Oh great, on another thread some people posted up tit ninjas and lingerie power girls as examples of good desing despite that not being the intent of the OP.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Why do these posts keep turning into essays? I need an editor.
On that front...
It surprises me to see, but I can realistically believe that it may never have occurred to someone before and I always try to assume for as long as I possibly can that someone's arguing in good faith, so I want to add to the chorus of people reinforcing that it's not that people are resorting to criticizing how the camera moves, but rather that how the camera moves is one of the focal points of the criticism to begin with.
Whether in film, animation, or video games, how the camera moves and focuses on different objects isn't just an incidental thing that some random tech does. It's a literal art form, that people spend entire careers honing and develop distinctive signature techniques for. It's no different from painting, or illustration, or sculpture, or anything else. Cinematography is an art form with as many techniques and as elaborate of a 'language' of its own as anything else. When people criticize what the camera's doing, they're criticizing the creative decisions made by an artist, just as they would criticize the decisions made by the character designer, or the concept artists and modelers who worked on the backgrounds, or anything else.
It's also important to recognize that artists generally welcome criticism of their work. It helps us improve and think about how we do things and reconsider and think about our reasoning for making creative decisions. Even when we don't agree with the criticism, it's generally useful food for thought. Criticizing works of art doesn't mean that those critiquing want to take the art away, or for the artist to stop making it. We criticize things because we care about them. Will we always agree on whether our criticisms will make the work better? Of course not. Will those criticisms always prompt actual change? Nope. But that doesn't make the discussion invalid. Critique and discussion of these things keeps the discussion in the public conscious. Maybe it'll make its way to a developer and they'll change things, maybe they won't, but the very act of discussing it is important on its own. Speaking personally, I enjoy it the least when people only have positive things to say about my art, because I'm always striving to improve both as an artist and a person and critique of things I get wrong helps me to do that.
Nobody wants to take away games with sexy characters in them or for them to stop existing. Okay that MIGHT be wrong, but nobody HERE wants to take away games with sexy characters in them or for them to stop existing. The problem isn't that they exist, it's that they're everywhere and becoming more common in certain genres with time. What we refer to as "sexualization" has become so ingrained in our culture that there are instances where people don't even SEE the techniques being used, or less experienced artists use them without even realizing what they're doing. If the sexualization is a flavor that's directed at you, you may notice and enjoy it, or you may overlook it entirely like you might overlook the pretty textures on that rock over there because it's normal and not offputting to you. When you're NOT the target of the sexualization, it can stand out and slap you right in the face when you see it, and it's not a pleasant feeling. Me? I'm the target of most of the sexualization that the medium throws around. But what I always try to do, and what I'd love to see EVERYONE try to do in an ideal world, is try to recognize how certain things might make me feel if I wasn't the target.
In this case it'd make me feel like crap, to be blunt. I know what it feels like to feel like crap, so I'm always down for trying to do what I can to help other people not feel like crap.
On the final point, disagreement is what makes debates and discussions happen, and I don't think anyone's interested in straight up banning dissenting voices, but when you have to resort to claiming that a group of people aren't true gamers in order to try to make your point, it's really time to step back for a minute to think about what caused you to resort to that type of response. We can't come to an understanding of one another, or god forbid even wind up agreeing on anything or convincing one another of something, if we're not willing to at least refrain from direct attacks on those who are arguing against us. I'd really encourage you to keep participating if you can, but I think it'll be important to consider for yourself why you have the stances you have beyond just being naturally put off by the things people are saying because it feels wrong to you. It'll be useful in trying to articulate your arguments when you come back. Even if you don't agree with us, maybe you'll learn something about why we feel the way we do.
Yeaaah... There are, well, many thousands of ways you can focus on the hands without secondary focus on the chest even in an outfit with immense cleavage. While I'm sure it has happened on accident before, generally speaking with a shot that overt, you can assume it wasn't an accident if the cinematographer isn't an absolute first timer.
On that front...
It surprises me to see, but I can realistically believe that it may never have occurred to someone before and I always try to assume for as long as I possibly can that someone's arguing in good faith, so I want to add to the chorus of people reinforcing that it's not that people are resorting to criticizing how the camera moves, but rather that how the camera moves is one of the focal points of the criticism to begin with.
Whether in film, animation, or video games, how the camera moves and focuses on different objects isn't just an incidental thing that some random tech does. It's a literal art form, that people spend entire careers honing and develop distinctive signature techniques for. It's no different from painting, or illustration, or sculpture, or anything else. Cinematography is an art form with as many techniques and as elaborate of a 'language' of its own as anything else. When people criticize what the camera's doing, they're criticizing the creative decisions made by an artist, just as they would criticize the decisions made by the character designer, or the concept artists and modelers who worked on the backgrounds, or anything else.
It's also important to recognize that artists generally welcome criticism of their work. It helps us improve and think about how we do things and reconsider and think about our reasoning for making creative decisions. Even when we don't agree with the criticism, it's generally useful food for thought. Criticizing works of art doesn't mean that those critiquing want to take the art away, or for the artist to stop making it. We criticize things because we care about them. Will we always agree on whether our criticisms will make the work better? Of course not. Will those criticisms always prompt actual change? Nope. But that doesn't make the discussion invalid. Critique and discussion of these things keeps the discussion in the public conscious. Maybe it'll make its way to a developer and they'll change things, maybe they won't, but the very act of discussing it is important on its own. Speaking personally, I enjoy it the least when people only have positive things to say about my art, because I'm always striving to improve both as an artist and a person and critique of things I get wrong helps me to do that.
Nobody wants to take away games with sexy characters in them or for them to stop existing. Okay that MIGHT be wrong, but nobody HERE wants to take away games with sexy characters in them or for them to stop existing. The problem isn't that they exist, it's that they're everywhere and becoming more common in certain genres with time. What we refer to as "sexualization" has become so ingrained in our culture that there are instances where people don't even SEE the techniques being used, or less experienced artists use them without even realizing what they're doing. If the sexualization is a flavor that's directed at you, you may notice and enjoy it, or you may overlook it entirely like you might overlook the pretty textures on that rock over there because it's normal and not offputting to you. When you're NOT the target of the sexualization, it can stand out and slap you right in the face when you see it, and it's not a pleasant feeling. Me? I'm the target of most of the sexualization that the medium throws around. But what I always try to do, and what I'd love to see EVERYONE try to do in an ideal world, is try to recognize how certain things might make me feel if I wasn't the target.
In this case it'd make me feel like crap, to be blunt. I know what it feels like to feel like crap, so I'm always down for trying to do what I can to help other people not feel like crap.
On the final point, disagreement is what makes debates and discussions happen, and I don't think anyone's interested in straight up banning dissenting voices, but when you have to resort to claiming that a group of people aren't true gamers in order to try to make your point, it's really time to step back for a minute to think about what caused you to resort to that type of response. We can't come to an understanding of one another, or god forbid even wind up agreeing on anything or convincing one another of something, if we're not willing to at least refrain from direct attacks on those who are arguing against us. I'd really encourage you to keep participating if you can, but I think it'll be important to consider for yourself why you have the stances you have beyond just being naturally put off by the things people are saying because it feels wrong to you. It'll be useful in trying to articulate your arguments when you come back. Even if you don't agree with us, maybe you'll learn something about why we feel the way we do.
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Yeah, objectification is a lot more than just design, design is just the obvious. You can have someone being fully dressed and the camera can make the person objectified simply from how it is shot. That Wonder Woman comparison is a really good example. The exact same clothing, the exact same shot, yet how the camera frames it changes the context.
Finally men can have a place where they can feel welcome for their opinion on gratuitous boobs shots!
Why do you think you are more qualified to speak on how women feel about this subject than the women that are posting in this thread?
On the subject on female character designs, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but Urbosa is a character I think is interesting and worth discussing given the recent talk about design and cameras angles and curious in how females feel about the character. In a way, it could said that her design could have used a bit more clothing but overall, she gives a look of an incredibly athletic character (her exposed parts only further defines her physique) and her appearance overall is a fair big contrast to what we're experiencing in the real world and living in the desert, It's understandable why they wear the amount of clothing without looking ridiculous and the region is consistent for females and males but I think what sets Urbosa apart from a lot of the examples shown is the camera work involved.
In nearly every cutscene she is in she is either striking an authoritative pose or seen to be almost acting like a motherly figure (which is incredibly dependent on camera work). It constantly focuses on her upper body and never excludes her face in any scene. If the camera does a close up, it's always on her face showing her expressions. If the camera views up against her, it's to show her looking down at the player.
I think that's where a huge difference lies. There's a lot of examples in this thread where females where probably just about as much clothing but what makes it so much worse is the camera angles. The part where the girl hits her fist together. It cuts away from her face, it even slightly cuts away from the action as well that it's without a doubt the whole point of that shot is to focus on her chest and the action is the excuse of it.
In nearly every cutscene she is in she is either striking an authoritative pose or seen to be almost acting like a motherly figure (which is incredibly dependent on camera work). It constantly focuses on her upper body and never excludes her face in any scene. If the camera does a close up, it's always on her face showing her expressions. If the camera views up against her, it's to show her looking down at the player.
I think that's where a huge difference lies. There's a lot of examples in this thread where females where probably just about as much clothing but what makes it so much worse is the camera angles. The part where the girl hits her fist together. It cuts away from her face, it even slightly cuts away from the action as well that it's without a doubt the whole point of that shot is to focus on her chest and the action is the excuse of it.
Hi Persephone!
I'm a guy living in Japan.
I see your point and I totally agree that out of place sexualization is definitely annoying, even to me being a white guy (albeit a minority in Japan) and not a feminist myself.
Living in Japan I can see it everywhere.
The only thing that I can say to the defence pf this "system", at least in Japanese games, is that the perception of what's sexy and what's cute is quite different here.
It's also a cultural thing, I guess. It's very rare for a random man here to hit a girl walking with a micro mini-skirt, and to my experience Slut-shaming doesn't exist.
I can see how for (even a girl gamer) here in Japan the bikini mechanic would be "cute" and not sexual.
As this is a controversial topic, please note that this is just my opinion based on my personal experience and not on facts or data, so it may be flawed.
I'm a guy living in Japan.
I see your point and I totally agree that out of place sexualization is definitely annoying, even to me being a white guy (albeit a minority in Japan) and not a feminist myself.
Living in Japan I can see it everywhere.
The only thing that I can say to the defence pf this "system", at least in Japanese games, is that the perception of what's sexy and what's cute is quite different here.
It's also a cultural thing, I guess. It's very rare for a random man here to hit a girl walking with a micro mini-skirt, and to my experience Slut-shaming doesn't exist.
I can see how for (even a girl gamer) here in Japan the bikini mechanic would be "cute" and not sexual.
As this is a controversial topic, please note that this is just my opinion based on my personal experience and not on facts or data, so it may be flawed.
Good to get some perspective from someone who is more exposed to the culture. I'm sure a lot of us are already aware of the cultural differences between Japan and the West, it seems unreasonable to hold Japanese developers/designers to the same cultural standards as Western devs.
People are free to complain about such things but what I don't see are realistic and reasonable suggestions on how to solve this issue.
When hollywood throws the shirtless buff dude onscreen I dont mind. They could be shirtless whole movie, or go full Doctor Manhattan full movie. I wouldnt mind.
I understand people with certain sensibilities might be made uncomfortable by attractive individuals who're fit and beautiful portrayed in a sexualized manner.
But there are those who're just as uncomfortable with the nonsexualised and more prudish portrayals.
The market dictates what is popular. It either embraces or rejects certain portrayals or artist's visions. We can wish X was more popular or Y was less popular. But we cant change the reality.
Of course the option for prudish clothes poses and camera angles can be implemented.
But as famous youtubers complain those who seek censorship often oppose an uncensored version exist even as a nondefault option.
I understand people with certain sensibilities might be made uncomfortable by attractive individuals who're fit and beautiful portrayed in a sexualized manner.
But there are those who're just as uncomfortable with the nonsexualised and more prudish portrayals.
The market dictates what is popular. It either embraces or rejects certain portrayals or artist's visions. We can wish X was more popular or Y was less popular. But we cant change the reality.
Of course the option for prudish clothes poses and camera angles can be implemented.
But as famous youtubers complain those who seek censorship often oppose an uncensored version exist even as a nondefault option.
Jesus... it isn't about people preferring more "prudish" portrayals. It is about many gamers not wanting every female character to be dressed in lingerie and constantly eye fucked by the camera.
She's another victim of exaggerated jiggle physics, as you can see in the gif. She has side-butt and side-boob:
Her costume is so tight in the back that you can see the outline of her buttcheeks:
Ok thenShe's another victim of exaggerated jiggle physics, as you can see in the gif. She has side-butt and side-boob:
Her costume is so tight in the back that you can see the outline of her buttcheeks:
Sometimes banding together and critiquing (note--critiquing, not complaining about) something is the best and most cathartic response to a realistic recognition that there may be no magic wand solution to a widening cultural disconnect. If the objective of discussion of such things was uniformly to see it "fixed" then most discussion of media would never happen to begin with. As someone who's perfectly comfortable indulging in the weirdness that comes from JRPGs these days, I can still appreciate nostalgia for days past and the mourning of a time when people of more diverse backgrounds and lives were able to easily connect with them as a genre.
It doesn't seem like an unreasonable assumption to make when people are complaining about sexualised characters without any suggestions on how to resolve the issue.
We could leave the over sexualized depiction as a nondefault option. Problem is that wouldnt be good enough for many of the critics. Even as an option it cant be tolerated.
Okay. What are you trying to tell us with this besides you want to see more naked men on screen? I mean that's great if that's what you want... But strange.
What on earth. Who here is uncomfortable with attractive people? Who said that??? Attractive people are fine; but I don't need sexually-charged ass in my face when I'm playing games or watching moves all the time.
Am I reading this right? You're worried there aren't ENOUGH exposed sexually attractive people? Because...?
What market? Who accepts what now?
Yeah let's make a "prudes" and "pervs" switch. SIR AND/OR MADAM What are you trying to say????
(I honestly don't understand the second
In no way does something being described as "cute" instead of "sexy" change the fact that Japan has a serious issue with portrayal of women.
Stop viewing women as bags of meat to be exploited for sexual enticement? That seems like a solid first step...
Going by Namco's finest works in the field, we are actually lucky she doesn't have "spandex boob socks" or whatever the hell is what Taki's wearing
Obviously, alternative costumes won't fix things like camera angles, but it is definitely an option that works for me. I've bought games I was on the fence about (like Tales of Berseria) because I knew I'd be able to change characters into better outfits. Not having those costumes as the default would be even better.
Which critics? Tolerated for who? Just how powerful do you think criticism is? If we are such a small minority like you claim, then everything way say in this thread won't effect anything. If there are enough people making these complaints, then the market should be adjusting to this audience and through your own logic, this would be fine. What do you think the end goal even is?
I assume this is more directed at game devs/designers. So how do we stop devs from supposedly viewing women this way? Or at least presenting women to be perceived in such a way.
I can't say I agree with you that sexualised women are just "bags of meat" though, just because they're sexy doesn't mean there isn't more to their character.
I absolutely agree wit you Twig, but I aknowledge the cultural difference. There's no "macho" culture here, and what's sexy in the west may not be sexy here.
To give you an idea, a young pretty boy is more attractive to girls than a muscular 30y old "Nathan Drake".
Going back to he topic, the FFXV bikini mechanic is quite "prude" compared to sexualized game character by Japanese standards here. You have no idea...
And no, I don't support it, but I try to understand where they are coming from.
I find myself living in Japan and playing western games mostly, as to me, even though I'm a white non feminist dude, the over-sexualization is deeply disturbing.
It isn't on the posters here to figure out how to solve this, this is just a discussion thread. Bringing awareness to the issue is significant enough.
apparently we're useless to vent and offer critiques and criticisms in this thread, but at the same time, powerful enough to remove the sexualization in the beloved Japanese games.
Like it's honestly hilarious some of the arguments people keep trotting out in this thread and get subsequently swatted down by people who have seen it too many times before.
Sexualization of either gender does not bother me.
Some arent bothered by such.
Things sell or they dontWhat market? Who accepts what now?
Nondefault means the uncensored version is off by default and must be turned on in the options.
I'm not sure why the burden of fixing the Great Video Game Sexism Problem is being put on a small group of people on an enthusiast gaming forum when we haven't even found a solution (other than taking shifts and tagging in and out) to having to field the same walk-in, walk-out arguments repeatedly, but the OP's certainly developing quite a handy list of go-to responses that are clearly being missed! Maybe it would help if "Read the OP" was in the thread title? I mean, you'd think that'd be a given, but, like, you've got a post a quarter page down from my write-up on criticism that's still operating under the assumption that criticism kills artistic freedom too so I'm not sure it'd help.
I knew my post was too long, someone edit it for me. :(
We really need a "sticky" feature for posts. So we can sticky the OP on top of every page so at the very least they can't say "who has time to go back x number of pages".
When a character is played for sex appeal, and the camera does nothing but leer at them, it gets to a point where it feels like their other traits just aren't that important. If they were the game wouldn't keep ignoring them in favor of highlighting the pure sex appeal of these characters.
As for how we go about enacting a change in the behavior of the devs/designers... I think their own values will need to change. That will come with societal change. That will come with cultural change. However, I think criticism is also extremely important. They need to hear about it from fans, which will hopefully make them reconsider how they frame their female characters.
There is no immediately actionable plan to be put in motion (not one that I can see, at least). Cultural changes come slowly. Painfully slowly, for the most part.
You know as well as I do that even if 'READ THE OP!' was in the title and could somehow be bolded, underlined, and made in red, people would be ignoring it to pull up the same arguments. It's obvious most that come here with an insidious motive. It was the same with the Gamergate thread on the old forum. It's the same here, especially considering the dregs of the internet in VOAT and 4chan seem very much interested in derailing this thread as much as possible.
Fair enough, I misunderstood.
That said, I've also lived in Japan. I've had men try to sell me women ("you can pick out your favorite one") as I walked through the streets of Roppongi. That's not an exaggeration.
There is absolutely a "macho" man problem, too. Otherwise, why would it be so prevalent in Japanese media? The men are the ones out there doing all the hard work. They're often more regressive than the west when it comes to "what makes a good woman" in fiction, especially anime (hint, it's housekeeping and cooking).
Cat calling is just as much a problem in Japan as it is elsewhere. I've seen it in real life. I've seen it in tons of video games and anime. There's no denying it.
I genuinely don't understand why you've clarified twice that you're not a feminist. As if that's something to be ashamed of? I'm baffled.
You are not more worldly or progressive because you're fine with the rare sexualized man while women are unconfortable with the ubiquitous sexualized woman; you're just privileged. You can assure us (and yourself) that you would be fine with society and media sexualizing your gender 24/7/365, but the truth remains that you will never have to face that scenario in real life.
Which is why I would do the same but word it as "READ THE OP OR BAN" and have mods enforce it. Enough is enough.
Yeah, about that... I have two questions for you:
1) Do you believe men and women should be treated equally?
2) Do you believe women are being treated worse than men in modern society?
This is about as helpful as saying we shouldn't donate to poor people because fuck man, you can't erase poverty from the world ever so why even bother.
Try to be a bit more tolerant of other people's views. No need to assume people's motives unless they give you more reason to believe they're not actually interested in a discussion.
User warned: trolling, literal objectification
Here's the thing. Women happen to have such bodies, but they're not the only ones with said bodies, there are works of art that share said body type. Statues, dolls, drawings, all manner of art shares possession of said bodies. The female body design is public domain, it belongs to no group.
Eventually there will likely be fully functional indistinguishable objects whose sole purpose is to serve and please. Barring legal issues, these objects will share the same human body design used by humans.
If I happened to look like a broom, it matters little if I predate the broom. The broom would be an object that just so happens shares my appearance. When people talk of brooms or use brooms, I shouldn't be offended by such.
Regarding the feminist thing: to show that you can be annoyed by sexualization and support genuine ideas without joining a movement. There are some feminist ideas that I disagree with and some that I agree with, but I'd like to keep my personal views out of this topic.
Regarding Roppongi: that's a place made to entertain western tourists. Not my favorite place really. If you were to visit back I would avoid going there, unless you are into western style's clubbing.
Regarding the "macho" thing, I think I made myself misunderstood, I probably poor worder it.
I was merely referring to the difference in what's perceived as attractive and not here.
The muscular Nathan Drake 30y old "cool" dude is not as popular as the pretty, thin, adolescent boy (Such as most late FF protagonists).
There's also a similar difference in what's perceived as sexy and not in women here.
Again, this is my personal perception and it mat be flawed.
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Guess what? I have given tolerance to opposite views. But more often then not, it pisses me and basically any of the women on ERA to see dumbasses waltz into this thread, pull out the same old hat arguments that are listed in the OP of this thread, make no attempt to back up their arguments (newsflash, they're more often then not here to troll and derail) and get banned. Process repeats itself.
I, and many others, are sick of it.
By having this very conversation. Several devs have already expressed being thoughtful of how they presented women in their games after reading discussions online, especially back on GAF. This has been mentioned over and over in this thread, by mods even, every time a new poster came in here thinking they have all figured out, like you, without reading the rest of the thread.
But that's not even the purpose of this thread. The purpose is crystal clear, it's right there in the OP and even the title itself: it's to inform men (those that may care at least) of why women are unconfortable with sexualization. To get men to understand and hopefully empathize with their situation and their point of view. This is the first, crucial step in alleviating the issue. There can be no solutions if nobody cares.
What Weltall Zero said. And we can't even get that, considering how many men in this topic go 'uh, #notallmen' and try to deny that sexism, and by extension sexualization, doesn't exist in the gaming industry.
Newsflash, it does. And more often then not, if you don't believe it, you're deliberately being obtuse in spite of tons of ancedotal and hard evidence.
Newsflash, it does. And more often then not, if you don't believe it, you're deliberately being obtuse in spite of tons of ancedotal and hard evidence.
I'm sorry, just so we're clear, what is your argument again? That the woman's body itself is an object therefore we shouldn't be offended by it?
Because if it is, those statues and objects ARE criticized, both in an artistic sense and in a public sense. Which is what we can do. No one here can do anything to actively censor these "objects".
Also, really? Don't be offended by the female body AND literally objectifying it?
That's fair enough, I can see how those devs that do acknowledge these things may make changes to their games or how they approach game design. The problem I then have is that these devs become concerned of sexualising any character at all. I'm fine with a middle ground where there's more of a balance between characters that present in a sexualised way and ones that do not, I don't think a sexualised character in itself is a bad thing though.
Bookmarking this post for the next time someone asks me what "disingenuity" means.
Still catching up on this thread but just wanted to say that this post is fantastic, thank you.
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