire an illustrator if I try to publish my main story. It's modeled after light novels so obviously I want some insert art lol.

so that would likely be a good secondary thing, as even without insert art you could also aim for book covers.

but yeah.... in general video game developers don't want "idea people" whether that is game pitches or stories for games. There are a ton of people who have ideas, the people with the skill to create a game are far lower.

you can get lucky adn find some but I can't imagine it would be any easier of a path to go for than traditional publishing.

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I was actually referring to publications that cover games, like Giant Bomb and Polygon.

I still envy the notion of a job that's basically a group of friends casually talking and playing games. Obviously it requires more work than what we don't see behind the scenes, but I have to imagine that the majority of the time they're having fun on the job.

 

[dragonchild]

I've been reflecting on why someone should write for a bit now, and I think writing with the hope of making a living is kind of too lofty of a goal. its such a rare percentage that I'm starting to question if its a mentally healthy goal to try and bash your head against.

Click to shrink...

I'd rather put this in terms of what it takes, if one doesn't count on the random success like the sort E.L. James enjoys, which had nothing to do with merit. I tend to talk pessimistic but underneath all that, there's a me that keeps going, "It's possible." I'm just not deluded about the challenge. The ones who claw and scrape their way to the top, they work their asses off. Invariably, dreams of fame & fortune can't be enough; there's got to be some irrational passion driving that kind of effort. So when people solicit feedback I've assumed they wanted to get better, so when I've tried to help, I've done so working from the premise that their stated goals of becoming established aren't mere idle dreams. . .

. . . and this DOES NOT go over well at all. FWIW, up to you to believe it or not, but my record at identifying professional talent is close to perfect (not limited to writing but those I picked to go pro have mostly gone pro, those I didn't pick haven't AFAIK). So for a while I sincerely felt like I had something to offer, but like most highly competitive pursuits, succeeding by getting good is such an uphill climb that beating around the bush is a mutual waste of time. I can coddle others' feelings or respect their goals, and when I choose the latter, I'm almost universally perceived as a bully (except, notably enough, by those with pro potential -- they have a better idea of what it takes). Maybe I'm just bad at it, I'm not trying to be mean, but I've basically stopped helping others that way. Now I just kind of bounce ideas around but I no longer take anyone's stated ambitions seriously.

 

[dragonchild]

Back to earnings, this is a BBC article about how well romance authors are doing, relatively speaking, and the median as of 2014 was. . .

less than $10k, taking this at face value, if you're shoveling smut out the door. If you're not good at helping lonely frustrated women get their jollies (and TBH I'm rather jealous because I'm about as romantic as a hemorrhoid) you're not necessarily doomed, but less than $4k is "don't quit your day job" territory.

Edit: I'm also somewhat amused by the article's conclusion that romance authors are more successful because of the community. Not like 50 Shades kicked off a new wave of smut consumption or anything.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

I'd rather put this in terms of what it takes, if one doesn't count on the random success like the sort E.L. James enjoys, which had nothing to do with merit. I tend to talk pessimistic but underneath all that, there's a me that keeps going, "It's possible." I'm just not deluded about the challenge. The ones who claw and scrape their way to the top, they work their asses off. Invariably, dreams of fame & fortune can't be enough; there's got to be some irrational passion driving that kind of effort. So when people solicit feedback I've assumed they wanted to get better, so when I've tried to help, I've done so working from the premise that their stated goals of becoming established aren't mere idle dreams. . .

. . . and this DOES NOT go over well at all. FWIW, up to you to believe it or not, but my record at identifying professional talent is close to perfect (not limited to writing but those I picked to go pro have mostly gone pro, those I didn't pick haven't AFAIK). So for a while I sincerely felt like I had something to offer, but like most highly competitive pursuits, succeeding by getting good is such an uphill climb that beating around the bush is a mutual waste of time. I can coddle others' feelings or respect their goals, and when I choose the latter, I'm almost universally perceived as a bully (except, notably enough, by those with pro potential -- they have a better idea of what it takes). Maybe I'm just bad at it, I'm not trying to be mean, but I've basically stopped helping others that way. Now I just kind of bounce ideas around but I no longer take anyone's stated ambitions seriously.

Click to shrink...

I understand completely what you mean, but I feel like the end goal for sooooo many people is to become pro. To make enough money off of it. No one ever says rich, no one likes to say "rich" but we all secretly think it. I recently finished Bird by Bird by Anne Lammot and one of the things she said that's been really sticking with me lately is you can write for other reasons than fame and the prospect of a career. You can write just because you want to, to enjoy the effort and the reflection that comes from it without the need to show it to others. And I think about that along with stories of people like Henry Darger who wrote hundreds of thousands of pages of some weird and pretty fucked up stuff but never showed it to anyone. He was just content to write stories for himself, never once showing it to other people. And I don't really know.... I'm just kind of rambling at this point but I think writing is kind of an amazing thing to do but I think too many people get unnecessarily heartbroken but the struggle to become professional when they could be maybe more happy just.... you know, writing.

 

[dragonchild]

I understand completely what you mean, but I feel like the end goal for sooooo many people is to become pro. To make enough money off of it. No one ever says rich, no one likes to say "rich" but we all secretly think it.

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Oh, I believe it, but I've learned the hard way that for most it's about as realistic as my boyhood dreams of becoming an astronaut. Generally speaking, I've only seen a few with the make-up and the mettle. It's frustrating, because the way I've always been is, if you're going to try something, whether you're chasing a star or just killing time, why not get good at it? Why do so many writers show potential but immediately seek validation when their craft is as raw as sushi that's still swimming in the ocean?

As for why I write, this was in all honesty my call to arms:

I think hard times are coming when we will be wanting the voices of writers who can see alternatives to how we live now, and can see through our fear-stricken society and its obsessive technologies to other ways of being, and even imagine some real grounds for hope. We will need writers who can remember freedom. Poets, visionaries—the realists of a larger reality.
. . .
We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art, and very often in our art—the art of words.

Click to shrink...

I think those "hard times" are here, now, and this could be the most ridiculous thing I've ever said but I've got this feeling welling up in my gut that's proving impossible to ignore, and it's that if given the chance, I can answer this call. She's not alive anymore to see it either way but I wish I could've told her what this means to me. I'm not writing to appeal to a market segment or to get rich or to reminisce about some D&D campaign where the bard managed to lose his underpants in a troglodyte den. Financial success would be evidence that my works (if they ever exist) were consumed, but what I really want is to hear even just a few fans say, "You changed the way I see things." I'd take that over a nine-figure paycheck because do you know what that is, to change others? It's immortality.

Anyway. Only one appropriate way to end such a thought:

 

[Master Milk]

RICH

 

[Deleted member 3815]

Honestly when I am writing I just write stories that that I want to write and I have strong feeling that people will enjoy the novel that I am writing. Though hearing that you it will be difficult to make a living from writing does bother me a bit as while I wasn't expecting my novels to make me millions I did hope that it would bring in decent earning to live on.

While I am still throwing out CV on my job hunt search I am not gonna give up on my dream to get a novel published, even if I have to go through the self publishing route as I prefer the freedom of being a writer rather than being stuck in a 9-5 job.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

Honestly when I am writing I just write stories that that I want to write and I have strong feeling that people will enjoy the novel that I am writing. Though hearing that you it will be difficult to make a living from writing does bother me a bit as while I wasn't expecting my novels to make me millions I did hope that it would bring in decent earning to live on.

While I am still throwing out CV on my job hunt search I am not gonna give up on my dream to get a novel published, even if I have to go through the self publishing route as I prefer the freedom of being a writer rather than being stuck in a 9-5 job.

Click to shrink...

This is how I'm feeling right now. I believe I have some great stories that will resonate with some people, I even got back into drawing everyday to prep myself for the day when I finally draw everything out.

I've been wanting to draw comics since I was a child but was always reluctant but now I feel like I will do anything possible to do it. I don't want millions just something to live on while I do it.

 

[Fable]

Back to earnings, this is a BBC article about how well romance authors are doing, relatively speaking, and the median as of 2014 was. . .

less than $10k, taking this at face value, if you're shoveling smut out the door. If you're not good at helping lonely frustrated women get their jollies (and TBH I'm rather jealous because I'm about as romantic as a hemorrhoid) you're not necessarily doomed, but less than $4k is "don't quit your day job" territory.

Edit: I'm also somewhat amused by the article's conclusion that romance authors are more successful because of the community. Not like 50 Shades kicked off a new wave of smut consumption or anything.

Click to shrink...

Your comment about "lonely frustrated women" is a perfect example of why romance writers had to create their own community. Romance is a billion dollar genre and yet if you tell someone you write romance they don't take your seriously. You're "shoveling smut." 50 Shades brought it into the mainstream and made it "alright" to talk about. It definitely boosted sales for certain subgenres, but romance was already a billion dollar industry and already represented 34% of the US Fiction market.

You can disagree with the articles conclusion that the community is the reason for their success but saying it's all because of one book, a book that a lot of long time romance readers don't even like, is really doing a disservice to the authors writing in the genre and their abilities.

Also, before you decide to belittle an entire genre's authors and readers maybe do a little research into all that they've had to put up with over the years. RWA has a lot of good statistics, Wikipedia has a good general article, and I'm sure Google has a lot of information.

 

[zulux21]

I understand completely what you mean, but I feel like the end goal for sooooo many people is to become pro. To make enough money off of it. No one ever says rich, no one likes to say "rich" but we all secretly think it. I recently finished Bird by Bird by Anne Lammot and one of the things she said that's been really sticking with me lately is you can write for other reasons than fame and the prospect of a career. You can write just because you want to, to enjoy the effort and the reflection that comes from it without the need to show it to others. And I think about that along with stories of people like Henry Darger who wrote hundreds of thousands of pages of some weird and pretty fucked up stuff but never showed it to anyone. He was just content to write stories for himself, never once showing it to other people. And I don't really know.... I'm just kind of rambling at this point but I think writing is kind of an amazing thing to do but I think too many people get unnecessarily heartbroken but the struggle to become professional when they could be maybe more happy just.... you know, writing.

Click to shrink...

Man.... I think trying to go pro sounds like an easier goal than I have...
which is merely finish my damn story >.<;

oh well at least I am estimated to be about 20% done...
400k words down only 1.6mil to go :P (until I figure out I have a lot more to tell and it becomes estimated to be 3 mil >.>)

 

[Xagarath]

I'd rather put this in terms of what it takes, if one doesn't count on the random success like the sort E.L. James enjoys, which had nothing to do with merit.

Click to shrink...

She worked as a professional publicist. Her success might not appear to be linked to writing skill (although the ability to write plots that people find compelling is a skill, regardless of the prose), but it wasn't random.

 

[zulux21]

That feeling when you write 1k words, and realize that while you enjoyed them, and they will likely make the final version as they work to help build new characters, you actually didn't advance your end of book plot at all with them.

oh well, I can worry about it in editing (finding other places to cut if the story is to long after editing still). It makes far more sense for the people my party are trying to convince to aid them in an upcoming battle to have a ton of questions about why they should help them instead of just going. Sure, we will help you. Especially since the people they are trying to convince are an up and coming power, while the one that threatens my party is the second strongest power in the world lol.

 

[dragonchild]

Romance is a billion dollar genre and yet if you tell someone you write romance they don't take your seriously. You're "shoveling smut." 50 Shades brought it into the mainstream and made it "alright" to talk about. It definitely boosted sales for certain subgenres, but romance was already a billion dollar industry and already represented 34% of the US Fiction market.

Click to shrink...

. . . and? No one with ambitions beyond merely shoveling a commodity, whether it's romance or whatever, would tout the size of the market as any sort of vindication. If anything, it highlights the difference between the pressure to commodify and the pursuit of an art. It's a choice most writers have to confront at some point, and it's no secret where the hell the money's at. I'm sure there are terrific romance stories out there, but they're not the one that blew up sales records. It's not strictly a romance thing; the highest-grossing "sci-fi" movie is Avatar. The fans have spoken, and they want schlock. You want romance to be taken seriously, but you're touting its commodification? You do realize I'm not an investor, right?

FWIW fantasy's my thing and it's taken even less seriously than romance; it's just as escapist but without the financial success so what the bloody hell are we doing with our sweat and time. Thing is, I'm not in denial about the quality of the average fantasy work. It'd be easy for me to say its relative obscurity has spared it from the curse of commodification, but even established fantasy authors lament that most writers of the last two generations are either still chasing the ghost of Tolkien or just trying to get their old D&D campaigns in published form. So it's mostly crap, without even a convenient excuse. FFS two of the most celebrated epics of the last twenty years both infamously fell apart prior to completion. But I'm not bothered by any of this. I don't take personally the collective disdain directed at fantasy. I see it as a challenge.

Now, the question is, does that make you feel better? Does it make me appear more impartial, if I show a willingness to confront the issues of my own genre with just as harsh a light? Because if so, that's a serious problem.

 

[Dary]

I'm curious if there are any statistics that determine whether or not having drawings that accompany the work increases your odds/salary significantly.

I've been looking into taking up drawing, with that notion as a big motivator. Not for comics, mind you, but insert illustrations or the kind typically seen in Light Novels. I think it helps when readers have a visual reference to go with the character or place they're supposed to be following.

Click to shrink...

I think it depends heavily on your demographics. Some would be into that sort of thing, others would see it and run a mile. It's one of the reasons why I'm so cautious about using illustrations with my writing: people attracted by the artstyle won't necessarily be those interested in the writing itself.

The other issue is that you're then forcing a specific image on your readers, telling them what characters look like instead of showing them. This has been a particularly awkward issue for me, since I've characters whose appearance is literally defined by the person observing them, so they have no set design...

I've been reflecting on why someone should write for a bit now, and I think writing with the hope of making a living is kind of too lofty of a goal. its such a rare percentage that I'm starting to question if its a mentally healthy goal to try and bash your head against.

Click to shrink...

The way I see it is: don't write to become rich or famous, or because you want people to validate you, because the chances are you'll never get those things. Write because you have something to say - a story to tell - and because the thought of not writing it drives you insane.

Presently, though it eats up a huge amount of my free time (ie. most of it), the stuff I write has drawn in maybe fifty readers and makes me $0 (I once started a Patreon, which brought in...$3. From a friend.). But I don't plan to stop any time soon. I can't.

 

[weemadarthur]

if you're not good at helping lonely frustrated women get their jollies (and TBH I'm rather jealous because I'm about as romantic as a hemorrhoid) you're not necessarily doomed, but less than $4k is "don't quit your day job" territory.

Edit: I'm also somewhat amused by the article's conclusion that romance authors are more successful because of the community. Not like 50 Shades kicked off a new wave of smut consumption or anything.

Click to shrink...

This community of writers is inclusive of all levels of experience, and skills. It also doesn't crap all over other genres. It particularly doesn't crap all over the reading taste of an entire gender.

Your issues with being seen as a bully are clearly from your difficulties not bullying people, and not because all the people you interact with are wrong. You are the common denominator.

Please adjust your behaviors in this topic.

 

[dragonchild]

Understood, I went too far and apologize. My frustrations are genuine but they're mine, so if at times I've felt I've wanted to swing a sledgehammer at the problems I see, I suppose it helps to look before swinging. An indiscriminately blind swing may as well be wanton destruction.

 

[Valdfellgar]

Well, change of topic, just got back another query rejection. Sigh. But based on a little research it looks like I'm not helping myself by marketing my sci-fi/thriller as Dystopian. While it does take place in a Dystopian future, apparently Hunger Games and other similar books have redefined that word for agents to have a very specific meaning? It's kinda frustrating that there's this "dead genre" mini-game with some agents, where you have to avoid certain words otherwise it's a big red flag.

Edit: Oh I'll also add though, on the flip side, that rejection letters are so much nicer for novels compared to screenplays. Screenwriting agents are so curt and rude. Book Agents all seem to be on the cusp of apologizing for not finding your work to their liking. So much nicer on the ego.

 

[dragonchild]

But based on a little research it looks like I'm not helping myself by marketing my sci-fi/thriller as Dystopian. While it does take place in a Dystopian future, apparently Hunger Games and other similar books have redefined that word for agents to have a very specific meaning?

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Well, how are you using "dystopian"? Whatever The Hunger Games did to the popular meaning of the term, I can't imagine why a franchise that did so well would make the word toxic. What research did you find?

 

[Dary]

I use "mystopian" to confuse/intrigue people, myself. It makes sense I'm context.

 

[Valdfellgar]

Well, how are you using "dystopian"? Whatever The Hunger Games did to the popular meaning of the term, I can't imagine why a franchise that did so well would make the word toxic. What research did you find?

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Articles, forum discussion. Basically the idea isn't that Hunger Games poisoned the word, but all the books that came after it that copied its usage of that more specific Dystopian setting. I use it as the dictionary definition: "relating to or denoting an imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one." to describe the setting of my novel because it does take place in an unpleasant future. But supposedly it's been co-opted to refer more specifically to Hunger Games' type settings/tropes. What I found was a lot of agents don't want to see Dystopian stuff, because they think it'll all be Hunger Games-esque and that's been done to death now? *shrug* I never read or watched Hunger Games, so I have no idea how much post-Hunger Games Dystopian fiction aped it.

 

[Randomly Generated]

Yeah, starting about 3-4 years ago people were getting cautioned to not call their books dystopian when querying due to the post-Hunger Games saturation, similar to what happened with Twilight and paranormal. Back when I was querying, it wasn't uncommon to see advice stating you should just call your book science fiction instead of dystopian.

 

[SOLDIER]

I think it depends heavily on your demographics. Some would be into that sort of thing, others would see it and run a mile. It's one of the reasons why I'm so cautious about using illustrations with my writing: people attracted by the artstyle won't necessarily be those interested in the writing itself.

The other issue is that you're then forcing a specific image on your readers, telling them what characters look like instead of showing them. This has been a particularly awkward issue for me, since I've characters whose appearance is literally defined by the person observing them, so they have no set design...



The way I see it is: don't write to become rich or famous, or because you want people to validate you, because the chances are you'll never get those things. Write because you have something to say - a story to tell - and because the thought of not writing it drives you insane.

Presently, though it eats up a huge amount of my free time (ie. most of it), the stuff I write has drawn in maybe fifty readers and makes me $0 (I once started a Patreon, which brought in...$3. From a friend.). But I don't plan to stop any time soon. I can't.

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I understand the importance of writing because you want to, but I really do value acknowledgement above all else. When people praised my works in the past, I felt this utter sense of joy as well as MOTIVATION to continue.

Being able to write professionally would truly be a dream come true, but that's all it ever is.

 

[Valdfellgar]

Yeah, starting about 3-4 years ago people were getting cautioned to not call their books dystopian when querying due to the post-Hunger Games saturation, similar to what happened with Twilight and paranormal. Back when I was querying, it wasn't uncommon to see advice stating you should just call your book science fiction instead of dystopian.

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Yeah I guess I'll be doing that for all future queries. I'd hate to have my work passed up just because people thought, wrongly, it's a hunger games clone.

 

[Shoeless]

Yeah I guess I'll be doing that for all future queries. I'd hate to have my work passed up just because people thought, wrongly, it's a hunger games clone.

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Yeah, this is fairly easy fix, if it's just your query. Rather than simply use the short hand term dystopian to describe your bleak future, take a sentence or two in the query to specify what it is that's put the world in such a state. The Hunger Games has more or less taken dystopian and turned it specifically into a totalitarian state of some kind that, for reasons unique to each book, specifically targets teenagers, which is why the young adult market then got saturated with dystopian titles and the teens that incite the revolution that takes down that system. So now the dystopian market, when that word is used, tends to generate expectations of teen rebels destroying taking on a corrupt society and winning. So yeah... not exactly 1984...

 

[Valdfellgar]

Yeah, this is fairly easy fix, if it's just your query. Rather than simply use the short hand term dystopian to describe your bleak future, take a sentence or two in the query to specify what it is that's put the world in such a state. The Hunger Games has more or less taken dystopian and turned it specifically into a totalitarian state of some kind that, for reasons unique to each book, specifically targets teenagers, which is why the young adult market then got saturated with dystopian titles and the teens that incite the revolution that takes down that system. So now the dystopian market, when that word is used, tends to generate expectations of teen rebels destroying taking on a corrupt society and winning. So yeah... not exactly 1984...

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Yeah I did describe what lead to/the kind of bleak future in my title for the query: The book focuses on an endless era of stagnation after the assassination of the first world president. Just I ham strung myself by not realizing the sheer stigma Dystopian now carries and how, when rereading the query with what Dystopian has come to mean, the query comes off. I also described the protagonist as a young man (and while 30 is relatively young, couple that with Dystopian and you get an entirely different picture...) only compounding the misreading. But yeah, you're right, it's a pretty easy fix. I'm hoping a couple tweaks and I won't have to worry about it possibly being misread like that.

 

[dragonchild]

So "dystopian" saturated the YA market, but do publishers now think "dystopian" automatically means a YA audience?

 

[ODD]

Im nowhere near as skilled as most others, but I've been curious to just write for fun and just see what I can do with a story. I dont expect anything but below average results, but I work with kids now, and I recently finished reading Harry Potter and Im just absolutely envious at how imaginative the world is. I mean, it's such a fun story because of how creative the premise is-- boy finds out he is a wizard and is introduced to the world of magic, where he attends a school every year and grows up with the readers.

I remember using a free program once but cant recall the name and dont really want to pay for anything advanced just because I may lose interest in the craft-- does anyone remember the name of such a program? I believe it ended with, or started with the letter "y"

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Have you tried writing anything? I'm curious. :P

 

[Dary]

I remember using a free program once but cant recall the name and dont really want to pay for anything advanced just because I may lose interest in the craft-- does anyone remember the name of such a program? I believe it ended with, or started with the letter "y"

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Was it yWriter? I remember that from years back. A sort of proto-scrivener.

 

[Valdfellgar]

So "dystopian" saturated the YA market, but do publishers now think "dystopian" automatically means a YA audience?

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No idea. My book is squarely in adult fiction, but what I learned of what agents (some) think, it sure read like Dystopian is now associated to mean YA oriented works, even if you aren't specifically marketing it as YA. If you're curious I think all you need to do is google something like "Dystopian Dead Genre" and you'll get some of what I stumbled upon.

 

[SecondNature]

Have you tried writing anything? I'm curious. :P

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Yeahhh well I have an outline for a story and wrote it out, but Ill never be brave enough to share it lol

Naturally my first thought is "this is a lame idea"

I just keep daydreaming on how best to write the plot and all that

Was it yWriter? I remember that from years back. A sort of proto-scrivener.

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Yes thanks :) I ended up using word however

 

[dragonchild]

I think all you need to do is google something like "Dystopian Dead Genre" and you'll get some of what I stumbled upon.

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Oh, my goodness, you weren't kidding. I'm not used to Google searches being this straightforward.

 

[ODD]

Yeahhh well I have an outline for a story and wrote it out, but Ill never be brave enough to share it lol

I just keep daydreaming on how best to write the plot and all that

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Oh, I know how it is. The idea inside your head is wonderful, but when you start to put on paper it looks so silly. But of course it's just an outline of a story. When you really write the way it is meant to be, it will be cool, right? Well, it will not. I'm sorry to say this, but you will hate it. You will feel pathetic, but don't give up. Write this shit til the end. Don't give up. Read it only when you have finished. It will be awful, but trust me, you can fix it. You will delete a lot of lines of text, maybe even entire chapters, and will rewrite a lot of stuff. Is it good now? No. Don't give up. Do it again and again til it's good. Do it, unless you find out that your initial idea wasn't so good after all.

 

[SecondNature]

Oh, I know how it is. The idea inside your hear is wonderful, but when you start to put on paper it looks so silly. But of course it's just an outline of a story. When you really write the way it is meant to be, it will be cool, right? Well, it will not. I'm sorry to say this, but you will hate it. You will feel pathetic, but don't give up. Write this shit til the end. Don't give up. Read it only when you have finished. It will be awful, but trust me, you can fix it. You will delete a lot of lines of text, maybe even entire chapters, and will rewrite a lot of stuff. Is it good now? No. Don't give up. Do it again and again til it's good. Do it, unless you find out that your initial idea wasn't so good after all.

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Thanks man :)

I work with kids and kind of want to write a kids novel, that grows in complexity. Im sure everyone whose read harry potter felt the same, but Im curious what I can do

Ive thought of the idea for quite a while too, as wel as the details/worldbuilding elements, but never was sure how to present it — series or short stories, novel, novels, etc

Getting ahead of myself of course, but I figure itd be fun to plot out the ideas at least.

How long have you written for?

 

[Randomly Generated]

So "dystopian" saturated the YA market, but do publishers now think "dystopian" automatically means a YA audience?

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The problem is that while it started in YA it inevitably trickles up into other categories.